Is full-on classical education even possible with LDs?

[Bianca]

I've had my three boys in either online or alternative public school for the past two years.  This year we're going to switch back to homeschooling with the younger two.  My youngest is well beyond grade level and will probably do great with a classical curriculum.  But my middle child seems to have great difficulty with speaking, reading and writing.  He hasn't been evaluated, but I know there's something going on.  I asked for an evaluation when he was in 2nd grade (public school) but his teacher didn't think he needed it.  I should have insisted. 

 

Anyway, is it even reasonable to try classical education with a child that struggles as much as he does?  If I do, I know I'll have to tweak it considerably until it probably won't resemble classical education very much.  But I want this for him.  I want him to learn to reason logically and to love books and foreign languages and art and music and to be interested in the whole wide world, not just the world of the internet, video games and Netflix.  Maybe that's totally unreasonable and I should just do what's easy.  I don't know.

 

He's going into 9th grade and he's not even remotely ready for that level of learning.  But I don't want him to be held back for years trying to catch up on all the things he should learn in a classical curriculum. 

 

How do you do it??  How much do you tweak?  What do you sacrifice and what do you stick with?  What curricula have you found that works for your LD kids?   

[Crimson Wife]

Yes, I think it's possible but you'll have to use materials at your child's functioning level rather than what a typical classical high school program looks like.

[Bianca]

So could I have him do course work that's at a lower level but still call it high school, make him a transcript, etc.  Or should I hold him back?

[PeterPan]

...  If I do, I know I'll have to tweak it considerably until it probably won't resemble classical education very much.  But I want this for him.  I want him to learn to reason logically and to love books and foreign languages and art and music and to be interested in the whole wide world, not just the world of the internet, video games and Netflix. 

...

How do you do it??  How much do you tweak?  What do you sacrifice and what do you stick with?  What curricula have you found that works for your LD kids?   

 

Have you considered going ahead and getting evals?  Honestly, it might make your efforts more targeted.  My ds has all 3 SLDs with a gifted IQ.  Because I give him extensive interventions and tons of technology to bridge the gap, he's kind of fascinating.  But it seems like maybe you're describing a situation with more going on?

 

See those goals don't require a WTM approach.  My ds loves books, and he even likes the spanish words his sister teaches him.  He enjoys art (things he creates, today this really interesting bird), music (Hobo Jim), and he uses streaming videos to learn about the outside world (history, science, geography, etc.).  Yes he has an ASD label as part of his mix, but we just let his obsession be in all the things we're doing.  

 

So when you say it would require a lot of changing, I would tell you WTM isn't even worth bothering with, not at this stage.  Think about your ACTUAL GOALS and then solicit ways to work on them.  Writing?  With his SLDs, there are some particular curricula and technologies that might help him.  These are worthy goals, but the methodology of WTM is SO boring, so in the box (I say as one who has the 1st and 3rd editions, who was here before the old boards were the old boards, from way back when the pages turned, lol).  It's not that the concepts are entirely bad, but they're just stiff and stuck.  Our kids are so much more multi-faceted and need more flexing.  SWB would tell you to flex if you were in person, and I will say it is not wise to get in a trap of making a kid do inappropriate work.  Sometimes it's not even about whether it's too "hard" but whether it's not created enough, not connected to their interests, not letting them use their passions, making the focus someone else's sequence but not the dc's passions, etc.

 

There is no educational approach that's going to make him what he is not.  What you want to do is let him be all he can be.  It may be he's about to sprout.  Given his age, it might be time to look at mentoring, volunteering, relationships where someone can start to see his gifts and what he can give to the world and then use your homeschooling to give him time to pursue that.  

 

Evals would help you target your efforts better.  There are some fine high school level materials (Walch Powerbasics, for instance, but there are others) that drop the reading level and get it done.  Or you can use audiobooks.  Or consider a vocational school.  Evals can help you with realistic goals.  

 

If you're going to grade adjust, yes between 8th and 9th would be a good time.  Does he have goals or things he wants to do?  Does HE want this change?  Does he have any especial interests you need to work within?

[Crimson Wife]

So could I have him do course work that's at a lower level but still call it high school, make him a transcript, etc. Or should I hold him back?

If it's equivalent to a general ed diploma, I would call it high school. My alma mater had a general ed track that satisfies the bare minimum graduation requirements like 3 years of math including Algebra 1 spread out over 2 years and geometry.

 

In addition to Walch Powerbasics, also check out AGS.

[Crimson Wife]

DP

[Bianca]

I lost my post, so this will likely be shorter.

 

OhElizabeth, thanks for that.  I needed to hear that.  Sometimes I get so worried about the fact that he doesn't learn like other kids and doesn't have any interest in the things I wish he would learn.  His interest lies almost exclusively in the realm of PC gaming and gaming PCs.  In fact, he's gardening all summer to earn gaming PC components so he can build his own.  I support him all the way in this because I think he's learning valuable skills.  I'm trying to also interest him in game design and computer programming.   

 

He's really smart.  He just doesn't seem very smart when he tries to express himself because of whatever cognitive problems he's got going on.  And he doesn't learn much outside of his narrow field of interest other than what he's forced to read (which he promptly forgets most of the time anyway). 

 

I'll have to see if our insurance might cover an evaluation.  Likely not, but it's worth a shot. 

[PeterPan]

If you're in the US, federal law REQUIRES the public school to evaluate.  If your insurance won't cover private evals, then go through the ps.

 

If programming isn't his interest with computers, what about other practical aspects that lead to jobs?  I heard about one boy with strong obsessions like that who ended up managing an Apple store.  Or maybe working Geek Squad at Best Buy?  Maybe get him some interships?  I wouldn't try to make him interested in the aspects he's not into but would find where his interests actually lead in the field.

 

And yes, let's release the guilt and do right by our kids.   :grouphug: 

[Bianca]

If you're in the US, federal law REQUIRES the public school to evaluate.  If your insurance won't cover private evals, then go through the ps.

 

If programming isn't his interest with computers, what about other practical aspects that lead to jobs?  I heard about one boy with strong obsessions like that who ended up managing an Apple store.  Or maybe working Geek Squad at Best Buy?  Maybe get him some interships?  I wouldn't try to make him interested in the aspects he's not into but would find where his interests actually lead in the field.

 

And yes, let's release the guilt and do right by our kids.   :grouphug: 

 

Yep, those jobs sound just about right for him.  I just don't want him to be limited to something like that.  You're right about not trying to force interest in things.  I try to be casual about it.  Hopefully he doesn't feel pressured.  But I want him to know what's out there in the computer field.

[Mrs. Tharp]

Yes, classical education can be done with LDs. The book Simply Classical, by Cheryl Swope, would give you an idea of how to going about doing this for a high school age student, where to start, how to modify, how to decide what to include, etc.  She would argue that the approach is beneficial even starting at the high school level, but you would need to determine the possible benefits/drawbacks for yourself. If you want to post questions to her directly, she is over at the Memoria Press forums, under "Struggling Students" and can give you advice specific to your situation. I also recommend that you get him an evaluation, as it will give you a much clearer idea of what's going on as well as his current level of functioning, which will be crucial when you start to select curriculum.

 

Eta: Cheryl Swope, not Cheryl Lowe! Too many Cheryls over at Memoria Press.

[Bianca]

Yes, classical education can be done with LDs. The book Simply Classical, by Cheryl Lowe, would give you an idea of how to going about doing this for a high school age student, where to start, how to modify, how to decide what to include, etc.  She would argue that the approach is beneficial even starting at the high school level, but you would need to determine the possible benefits/drawbacks for yourself. If you want to post questions to her directly, she is over at the Memoria Press forums, under "Struggling Students" and can give you advice specific to your situation. I also recommend that you get him an evaluation, as it will give you a much clearer idea of what's going on as well as his current level of functioning, which will be crucial when you start to select curriculum.

 

That looks excellent but, oh my goodness!  Why is it so expensive??  Amazon has it for 54.95!  I would love to read it though.

 

[Mrs. Tharp]

Wow! Way too expensive!!! Memoria Press has it for $25, e-book for $22.

 

http://www.memoriapress.com/curriculum/educational-resources-special-needs/simply-classical

[Storygirl]

Bianca, if you plan to have your son take the SATs or other standardized tests in high school, and you think he will need accommodations, you will need to show a documented history of need over a long period of time, so having official evaluations and getting them done sooner rather than later might be a good idea.

 

I will say that I have never been a completely die-hard classical homeschooler but have always been more eclectic. I did start out with some classical things for my oldest that I realized would never work for my younger children, who have some learning challenges. For example, the grammar stage is so tied to memorization, but memorization is a weakness for them, so spending all of our time with that method daily would have been a disaster. I chose things to use with my youngest three that I thought would work for them and didn't worry about whether the materials fit into a classical definition or not.

 

I think that you could accomplish your stated goals without using classical curriculum. I also think that you could find some classical materials that would be a good fit for your son. But I suspect that trying to fit him into the WTM framework, given the struggles that you say that he has, might do him a disservice and would probably be frustrating for you as his teacher as well.

 

It sounds like he has been struggling for a long time. I think if you find the root reasons for the challenges that you will be better able to educate him through his remaining years of school. I think if you head into high school without a plan that is designed to both play to his strengths and remediate his weaknesses that he is going to dislike learning. Which is not your goal at all, I know. It's hard to figure out what to do.

[PeterPan]

Yep, those jobs sound just about right for him.  I just don't want him to be limited to something like that.  You're right about not trying to force interest in things.  I try to be casual about it.  Hopefully he doesn't feel pressured.  But I want him to know what's out there in the computer field.

I'm saying this really gently, but you need to separate your grief from what's good for him.  As a parent you're going to grieve over things not being the way you thought, but evals can help you move on to being realistic and pro-active.

 

If he can earn a living wage and is happy, is there an issue?  Is there ID or something else going on that would qualify him for disability services?  Do you not anticipate him being able to make a living wage or live independently?

[Bianca]

I'm saying this really gently, but you need to separate your grief from what's good for him.  As a parent you're going to grieve over things not being the way you thought, but evals can help you move on to being realistic and pro-active.

 

If he can earn a living wage and is happy, is there an issue?  Is there ID or something else going on that would qualify him for disability services?  Do you not anticipate him being able to make a living wage or live independently?

 

Oh, I know he'll probably do fine.  I just want him to understand what education can do for him.  I don't want him to get to a stage where he's really frustrated that he didn't do the kind of high school work that would help him get into college or tech school. 

 

He's capable of doing most conventional high school curriculum, I think.  In spite of his discomfort with reading, he still manages.  I just don't want it to be so uncomfortable or discouraging for him anymore.  I want to find a way of doing it that removes some of the obstacles so he can truly enjoy it.  Or at least some of it.  And yes, I'm convinced I've got to get him evaluated one way or another. 

 

[Bianca]

Wow! Way too expensive!!! Memoria Press has it for $25, e-book for $22.

 

http://www.memoriapress.com/curriculum/educational-resources-special-needs/simply-classical

 

Thanks!  That's definitely going on my reading list.  I've already read some of the samples provided on Amazon and it looks very interesting.

 

[displace]

Just wanted to add the Drs. Eide and Eide's son is homeschooling classically, 2e, with giftedness and dyslexia/dysgraphia. They had an old blog I'll try to look up.

[PeterPan]

Even though that's the case about the Eide's, the op has no certainty that's her situation.  She could have a different or more complex set of labels. In fact, with what she's describing, I would think she probably does.  She also may be working with a different IQ.  My kids are almost a standard deviation apart for IQ, and while it doesn't sound like much, they function differently as far as academic drive.  

 

I also notice in our home that starting accommodations and technology use sooner makes it more natural.  My dh could use a lot more technology than he does, but he's just set in his ways.  I've seen people saying their high schoolers were the same way, that by that point they couldn't get them to make all the changes.  My dd was in middle grades when we started bringing in technology heavily, and she struggled but made the shift.  For my ds, who started young, technology is sort of normal.  In fact, he seldom touches a paper book.  To him the use of technology is normal, ubiquitous.  For him I anticipate no problem ramping up special software, etc.  

 

So the age of the student makes a difference, and I don't think we should feel guilty about it.  It is what it is.  I think it's important to get evals and see the student very honestly and let him be what he is and become what he's becoming.  That stage involves a lot of grief, when we realize some things we dreamed for them might never happen.  I also think we need to think long-term.  Some things don't happen now but happen eventually.  My uncle is a very hands-on person and was what we'd probably, in hindsite, label as VERY ADHD.  He worked factory and entry level jobs for many years, till a company finally recognized some potential in the job he was working in the factory.  They sent him back to college for a degree in engineering, and now he travels internationally consulting all over for factories in his niched field.  But I guarantee you his mama sweated bullets for a lot of years wondering how he would turn out.  :)

 

Lots of people can testify to this, that things will work out.  I think if you want to diversify his interests, when he has a particular obsession, you might do better to go through the thing he's interested in.  Let him blog about his interest and call it writing.  If he likes to read magazines on his interest, let him write reviews of new products, post feedback online, etc.  Let him participate in discussion boards.  That's all writing!  Let him study science related to his passion, even if it's very niched.  Get him an internship.  History of the development of the interest.  (computers across time? absolutely)  Let him do National History Day, doing a documentary (computers, tech!) using his perseverative interest.  Then he's doing history about what he likes.  Art?  Graphic design, typography and the development of fonts, hello this is art!!  Apple's art across the years, or books about advertising.  There's a neat one that got popular a while back that is very accessible.   

 

There comes a point where you CANNOT fight obsession and perseverative interests and need to roll with it.  

 

There is no reason why he *has* to go through a traditional set of texts.  He can, and you could even offer him the choice.  Lay out the credits he needs and offer him different ways he could approach them and let HIM decide how he wants to earn them, kwim?  A credit is material covered, unit is time spent.  So you can do a get 'er done text and material covered is credit earned.  Or you can do a really alternative approach, and time spent is unit earned.  This is totally standard stuff.  Lee Binz talks about this on her site and free workshops (awesome, highly recommend), and what she says jives with what we did at the University where I worked evaluating transcripts.  You have total freedom to do this.  Maybe you didn't know that and that would be a piece of the puzzle to give you peace?

 

So yes, if you want to make alternative ways, that's how you do it, by keeping track of time spent and then gathering those hours to make credits.  You're taking his non-traditional work and making it make more sense to a traditional system.  It's FINE.  Then you can use his interests, and his passions, his ideas on how he wants to do things.  Go farther out of the box than you ever dreamed, way farther.  It will do more for him to do one thing WITH ENGAGEMENT than to do hours and hours of stuff he hates and forgets.  

[Heathermomster]

Socratic type questioning and exposure to excellent literature is never a bad thing for any student; however, not all kids respond well to classical ed written output requirements. The seat work alone makes me crazy plus classical ed as prescribed touches upon all of my child's organic brain weaknesses. It would not be fair or sensible to attempt classical ed with my eldest without accommodations.  

 

Here's a list of accommodations that we use, and I make no pretense that what we do is classical. DS types everything and uses mindmaps to outline. DS listens to audio books at a high rate of speed. His history timeline is kept on the computer.  Instead of studying Latin, he studied Latin/Greek roots.  DS uses Quizlet and prefers hands-on type activities.  

 

I pulled DS from the classroom beginning in the 7th grade. During that year, the focus was learning to write and study skills. The focus after 8th grade has been to continue exploring study strategies, writing, and incorporating technology in a way that is amenable to his everyday living. In the classroom, he uses an Echo Smartpen and types notes and tests.

 

When possible, I attempt to exploit his strengths and direct his energies towards school related projects.  DS loves computers and computer graphics for gaming. During informal logic, DS used the skills he gained from computer graphics technology to create print advertising that demonstrated logical fallacies. In the past, DS has presented slide shows to his father that demonstrated his understanding of mitosis and meiosis. DS has built a gaming computer with Win 7 and performed an Ubuntu sw build on his Netbook. Some students create blogs and discuss their projects and interests instead of writing about academic subjects, which is fine.  Ultimately, I want DS to learn to pursue his interests and become a lifelong student that expresses himself well.

 

 

 

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

I really like all the "plain English" side-by-side translations now available for literary classics. The "No Fear" series from SparkNotes has volumes for Shakespeare, Beowulf, Canterbury Tales, etc. http://www.sparknotes.com/nofear/lit/

 

The EDCON Classic Worktexts series is another good one (though it doesn't include the original texts, only the simplified retelling) http://www.rainbowresource.com/prodlist.php?subject=Reading%2FLiterature/6&category=EDCON+Classic+Worktexts+%28Bring+the+Classics+to+Life%29/1017

 

I've been using them with younger students but they would totally work for a high school student whose LD's make reading the original difficult. You've got to adapt to your child's capabilities. I don't know if my youngest DD will ever have the language skills to complete a college prep English literature course. But I still want her exposed to all the wonderful stories that make up the traditional canon.

[FairProspects]

I had to separate the concepts of classical education being text driven and classical education as an engagement with Great Books and big ideas.

 

My boys can absolutely keep up with the latter and in fact may have more interesting, creative connections when they encounter the ideas due to their processing style, but they are not going to engage with text and have a text driven education in the same way a NT learner does. They may read the same books and produce similar output, but it is going to be accomplished through the use of some tech or specialized techniques for outlining/mind-mapping. I would actually go so far as to suggest that classical education, and perhaps neo-classical education as well, are limiting here, because engagement with the ideas and concepts is what matters to me more so than the format in which students access those ideas. They are just as interested as the next kid in Beowulf and Odysseus, but the format they use to write or express it is different. :)

[Heathermomster]

I had to separate the concepts of classical education being text driven and classical education as an engagement with Great Books and big ideas.

 

My boys can absolutely keep up with the latter and in fact may have more interesting, creative connections when they encounter the ideas due to their processing style, but they are not going to engage with text and have a text driven education in the same way a NT learner does. They may read the same books and produce similar output, but it is going to be accomplished through the use of some tech or specialized techniques for outlining/mind-mapping. I would actually go so far as to suggest that classical education, and perhaps neo-classical education as well, are limiting here, because engagement with the ideas and concepts is what matters to me more so than the format in which students access those ideas. They are just as interested as the next kid in Beowulf and Odysseus, but the format they use to write or express it is different. :)

The format that our kiddos use to express themselves is different and awesome. We are also compelled to step away from print materials and get creative with the hands on projects and documentary type work.

 

I meet parents all the time that have turned their kids off of classical ed because they did not adjust the materials to suit their NT learners by restricting everything to book, pencil, and paper. Not all kiddos respond well to that.

[Bianca]

Thank you all so much for sharing.  Every comment is helpful to me.  I've struggled so long with this and I'm so ready to try to make things easier and more enjoyable for him. 

 

OhElizabeth, thank you so much for your input about the transcript.  That is actually very helpful.  I think I read years ago about non-traditional transcripts, but I guess I hadn't thought about it in awhile.  That sounds like a great option because it validates his interests and shows him that they are important, not just a side issue.  Also, I had had that idea myself about encouraging him to blog about gaming and gaming PCs.  I'm a blogger myself and I know it's a wonderful way to improve writing skill, especially with the editing software available at Wordpress.