Which tests to take?

[Grantmom]

Hello all,

I hope it's okay to separate these two conversations into two threads.  They are related  but I felt like they are different.  I am trying to sort out our plan for next year. My son will be a 10th grader and seems most likely interested in a STEM major in college.  I know there are no perfect answers, but then how do you even figure out what makes sense for your individual situation?  

 

Many college admissions sites that I have read require at least two SAT2s, and some say that for homeschoolers, they recommend even more.  So:

1)  Does that mean that the SAT2 carries more weight than the AP?

 

2)  Would you take BOTH an AP and an SAT2 on the same topic?

 

3)  What overall carries more weight: an AP, an SAT2, or a college level class at a good university?  Does this vary from school to school?  If it varies then how do you know which they want the most?

 

I really don't like the idea of teaching to a test, or cramming info in to spit it back out.  But at the same time, for many of these majors, you need a certain body of knowledge and you need to be able to demonstrate that you have a mastery if it.  So, I get it.  But I want to maximize our time.

 

I also want to be able to have my child gain experience when the stakes aren't too high.  I have seen many here say that taking a college class before they are ready for it can lead to consequences down the road because that grade stays on their college record.  So that makes me nervous.  I don't know HOW to know.

 

Thanks for any insight.  :)

 

 

 

[regentrude]

Many college admissions sites that I have read require at least two SAT2s, and some say that for homeschoolers, they recommend even more.  So:

1)  Does that mean that the SAT2 carries more weight than the AP?

 

2)  Would you take BOTH an AP and an SAT2 on the same topic?

 

3)  What overall carries more weight: an AP, an SAT2, or a college level class at a good university?  Does this vary from school to school?  If it varies then how do you know which they want the most?

 

If a college requires SAT2 tests, they do not substitute AP scores or dual enrollment scores. If you want in, you have to jump their particular hoop. I am not sure what it says about relative weight - just that they use this as a measure.

 

Many students take the AP and SAT2 after studying the subject at AP level (this skews the curve of SAT2 test scores).

 

AP scores and dual enrollment can make a student competetive for admission. They show college level work, whereas the SAT2 supposedly tests high school level work. Moreover, DE shows that a homeschooled applicant can handle himself in a  classroom situation, which may be valuable.

EVERYTHING varies from college to college. That's the only thing anybody can say for certain about the entire admissions process.

 

We have chosen to play to DD's strength and do DE. She thrives in a classroom, craves interaction with students and instructor, and does not perform as well under pressure on high stakes timed tests as she does under other circumstances. For her, shining through outstanding performance throughout the semester was the best way to showcase her abilities. Plus, it gave her several professors to write great recommendation letters. She had 30 college credits, but not a single AP test.

[flyingiguana]

Usually, a good class at a good college is better than an AP, and both are better than an SAT2 as the SAT2 isn't college level.

 

That said, you can get by with no tests at all except an ACT or SAT1.  I'll bet you could even skip that if the student goes to community college for a year or two.

 

None of the colleges my kids have applied to wanted an SAT2.  I don't think they would have looked at them.  This may vary by area.  In the midwest, the SAT2s may not be something colleges care that much about.  Even the really selective colleges near us don't request that from homeschoolers.

 

APs were nice, but not essential.  My 2nd kid got a good amount of financial aid without AP or any dual enrollment college classes.  My first got somewhat more, probably because she'd had dual enrollment courses up to wazoo.  She also had a couple APs, but I have the feeling they didn't count for much once she had the dual enrollment.  (The professors in the dept made a lot of noise about all the classes she'd taken.  Not a peep about the APs)

 

If your student doesn't feel like he's really ready for dual enrollment, there's no reason to push it on him.  If he feels ready and it's an option, sure.  But then you don't need the AP or SAT2 for that subject.  I'd only do SAT2 AND AP for a particular subject if the college really wanted some SAT2s.

 

  But a good college class will generally teach a lot more than just studying for an AP test.  Or even taking an AP course.  I think a lot of colleges are more likely to accept that another college did a good job teaching a class, so a student will be more likely to get college credit.  They've seen too many kids who got 5's on an AP test come in to the next class not knowing much.  This is not to say all kids who get 5's don't know much, but a 5 isn't as much guarantee as a lot of colleges/professors would like.  They don't like to see kids failing that are put ahead too far.

[Grantmom]

Having professors to write letters for them is a good benefit of DE.  

 

It's just all so confusing and I am a bit of a perfectionist, I guess.  I want to be sure I don't miss planning for something and then have a door closed in the future.  I think we get a lot of mixed messages.  On the one hand, there are books telling them how to be a high school superstar and how to get into selective colleges.  On the other hand, there are posts all over the MIT admissions blog where the students themselves are saying things like, "believe it or not I never took a single AP class," and saying that you shouldn't worry so much about what colleges want, or doing what it takes just to get into a selective school.  I completely agree with this last statement.  I don't want my child to spend his high school years just doing things only for the sake of getting into the school he wants to attend.  But at the same time, how else are these schools going to compare you to your peers?  You've got to do something to not only validate and show what you've learned, but also to prepare yourself to be successful there.

 

 

[Jen in NY]

Another vote for just taking the associated SATII if your student takes an AP or College class for which there is a subject test. If the material is freshly studied and there isn't a lot of extra study time involved, I say why not?
 

I was glad to have found out from a friend that *any* school might even require them.... when her son was 2 years ahead of my older daughter and applying for college. Both of my daughters have happened to apply to schools that require them, and had scores in their back pockets for very little extra effort because they had done them along the way. I was glad to not have to either scramble to do the testing or cross those schools off the list.

[Grantmom]

In terms of what carries more weight, AP vs SAT2, I was just wondering about above and beyond what they require.  So, if they require at least two SAT 2s for homeschooled students, but they say that more can help your application, is it better to take more SAT 2s, or better to take several more APs. Because I kind of doubt that they would specifically say on their website that they require APs of homeschoolers.  But, as a matter of what would carry more weight with them, I was just wondering where to focus our efforts.

 

 

[Grantmom]

What do you think is a legitimate number to have?  regentrude, were all of your DD's 30 credits from the university and not the CC?

[Jen in NY]

In terms of what carries more weight, AP vs SAT2, I was just wondering about above and beyond what they require.  So, if they require at least two SAT 2s for homeschooled students, but they say that more can help your application, is it better to take more SAT 2s, or better to take several more APs. Because I kind of doubt that they would specifically say on their website that they require APs of homeschoolers.  But, as a matter of what would carry more weight with them, I was just wondering where to focus our efforts.

 

Really, I think college admissions offices take a more holistic approach to determining a kid's fit with their institution. It's so complex... in some cases involving finances, even.

 

It's true... there are some schools that require 2 or 3 SATII tests for all of their applicants.

 

As far as being a good 'fit'... I think the best thing you can do is let your kid do what they do, and then fit the tests in around that. If your kid is great at math.... and loves math exams ... by all means have him take the SAT II, and maybe even the AMCs. If your kid loves physics and is on a robotics jag, maybe he's learned enough to go ahead and study for the AP Physics C exam.

 

I think it is valuable to not make a test schedule and have the kid adhere to it. I think it's valuable to let some interests develop organically and see what tests fit  into the interests. My girls happened to want harder math and science than mom could teach, and the best way we could get it at the time was to sign up for AP Classes. I don't think it would have worked the other way around.

 

If your kid has a deep interest in something and is very active in it, it will be obvious in his applications. :)

 

best,

Jen

[Lori D.]

ETA: Oops! While I was typing up this mega-answer, looks like you got SUPER responses from the above posters, and are well on the way to deciding the best course of action for your family. So, not sure how helpful this will be, but just in case there's something in there that helps, I'll leave my response...

 

 

Many college admissions sites that I have read require at least two SAT2s, and some say that for homeschoolers, they recommend even more.

 

A small quibble:

Only a small percentage* of colleges REQUIRE a few SAT2s from all students (an additional small percentage requires SAT2s from homeschoolers); and another small percentage RECOMMEND a few SAT2s from all students or homeschool students. The majority of colleges accept, but don't expect, SAT2s from homescoholers. Also, of the few schools that do require SAT2s, all U.S. colleges only require 2 SAT2s; and only 2 Canadian schools require 3 SAT2s.

 

* = from this 2012/2013 list of U.S. and Canadian universities, fewer than 20 schools REQUIRED SAT2s (from ALL students applying); the rest of the schools utilize SAT2s in some way:

- by "accepting an ACT or SAT score in lieu of SAT2 scores"

- or by "recommending " having 1-2 SAT2s

- or consider SAT2 scores "optional"

- or "accept scores if submitted"

 

 Hopefully that takes the panic level down a notch. ;)

 

 

1)  Does that mean that the SAT2 carries more weight than the AP?

 

2)  Would you take BOTH an AP and an SAT2 on the same topic?

 

3)  What overall carries more weight: an AP, an SAT2, or a college level class at a good university?  Does this vary from school to school?  If it varies then how do you know which they want the most?

 

1. No.

- SAT2 tests show level of understanding of high school level material in that subject.

- AP tests show level of understanding of advanced & college level material while still a high school student.

 

2. Your choice.

If your student has studied and prepared for the AP test, then the student is likely to also do well on the SAT2 of the same subject. So, yes, in that scenario, if you want to do both, go for it. If your student has not prepped only for the SAT2 test, then don't also try for the AP; the AP covers more/different material at a higher level.

 

3. AP and SAT2 do different things.

Not so much a matter of which carries "more weight", but which goal are you trying to accomplish, as AP and SAT2 have different purposes.

 

APs are not required -- they are optional, but are meant to show advanced level work. If applying to selective schools, competitive schools, or top tier schools, in order for a student to have a good shot at entry, the student needs to show high level of academics in some way, and APs are a very accepted and encouraged way of doing that. (Rigorous outsourced classes, or dual enrollment can also show that.)

 

SAT2 satisfies admission requirements for some schools. Colleges requiring SAT2 scores are looking to use the scores as a type of standard measurement -- a way of comparing high school students, since how GPA is determined, course requirements, etc., varies so much from high school to high school. (Or, as a method of confirming homeschool grades, which can also be accomplished through ACT/SAT scores, outsourced classes, or dual enrollment.)

 

… I really don't like the idea of teaching to a test, or cramming info in to spit it back out.  But at the same time, for many of these majors, you need a certain body of knowledge and you need to be able to demonstrate that you have a mastery if it.  So, I get it.  But I want to maximize our time.

 

Deciding to test or not, or how many, or of which types is SO variable -- on the student's abilities, future goals, need/not need of financial aid, local options… In deciding which test(s), if any, your student should take, it may help to think through some questions:

 

- What college program/degree is the student interested in?

- What school(s) does the student plan to apply to?

- Do those schools require SAT Subject tests?

- Are those schools competitive, so that AP tests help with admissions?

- Do APs open doors at those schools to honors courses or special programs and research opportunities to freshmen -- or -- do APs not make a difference?

- Do those schools grant credit for CLEP, AP, dual enrollment?

- Do you have access to quality AP or dual enrollment locally?

- How big of a factor are finances to your student going to college?

- Which of the local options (CLEP, dual enrollment, AP) will best help maximize finances?

- How good are the chances your student will be awarded a LOT, some, or little money (from merit = scholarships, or, from need = grants and some scholarships)

- ACT/SAT scores open doors to scholarships more frequently than AP, dual enrollment or CLEP -- what is the plan for prepping to earn a high ACT/SAT score?

 

"What is an AP class?" is a good thread for explaining what the different tests are, the purposes for each, and why you would want to take which ones. :)

 

I also want to be able to have my child gain experience when the stakes aren't too high.  I have seen many here say that taking a college class before they are ready for it can lead to consequences down the road because that grade stays on their college record.  So that makes me nervous.  I don't know HOW to know.

 

Well, for all of real-life there are down-the-road consequences ;), so please don't let that paralyze you from stepping out there. And while it is true that educationally, starting in high school, the decisions start carrying more weight, it does NOT mean that one misstep or mistake slams the door on your entire future. :)

 

That said, here are some ideas of how to gently step out there:

 

Maybe start with an online high school level class. The student learns to be accountable to an outside instructor, learns time management and self-discipline, and puts study skills into practice. If the student is ready for extra rigor or advanced work, try an AP class; just because the student takes the class does NOT mean the student has to also take the AP test, if not doing so well in the class. :)

 

Once your student has those skills down, perhaps try the next step of a dual-enrollment course. Do just ONE; pick a subject that your student is strong in already to help ensure success. Walk alongside during that first class, encourage your student to seek the free tutoring services immediately if they don't get a concept. If the student is really struggling, or ended up in a class with a poor instructor, officially withdraw from the class before the deadline; a "W" on the transcript carries no grade so it does no "harm" to the GPA -- and there are many reasons students withdraw, so it is NOT looked on askance by future colleges. And even if your student DOES end up with a "C" or a "D" it is NOT the end of the world; students bounce back and still get into colleges and even get scholarships after an early grade hiccup. It can make for a great college admission essay! ;)

 

Or, try a "soft" AP test (Microeconomics, Government, History, Art History, Psychology) first. These are the less rigorous APs. Do just one AP class/test, and see how it goes -- work out any "bugs". The next year, consider a "hard" AP class and test (math, science, English, Foreign Language). The following year, do 1, maybe 2, more. Now you have 3-4 APs, spread out through high school to maximize your student's time for AP study AND other classes and activities.

 

Also, realize you do not HAVE to do ANY APs or SAT2s and you can still be admitted to lots of schools and earn scholarships. There are a number of WTM families who did no testing and their students are in great schools with great scholarships. Being an interesting student with outside activities in addition to solid academics -- a good GPA backed by a good ACT/SAT score -- is what did it.

 

 

One last thought -- and it's totally JMO from my own experience, but I found it was really easy in homeschooling high school to get SO anxious about credits, tests, record-keeping etc., that I was losing sight of our main goals for homeschooling, and our goals for helping our children develop as well-rounded people. High school is such a wonderful time for exploring interests and involvement in activities that can be life-long joys, develop life skills, even open doors to possible future career interests. I found we had to be careful not to overweight that limited high school time to only all about academics and testing.

 

BEST of luck as you sort through the test tangle! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[G5052]

If a college requires SAT2 tests, they do not substitute AP scores or dual enrollment scores. If you want in, you have to jump their particular hoop. I am not sure what it says about relative weight - just that they use this as a measure.

 

Many students take the AP and SAT2 after studying the subject at AP level (this skews the curve of SAT2 test scores).

 

 

Yes, their particular hoop.  

 

One 4-year we're familiar with STRONGLY prefers SAT II's in foreign languages over AP's, unless of course there is no SAT II for the language, then they like seeing an AP.  They like AP's in general though, although not in every field, and you must have a "4" or "5" for them to take it seriously.  They're welcoming of dual enrollment as long as you went to certain schools.  They don't don't like one of the ones I work for, but IMHO it is stronger academically on several fronts.  Not as well-known and "in" with that school?  Go figure.  But if you have a 2-year degree, it doesn't matter.

 

Another school says only AP's or dual enrollment.  They don't like SAT II's at all.

 

It will drive you crazy. Truly.

[Grantmom]

Thanks for all of this, it is very helpful in thinking all of this through.  I really appreciate being able to brainstorm here.

 

All of the colleges that we have looked at so far either require or "highly recommend" at least two SAT2 subject tests, except for one, and that one just changed their application this year to no longer "require" them.

[Luckymama]

It will drive you crazy. Truly.

It's my third time through (first with a homeschooler) and it all still makes me crazy :rolleyes:

 

Dd and I have decided to "cover the bases" with a combo of APs, subject tests, and university dual enrollment to validate her learning in the five main areas (another :rolleyes:):

 

English-- an AP, maybe the SAT II (least favorite subject)

Math--SAT II, university dual enrollment

Science--an AP or two, depending on interests

Social sciences/history--SAT II for US, APs for Human Geography and Psychology; maybe SAT II or AP for world history and maybe AP Government (either? both? Comp is unusual), all depending on if she heads to government or international stuff

Foreign Language--Arabic has neither an AP nor a SAT II :lol: so she'll do dual enrollment

[Grantmom]

 

One last thought -- and it's totally JMO from my own experience, but I found it was really easy in homeschooling high school to get SO anxious about credits, tests, record-keeping etc., that I was losing sight of our main goals for homeschooling, and our goals for helping our children develop as well-rounded people. High school is such a wonderful time for exploring interests and involvement in activities that can be life-long joys, develop life skills, even open doors to possible future career interests. I found we had to be careful not to overweight that limited high school time to only all about academics and testing.

 

BEST of luck as you sort through the test tangle! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

Yes, this absolutely is why I want to think through this now and be proactive in planning.  This is why we are homeschooling, so that the student does have time for all of those things.  I feel like, by doing it this way, he has the time for these things, whereas the public high school takes up so much time out of their day, and they don't get nearly as much out of it.  I feel like by homeschooling, we can have the best of both.

 

So, for us, there is time to do APs or SAT2s or DE, and I want to choose carefully.  We have both a local uni and a CC close by.  In fact the uni is very close and you could even walk or ride a bike there.

 

He is most likely headed towards something in engineering or physics.  Those are his interests now. 

[regentrude]

What do you think is a legitimate number to have?  regentrude, were all of your DD's 30 credits from the university and not the CC?

 

4 year university. 11 credits in calculus based physics (3 semesters), 6 in English (2 semesters upper level lit courses), 16 in French (5 semesters).

But none of the credits transfered to her terminal university; the physics credits could be used for placement in the honors freshman physics course.

 

FWIW, she took SAT2s in Math2, Physics, German and Literature.

[Pen]

In terms of what carries more weight, AP vs SAT2, I was just wondering about above and beyond what they require.  So, if they require at least two SAT 2s for homeschooled students, but they say that more can help your application, is it better to take more SAT 2s, or better to take several more APs. Because I kind of doubt that they would specifically say on their website that they require APs of homeschoolers.  But, as a matter of what would carry more weight with them, I was just wondering where to focus our efforts.

 

 

All else being equal, I would personally favor AP's--partly because in my personal experience taking them, I preferred them.  Would a college prefer a 5 on an AP or an 800 on an SAT2?  I don't know. Probably they are both good.  If it will come down to a 3 on an AP or a 680 on an SAT2, maybe the 680 would be better, but I cannot read minds of admissions officers.

 

But all else is rarely equal, and among other things, I'd suggest seeing what AP's are offered in your area. If all are, no problem. I know for us, very few are.  On the other hand, so far as I know, any SAT2 that exists, my son would be able to take it if he pre-enrolls for it. So, for example, the language he chose is one he can take an SAT2 for within 40 miles, but not an AP--and while I might personally favor APs, I would not have him choose a language based on AP availability.