MCT or CAP W&R for 5 & 6 yo?

[eternallytired]

I have a DS6 (officially K) who is passionate about writing and a DD5 who is determined to do everything her brother does.  This year we're working through IEW's Bible Heroes.  I loved it for the first half of the year--the vocabulary, the gentle introduction to grammar, the scaffolded approach to writing, the occasional games--but right now it's feeling stale.  Perhaps it's because we're in the midst of the 12 weeks on story sequence, where we do the same story for three weeks at a time (first beginning, then middle, then end).  After the first six weeks even DS was complaining.  Even the games are feeling a little stale and repetitive right now, though.  I had purchased ATFF to use once we finish BH, but at the moment I'm thinking we could use a break and a new perspective before doing more IEW. 

 

I've looked at both MCT and CAP W&R and figured they were for older kids, but then I realized that the program we're currently using is supposed to be for 2nd-3rd grade and the kids are having no trouble with any aspect of it, so maybe the other programs wouldn't be such a stretch.  Both DS6 and DD5 are reading solidly (probably late 3rd/early 4th grade level?) and both have the stamina to write at least a paragraph at a time (did two books of Getty-Dubay last spring and are working on generic cursive now at their request). 

 

I love the extent of what's offered in MCT, but I get mixed reviews on whether kids this age could handle it.  It sounds like maybe the grammar and vocab would be fine but perhaps the writing and poetry would not?  And W&R looks like it has a similar concept to IEW--summaries, focus on various strategies to amplify/dress up writing--with a slightly different approach that might be refreshing.  Any thoughts on which would be a better fit at this point?  Or other recommendations?

[EKS]

My son, who has always been 2-3 years ahead in language arts (and more in reading), did very well with MCT Island level when he was 7-8yo (2nd grade by age).  He had done Growing with Grammar 3 the year before, and while he was able to do the exercises easily, he didn't retain anything.  With MCT everything just clicked. 

 

I'm not sure if he would have done as well with MCT if we had done it earlier.

 

 

[Five More Minutes]

You know, I don't know if I would select either of those programs for the students you've described ... yet.

 

I used MCT island with my LA-advanced student at 7 y/o, and it was great. To give you some context, I chose this because her reading was exceptionally high and she needed to think about words; however, her writing stamina was on-level when writing for school. MCT is designed with gifted students in mind, and it presupposes high reading levels. She found the writing exercises challenging. One thing I observed is that MCT does not teach writing; it just stretches kids in writing.

 

With that same child, I didn't start W&R 1 with her until she was 8. It was a good fit at that age, although she may have been able to use it earlier had it been available.

 

What did work for us at ages 5/6? WWE. The program really built her stamina and ability to write logically, and was painless.

 

 

[eternallytired]

Thanks for the responses!  Guess I need to go do more digging.  So far everything I've looked at either seems too basic/repetitive/boring-as-all-get-out or too advanced.

 

Lynnita, what aspect of WWE did you think was particularly helpful?  And what level would you recommend?  I had written off WWE because a) lots of folks have mentioned that it's rather repetitive/boring and b) I had the impression it was simply narration, dictation, and copywork in the early levels.  We've been doing narrations informally for a few years now, did dictation as part of AAS1 and moreso AAS2 (taking a break this spring), and used the first half of Bible Heroes as narration/copywork (while they were developing their spelling, I had them narrate the stories as I wrote, and they copied my writing).  Would WWE have something new to offer?

[Kerileanne99]

Just an alternate view:

Normally I would say that MCT is very advanced for use with a 5 year old...most kids simply wouldn't be ready for that level of output, and they WILL not get the full gist if they are not writing efficiently and confidentially. But I am using it with my dd5, only after finishing WWE1 and the first 5 levels of AAS. It sounds as though you are doing much of the same.

As long as they are comfortable writing at least a full paragraph working for more I have to say I LOVE the program. It has really made my dd's work blossom. And MCT can be done as slowly as necessary.

Here is the thing: for kids in this position you MIGHT find something that works or bridges a gap for a couple of months, but it is often expensive and they outgrow it way too rapidly. I think MCT with its gentle, 'storylike' format is a perfect fit given the above as it gives them room to grow and thrive...

 

It can be done as a whole program or in parts, which really helps too.

And, as I am sure you are already doing, it can always be set aside for a bit if it isn't a great fit!

[8filltheheart]

Do you feel at all confident to teach writing without a writing curriculum?  Since you are feeling stifled, perhaps the best option would be to simply let writing take a new direction with more creativity.  They could put together a family newsletter to send out to family members.  They could create little report or chapter books.  They could create newspapers with articles about history or science topics they are studying.   There is absolutely NOTHING saying that they need to use a writing program.

 

I have never used a writing program with my children.  These posts describe a general sequence that I take my kids through with a general veering off for rabbit trails and creativity.

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/239259-bringing-karens-mention-of-essay-writing-to-a-new-thread/?do=findComment&comment=2363522 

[Five More Minutes]

 

Lynnita, what aspect of WWE did you think was particularly helpful?  And what level would you recommend?  I had written off WWE because a) lots of folks have mentioned that it's rather repetitive/boring and b) I had the impression it was simply narration, dictation, and copywork in the early levels.  We've been doing narrations informally for a few years now, did dictation as part of AAS1 and moreso AAS2 (taking a break this spring), and used the first half of Bible Heroes as narration/copywork (while they were developing their spelling, I had them narrate the stories as I wrote, and they copied my writing).  Would WWE have something new to offer?

 

I get how WWE can come across as repetitive. We had to bail before the end of WWE 3 because I needed a break from the routine (and conveniently that was when W&R was released!). For *me* as a teacher (I like some structure; I like open-and-go) and for my particular student (she likes some structure to her day; she balked at writing a lot in the class, but would write pages and pages of her own stories), WWE worked well. I think because lessons are never very long, and in WWE2 summary skills are built so carefully, I saw her really develop her writing with it. I'm observing the same thing with my very different younger dd.

 

But that's me, with this kid. :-) 

 

To give you a bit more info. about WWE, Day 1 is spent developing a summary of a passage that the instructor writes down; Day 2 is copywork; Day 3 dictation; Day 4 a summary plus dictation from that summary. We also practiced these skills across the curriculum. If you decide to try WWE, I would say Level 2 was the most important for us in terms of building skills.

 

I've also been using Killgallon interspersed with our grammar/writing programs as well. I think I started using it when she was about 8 y/o, after we had done MCT Island.

 

I've dabbled with BraveWriter, which I just love in concept. A lot of people here have been really successful with it. I couldn't make it work for me, although every year I swear I'm going to try again! It's definitely worth checking out.

 

HTH!

[eternallytired]

8FillTheHeart--While I am completely capable of teaching writing sans curriculum, I'm noticing that things don't get done consistently around here unless they're open-and-go.  I had high aspirations for utilizing BFSU and making my own social studies material, but those died a short way into our school year.  :-/  I'm still hoping to resurrect those for the future (we're officially only Kindy, so it's okay, right? And I'd dearly love not to shell out for EVERY subject), but I think it's going to take a lot of pre-planning and effort to get those ready to go, so I don't think I dare add another create-your-own type subject.  I also don't just want to drop writing because a) it's a subject they like and b) I hate to lose what they've learned so far by just dropping the subject.

 

Lynnita, thanks so much for detailing WWE for me.  I'll have to give WWE2 a close look and see if it'll fit.  Perhaps it will work well for us to strengthen the skills we've been learning this year in preparation for something more challenging another year down the line.

 

Kerileanne99, how long do you think it will take your daughter to get through MCT's Island level?  Is there any portion of it you are putting off until later, or one you wish you'd waited on?  I have no problem adjusting programs to meet our needs--either adjusting pacing or substituting activities--but I don't want to get most of the way through and think, "I sure wish I'd waited--they'd have gotten far more out of this in a year or two!"  (Especially at that price...)

[Incognito]

MCT Island and CAP are very different in their approaches.  There is a very extensive sample of the CAP W&R stuff online - 

what you see is what it is.  

 

I'd say at a very basic level that MCT Island is like FLL but more conceptual/fun, less rote; and CAP W&R is like WWE.  So if you are familiar with the other programs, you know that people often use them together and they fulfil different purposes. 

 

FWIW, if you prefer open-and-go, you need to be ready for the way MCT Island is not broken up for you into predetermined chunks.  It does work fine to just open and do parts, but there isn't a delineated start/stop for each day like there is for FLL, WWE, and CAP W&R.

 

HTH

[SeaConquest]

We are finishing up WWE1 and will move to WWE2 in the fall with my (newly) 6-year old Ker. We plan to add MCT Island in the fall (1st), but will likely save CAP W&R and TC until 2nd (so, age 7-8). I'm not sure if our plan is helpful, but I though I would share because my son's reading level, stamina, and age are about the same as yours.   

[Kerileanne99]

[quote name="eternallytired" post="6194274" timestamp="1424200494

 

Kerileanne99, how long do you think it will take your daughter to get through MCT's Island level? Is there any portion of it you are putting off until later, or one you wish you'd waited on? I have no problem adjusting programs to meet our needs--either adjusting pacing or substituting activities--but I don't want to get most of the way through and think, "I sure wish I'd waited--they'd have gotten far more out of this in a year or two!" (Especially at that price...)

 

Whew, that is hardto say because we are doing a very eclectic mix of LA--and I am purposely trying to stretch it out as much as possible:) it is for this reason that we alternate WWE2, but analyze the sentences and apply more of a MCT style along with the regular dictation and copywork, which also doubles as her 'fun' cursive practice.

We finished Grammar Island which didn't take too long because of all our previous grammar work. Sentence Island I am determined to stretch along with Building Language which she loves. But she has also done an informal Greek/Latin roots study through a handful of resources such as workbooks and games, so there right now is a lot of overlap in programs/materials she is using...and AAS7 has them as well. However, she is learning to construct much higher quality sentences because of it!

As far as writing, this is the best way we can slow down. On AAS days she takes the 6 words from the writing station and creates a story using them, creating a story web and then picks a couple of sentences to analyze before illustrating the journal. This is time consuming so is all she usually does with math.

Other days she will choose MCT...

The one thing I will say I think she will get more out of later is a Music of the Hemispheres. Whilst we do a bit with the mechanics of poetry during our reading and memory work (she really likes to memorize poems!) I want to wait on much of it. We have looked at many ideas and literary devices, but just because she knows what say, similes and metaphors and descriptive language are along with say, iambic pentameter? I do NOT think she is really appreciating the language of poetry as a whole. Nor is she fully absorbing the choices of the poems. So I have pulled it out a few times but am really just using it for ideas at the moment, preferring to just expose her to great poetry more appropriate for her and mention some ideas as we go. Plenty of time for more later!

 

I will say that if you are looking for something open and go, do the next thing? MCT is not really going to be it:) I feel like the whimsy of it is great, but definitely it is more work than I had planned. Part of it is the way we have adapted it for dd, but much of it is just the nature of the program!

[eternallytired]

Incognito, thanks for the comparison.  Since I'm so passionate about writing, I'm hoping to use multiple different methods to help refine and stretch what my kids are capable of as they grow.  (This feels specially vital since I feel like strong writing skills make such a positive impression in arenas like higher ed and the workforce.) I just can't imagine utilizing only one way of teaching writing--but maybe that's just because I've turned into a curriculum junkie. :tongue_smilie:

 

Monique, thanks for letting me know what your plans are.  After looking through W&R again, I think I will definitely stave that one off a while longer, probably after MCT like you and Lynnita suggested. 

 

Now to decide whether to use a filler like WWE for a while or continue with another IEW theme book or jump into MCT very slowly when we finish Bible Heroes.  Leaning toward waiting until they are 6 & 7 for MCT, but I'm still debating.  Sometimes I think I go hunting for new curricula just to provide myself more opportunity to agonize...

[eternallytired]

This is what I get for starting a reply and then walking away from the computer.  Thanks for all your thoughts, Kerileanne99!  I think you're reinforcing my leaning to wait juuuust a little longer (if nothing else, to wade through the material and decide how to pace it--though I've seen a couple schedules on here that might be handy).

[Kerileanne99]

This is what I get for starting a reply and then walking away from the computer. Thanks for all your thoughts, Kerileanne99! I think you're reinforcing my leaning to wait juuuust a little longer (if nothing else, to wade through the material and decide how to pace it--though I've seen a couple schedules on here that might be handy).

I hope you find what you are looking for!

I will say that if you would like to add in just some grammar to your own program you might take a look at Easy Grammar. It makes a nice companion to a writing program, especially since you are doing AAS already. It is very, very open and go and is just a get-it-done program. I actually bought it because Alex wanted something more independent before MCT and for workbook-y kids it is just a solid no frills setup.

[LTBernard]

I have come across this thread while trying to research DS6's language arts for next year.  We have covered both FLL1 and FLL2.  We used Spelling Power this year, but most likely won't next year.

I have thought about using FLL3, Brave Writer (jot it down), some parts of MCT, AAS1 and also WWE.  I know I don't need all of this, but wonder what the best combination is.  Any thoughts?

[Jackie]

I don't know about the "best" combination, but we're using a combination of MCT Island level and BraveWriter's lifestyle stuff and Jot It Down for DD5.

 

We started out with Grammar Island, while adding in regular Poetry Teas. We now juggle the rest of Island level, continue Poetry Teas, do one fairy tale monthly for the fairy tale project from JiD, and occasionally incorporate another JiD project. We do one chunk of MCT weekly, turn our afternoon snack time into a Poetry Tea once every other week, and do something writing-focused (usually from JiD) once a week.

[SeaConquest]

For DS6, our LA plan next year (1st grade) is to do MCT Island, WWE2, R&S Spelling 3, New American Cursive, Mosdos Opal, and Junior Great Books 3 &4. It's probably ambitious, but we will see how it goes. We are saving W&R, TC, and Killgallon for 2nd. 

[eternallytired]

For DS6, our LA plan next year (1st grade) is to do MCT Island, WWE2, R&S Spelling 3, New American Cursive, Mosdos Opal, and Junior Great Books 3 &4. It's probably ambitious, but we will see how it goes. We are saving W&R, TC, and Killgallon for 2nd. 

 

Have you used R&S Spelling yet?  I'm wondering how it would be for this age, since some people say it's difficult and wouldn't work to put an advanced speller in at a young age.  We did AAS 1&2 last fall; I bought 3, but the kids wanted a break from spelling.  I'm going to try to slog through 3 with them, but I really think it's overkill and wish I could find something that would similarly reaffirm the phonics we never learned without taking so much time and effort from me--especially since spelling doesn't seem to be a weak area.

 

If it's helpful to PP, we ended up going with WWE2 for DD this spring.  I now own MCT and plan to start it in the fall; after looking through it, I think we will be ready at that point.  We'll also add spelling back into the mix a few days a week, since the kids do so much writing that I really think we ought to.  I've not used FLL, so I can't comment on that one.  If I were you, I'd probably go for MCT, add AAS if you're not already doing spelling, and maybe choose a writing program like Jot It Down to do some occasional extra writing.  (I see WWE as more comprehension and summary work that could be done separately and orally; I bought the book, but I was surprised that they do the saaaame thing for the entire year: read a passage aloud, ask questions for comprehension, ask for a summary, do some dictation.  I don't think I'd survive it beyond a few months.  Actually, we used it for about two months before DD tired of it--though it did help her auditory comprehension, which isn't the strongest.)  I haven't decided if we'll do more for writing; DS is so prolific that I'm not sure if I'll bother.  Then again, he could use some honing...

[Runningmom80]

I have come across this thread while trying to research DS6's language arts for next year.  We have covered both FLL1 and FLL2.  We used Spelling Power this year, but most likely won't next year.

 

I have thought about using FLL3, Brave Writer (jot it down), some parts of MCT, AAS1 and also WWE.  I know I don't need all of this, but wonder what the best combination is.  Any thoughts?

 

I think Grammar Island is pretty solid for what a 6 year old needs to be doing Grammar/ writing wise. 

[SeaConquest]

Have you used R&S Spelling yet?  I'm wondering how it would be for this age, since some people say it's difficult and wouldn't work to put an advanced speller in at a young age.  We did AAS 1&2 last fall; I bought 3, but the kids wanted a break from spelling.  I'm going to try to slog through 3 with them, but I really think it's overkill and wish I could find something that would similarly reaffirm the phonics we never learned without taking so much time and effort from me--especially since spelling doesn't seem to be a weak area.

 

We have been using R&S Spelling 2 this year, and it has been fine. I'm not really sold on spelling as a subject altogether -- not because my son is fantastic at spelling (he's fine), but because I feel that spelling is likely going to end up just being busywork. I think most ALs will probably learn to spell well just from reading, and don't need all this reinforcement. But, since he is my first kid, he gets stuck with the busywork until I am positive he doesn't need it. Not sure if I am making sense. :)

 

I am told that the phonics exercises become more difficult in R&S 3. We switched to R&S after AAS because I wanted something more independent. It's worked out well in that respect. I just cross out anything that is religious.

[eternallytired]

We have been using R&S Spelling 2 this year, and it has been fine. I'm not really sold on spelling as a subject altogether -- not because my son is fantastic at spelling (he's fine), but because I feel that spelling is likely going to end up just being busywork. I think most ALs will probably learn to spell well just from reading, and don't need all this reinforcement. But, since he is my first kid, he gets stuck with the busywork until I am positive he doesn't need it. Not sure if I am making sense. :)

 

I am told that the phonics exercises become more difficult in R&S 3. We switched to R&S after AAS because I wanted something more independent. It's worked out well in that respect. I just cross out anything that is religious.

 

My problem is that I have no idea if I found spelling to be a completely useless subject because I was naturally brilliant at it or because I was reading well ahead of grade level and had soaked things up that way.  I doubt I'll be studying spelling with them through middle school like I did as a kid, but there are enough foundational words they misspell (like "would") that I figure we'd best be systematic for a while at least.  Maybe I'll have to try to remember to pester you in another few months and see how R&S3 is going for you.  I'm not relishing the thought of doing AAS3--mostly because I've decided I ought to really separate them, which will mean additional one-on-one time.  I'll do it since I already bought it (juuuust before I decided I ought to separate them for instruction), but I'm going to be looking for other options for the future.