Does this sound like dyslexia??

[diaperjoys]

Our almost 9yo son is reading fairly well - he's in second grade, reading at a second grade level. He's an extremely active boy, and learning to read was a difficult task - it took three years! During those three years he did not have trouble with reversing letters, or reversing numbers, or reading words backwards. He did have a terrible time, however, copying anything, particularly copying anything off the white board. So I thought there was a vision issue, and we had that checked out, including a trip to a doctor who did vision therapy. And we came up with nothing.

 

Fast forward to the present. As long as he's reading right at grade level he does fairly well. Words above grade level really trip him up, and I see rather more skipping than usual. He makes 80's and 90's on his spelling tests, but spells rather sloppily on any other work. Copying off the board is still very, very hard, as is accurately copying words from one paper to another paper. Not a mechanics issue - he can write neatly enough - but he gets the letters and words jumbled when carrying them from one place to another. Getting spelling words in ABC order is insanely difficult. 

 

Now, though, he works with bigger numbers in math, and we are seeing very consistent reversals with numbers. Not writing backwards, but reading "311" as "113", for example. He understands math concepts well, and is borrowing and carrying nicely, but those numbers are always reversed in his mind. 

 

He's in a classroom setting this year, and we plan to bring the kids home for next year. I'm thinking through curriculum, and not sure where to go with this fellow. It is hard to tell how many of the issues are tied to his ultra high energy level/low focus, and which issues are truly issues. If this is dyslexia, I can't see doing anything about it this school year - the school is very high structure, and he is about to burst by the time school is out for the day - adding commute time to get to a therapist, or even adding extra "afterschooling" would just undo him. Next year, though, I want to thoroughly help him however we can. But how to help?

 

Any ideas? Does this picture ring any bells for any of you? What has been helpful, what has been unhelpful?

 

Thanks so much!

[Storygirl]

Well, there could be a problem. Or he could just be an eight-year-old who has not yet mastered things and needs more time for them to solidify.

 

Dyslexia is mainly a phonological issue, not a vision issue. So reading words backwards may be symptomatic of a vision problem but is not really indicative of dyslexia. If you have him read a nonsense word, can he sound it out to come up with an appropriate pronunciation? Does he have any trouble with rhyming? Does he guess at unfamiliar words and have difficulty sounding them out, because sounding out or decoding is a skill he lacks? People with dyslexia often have trouble with spelling.

 

It sounds like your main problem is his difficulty with copying from the board?? Perhaps this could be a working memory issue instead of dyslexia? Your comments about "ultra high energy/low focus" suggest ADHD or sensory seeking issues more than dyslexia.

 

What do his teachers think? You can request the public school to evaluate him (even if he is attending a private school), but they would want to see some evidence that his struggles are preventing him from performing at grade level. It seems you sense that something may be off. You may be right, but you would need an expert to determine that for you. If not the public school, then you would go to a neuropsychologist for testing.

[MerryAtHope]

I agree with this thought:

 

 

 

It sounds like your main problem is his difficulty with copying from the board?? Perhaps this could be a working memory issue instead of dyslexia? Your comments about "ultra high energy/low focus" suggest ADHD or sensory seeking issues more than dyslexia.

 

 

Difficulty copying with no vision processing problems could be ADHD/working memory issues. However, if you are trying to have him copy things that are beyond his spelling ability, and especially if they are beyond his comfortable reading-level, or things where he doesn't fully understand the patterns and how letters are working together (phonograms), then the trouble could also be with your selection for the copywork. (See mistake #2 in my blog article on writing mistakes.)

 

Our almost 9yo son is reading fairly well - he's in second grade, reading at a second grade level. He's an extremely active boy, and learning to read was a difficult task - it took three years! 

 

Could be normal, could be ADHD or possible dyslexia.

 

 

Fast forward to the present. As long as he's reading right at grade level he does fairly well. Words above grade level really trip him up, and I see rather more skipping than usual. He makes 80's and 90's on his spelling tests, but spells rather sloppily on any other work. Copying off the board is still very, very hard, as is accurately copying words from one paper to another paper. Not a mechanics issue - he can write neatly enough - but he gets the letters and words jumbled when carrying them from one place to another. Getting spelling words in ABC order is insanely difficult. 

 

I would fully expect him to be tripped up on words above grade level--many kids need to be directly shown how to address longer/harder words, and don't just learn it "naturally." Having him try to read harder things will encourage skipping, guessing, and other negative reading habits. I would pre-teach new words and gradually help him grow in his reading skills instead.

 

Spelling--it's not unusual for kids, especially in elementary school, to misspell words in their writing that they can spell correctly for a test. It may mean he's just memorizing for the test (which isn't very useful to him long-term) or it may be that he can still spell those words in isolation but when he has to put spelling, punctuation, grammar, capitalization, correct answers, creativity, sentence structure and so on together all at once, he's not able to do so without some things falling through the cracks (like spelling). Here's an article on how to help kids become more automatic in their spelling (so that they don't have to think about it so hard when they are writing). 

 

It's also possible that his spelling program doesn't help him master the words very well, doesn't include enough review (or he needs added review to meet his needs). All About Spelling is an Orton-Gillingham based spelling program that works well for kids with dyslexia and other spelling struggles, and really helped my kids. They have All About Reading as well, and you could look into those for next year. 

 

 

 

Now, though, he works with bigger numbers in math, and we are seeing very consistent reversals with numbers. Not writing backwards, but reading "311" as "113", for example. He understands math concepts well, and is borrowing and carrying nicely, but those numbers are always reversed in his mind. 

 

This could be dyslexia. Dyslexics often see letters and numbers 3-dimensionally, and can turn them around in their minds like objects, flip them, and so on. Since the problem is mainly with reading the numbers, you may want to work on directionality for reading numbers with him just a few minutes each day. I found that using arrows helped reinforce directionality for my kids.

 

It could also be that he just thinks very 3-dimensionally, and that combined with inattentiveness (due to being an active kid, or especially if he does have ADHD) could cause this too. 

[bayareanative]

I wouldn't rule out dyslexia and I wouldn't jump to ADHD because often kids who have dyslexia become very stealth at hiding it and doing whatever they can to avoid putting themselves into situations/avoiding situations where their weaknesses will be revealed. And that can look like inattention/ADHD to an outsider.

 

My daughter had a terrible time with copying from the board and that was considered a major indicator by her neuropsychologist.

 

Dyslexia can present in different ways depending on the kid, so not every indicator is going to be true for every kid.

 

 

[sweetpea3829]

Dyslexia is not just a phonological issue.  Many dyslexics "see" in 3D (as was mentioned) and cannot keep the images straight.  

 

I'm surprised that an eye exam didn't bring anything up because this sounds very much like a child who likely has developmental vision concerns.  He saw a developmental optometrist?  This kind of eye doctor specializes in these developmental vision issues.  If he saw a regular eye doctor that says he/she does "vision therapy" but is not an actual developmental optometrist, I'd have him rechecked.  

 

I agree with everything else Merry said, lol.  

[PeterPan]

Since 60% of kids with dyslexia also get an ADHD label, the real question is who should be doing the evals.  And either way, it's a psych/neuropsych.  So you get the evals and let the psych sort it out.

 

As far as the vision, sure get him a fresh annual check with the developmental optometrist.  If the doc wasn't on the COVD list, then yes move up the food chain.  I get my ds screened every year and he doesn't have developmental vision problems.  What he DOES have is crazy spatial and visual processing issues.  Even though a chunk of dyslexics will have the vision issues, that's NOT what the psych is going to look at to diagnose.  They're going to be looking at the CTOPP scores (phonological processing), RAN/RAS (rapid naming), and the total picture.

 

So you homeschooled him with typical phonics and then a year and a half ago put him in the cs?  I don't mean to be intrusive, but why is he 2nd grade when his age-grade would be 3rd?  If he's dyslexic and grade adjusted solely for that, it might be you're covering up the disability.  At that point he could be way behind his IQ.  That is DEFINITELY something they'll take into consideration, when there's a serious gap between achievement and IQ despite normal instruction.  There are also articles that get mentioned here on the board basically showing that grade retention doesn't work, that you have to INTERVENE.  

 

So I'm not meaning to frighten you, but I'd be very reluctant to let an issue where a child is performing at least a full grade below his age grade, struggling to stay above water, and let that go another year before eval'ing and seeing what's going on, kwim?  This is the time where you INTERVENE.  

 

That starts you into the whole question of who, how to afford it, how to be realistic about it.  I assume the cs thing was a reality thing, so reality for this?  Reality is you get the evals you can afford and get the intervention you can afford.  But I'd rather have Barton at home and no cs tuition for that kid (as in withdraw him and do Barton 3 hours a day, which you can) than to pay $6-10K to the cs and not be getting the appropriate intervention.  And 6-9 months could make a HUGE radical difference in his performance if it's dyslexia.  This is NOT time to waste saying oh next year I'll take care of it.  NOW is the time to get it figured out.

 

So first whatever evals you can make happen.  Then whatever intervention you can make happen.

 

If it's not dyslexia, if it's only adhd (I say "only" as one knowing what a serious pain in the butt and problem it can be), you still need the information from the evals to make decisions on how to help you.  To me he sounds sort of drowning, like he's in this system, trying, trying to paddle and keep up.  You don't want him to slide under.  Evals help you figure out what his life raft is.  Or as one person put it: You don't have to be the psych.  You just have to make the decision to hire the psych.

 

Seriously.  Don't try to be the psych.  Just make the decision to hire the psych.

 

If your budget is free, then go through the ps, Scottish Rite, or whatever you can make happen.  Or eat oatmeal.  Or withdraw him from the cs and use the tuition money to afford evals. And eat oatmeal.  Good evals with a psychologist or neuropsychologist well-respected in your area for adhd and dyslexia.  They pair so much, you can find someone.  They can sort it out for you.  The answer can be both.

[PeterPan]

Dyslexia is not just a phonological issue. 

More precisely, dyslexia will have other issues going along that can include vision.  However for purposes of the DSM and diagnosis, the ONLY thing they are looking at is phonological, not vision.  

[diaperjoys]

Since 60% of kids with dyslexia also get an ADHD label, the real question is who should be doing the evals.  And either way, it's a psych/neuropsych.  So you get the evals and let the psych sort it out.

 

As far as the vision, sure get him a fresh annual check with the developmental optometrist.  If the doc wasn't on the COVD list, then yes move up the food chain.  I get my ds screened every year and he doesn't have developmental vision problems.  What he DOES have is crazy spatial and visual processing issues.  Even though a chunk of dyslexics will have the vision issues, that's NOT what the psych is going to look at to diagnose.  They're going to be looking at the CTOPP scores (phonological processing), RAN/RAS (rapid naming), and the total picture.

 

So you homeschooled him with typical phonics and then a year and a half ago put him in the cs?  I don't mean to be intrusive, but why is he 2nd grade when his age-grade would be 3rd?  If he's dyslexic and grade adjusted solely for that, it might be you're covering up the disability.  At that point he could be way behind his IQ.  That is DEFINITELY something they'll take into consideration, when there's a serious gap between achievement and IQ despite normal instruction.  There are also articles that get mentioned here on the board basically showing that grade retention doesn't work, that you have to INTERVENE.  

 

So I'm not meaning to frighten you, but I'd be very reluctant to let an issue where a child is performing at least a full grade below his age grade, struggling to stay above water, and let that go another year before eval'ing and seeing what's going on, kwim?  This is the time where you INTERVENE.  

 

That starts you into the whole question of who, how to afford it, how to be realistic about it.  I assume the cs thing was a reality thing, so reality for this?  Reality is you get the evals you can afford and get the intervention you can afford.  But I'd rather have Barton at home and no cs tuition for that kid (as in withdraw him and do Barton 3 hours a day, which you can) than to pay $6-10K to the cs and not be getting the appropriate intervention.  And 6-9 months could make a HUGE radical difference in his performance if it's dyslexia.  This is NOT time to waste saying oh next year I'll take care of it.  NOW is the time to get it figured out.

 

So first whatever evals you can make happen.  Then whatever intervention you can make happen.

 

If it's not dyslexia, if it's only adhd (I say "only" as one knowing what a serious pain in the butt and problem it can be), you still need the information from the evals to make decisions on how to help you.  To me he sounds sort of drowning, like he's in this system, trying, trying to paddle and keep up.  You don't want him to slide under.  Evals help you figure out what his life raft is.  Or as one person put it: You don't have to be the psych.  You just have to make the decision to hire the psych.

 

Seriously.  Don't try to be the psych.  Just make the decision to hire the psych.

 

If your budget is free, then go through the ps, Scottish Rite, or whatever you can make happen.  Or eat oatmeal.  Or withdraw him from the cs and use the tuition money to afford evals. And eat oatmeal.  Good evals with a psychologist or neuropsychologist well-respected in your area for adhd and dyslexia.  They pair so much, you can find someone.  They can sort it out for you.  The answer can be both.

 

Thank you so much, all of you, for all your thoughts and suggestions! Very helpful! We spent last year sorting out one kiddo with suspected Asperger's/ADHD, and this year we're realizing that there must be something underlying going on with our almost 9yo. He was placed in 1st grade last year because we wanted him in the grade where he would thrive. At that point we had no idea there were problems - we just knew that even before he was born, this child was super active. At home it took a lot of redirection to get schoolwork done - and yet it doesn't look anything like our son with diagnosed ADHD. He was reading when he went into first, and he did very well with that year of systematic phonics. In terms of his maturity, and his reading, that grade was the perfect fit for him. Spot on. Second grade has been harder - certain skills have ramped up their pace, and it has been hard for him to do what has been expected. Hindsight is 20/20, so we can see now that there is more than activity level/immaturity driving these difficulties. My husband and I are in the process of figuring out the right time to pull the kids home - there are quite a number of factors affecting that decision, that I won't go into here. 

 

Oh Elizabeth, we had neuropsych testing done for one child last year - (tried a zillion options and ended up having to pay out of pocket, so yes, lots of oatmeal around here!). We were testing for completely different issues, but it sounds like the neuropsych may also be valuable for our almost 9yo. And then after that think about re-evaluating the possible visual issues? Is that the sequence you'd recommend? 

[PeterPan]

Well who did your vision eval the first time?  And was it an annual visit and a screening or a full developmental eval?  Typically a full developmental eval is several hours and costs hundreds of dollars.  I think it's reasonable to do an annual vision exam on a dc, just like you go to the dentist.  I think it's prudent to do it with a developmental optometrist you find through COVD, so that you can ask them to *screen* for the developmental vision issues.  That's a $60 option, not a $300+ option, kwim?  That to me is prudent.  Then you have information to decide if you need a deeper eval.  But you know if it has been a couple years since his last vision exam, that normal $60 vision exam, done with a dev. optom., would definitely be reasonable.

 

You are correct that kids can look VERY different and still get the same label.  Since you've already been down this road, well the odds are even higher that it's involved.  (in the genes, in the family)  My dd and ds are very, very different.  You do realize that ADHD has subtypes, right?  My ds has a LOT of motion as the psych put it, lol.  I think he was right on that line where he thought about taking it to combined.  He went inattentive, but there's a LOT of motion there.  I put him in classes at the Y to burn some of it off.

 

You don't know till you get the evals.  You want to make sure the psych you used before is going to nail the dyslexia.  If that's not something he deals with a lot, then find a fresh psych. Not all psychs do dyslexia.  We first started looking at a clinical psych who specializes in gifted, and while she was awesome she was totally going to punt on the dyslexia issue.  The neuropsych was MUCH more aggressive.  They now have CTOPP testing to get this diagnosed MUCH earlier than before.  They could diagnose it on ds as a newly 6 yo with no reading.  It has just totally changed from the days of let them fail, let them fail, finally diagnose.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to put him on meds if the motion is interfering from his ability to learn basic skills.  I'm all for an adhd-friendly lifestyle, but I need reading to happen.  The psych will look at other things you're not expecting like working memory, and you'll have some options you're not expecting.  (OT, cognitive therapies, etc.)  I'm sorry it's so expensive.  We need to go back to bartering days and trade chickens or something, sigh.  Somehow these professions have gotten to where they make 10X what most mortals make and it's just frustrating.

 

There can be social delays with ADHD, and I didn't realize this.  It's pathetic that I didn't realize, because I've sat here reading books on it for years now.  It's just when you see it in front of you you, well, it's just the elephant in the room.  And yes, I thought he was going to get a pddnos label.  I couldn't figure out what in the world was going on.  I couldn't figure out if we should even be calling him K5 this year.  As you say, it would SEEM like a grade adjustment would solve the problem.  It doesn't *really* though, because his IQ is in the gifted range.  He might need a grade 13, yes, but that will be for maturity.  Academically he is not *delayed* but rather disabled and needs intervention.  And that was a really huge distinction for me.  People around me didn't get why I was fighting for the evals, but that was why, because without them you can sort out what is DELAY and what is DISABILITY.  And it makes a HUGE difference.  If you treat it as a delay and wait, you're missing the ideal window for intervention.  If you treat something as a disability and intervene hard and push what they're not developmentally ready for, you frustrate them.  

 

So that was my primary question to the psych: what of this is delay and what is disability, and how definitive will you be on this?  He was VERY definitive and I think the psych will be with your ds too.  

 

So yes, don't delay, not when you already know you've got the genes.  Yes the mix will show up differently.  My ds is so different from my dd, I couldn't see the forest for the trees.  He's constantly in motion, has a much faster processing speed, etc. etc.  You just have to roll with it.  The DSM is the problem, not our kids.  It's the DSM that separates out things that overlap and lumps things together that they don't understand well enough yet to distinguish.  What ISN'T wrong is your mother gut.  Your mother gut says something is wrong, and your mother gut is right.  And you don't have to know what is wrong.  All you need is to make the decision to find the right person to get the answers.

 

:grouphug: 

 

PS.  Come hang on LC.  We're crazy fun over there.  :)

[Lori D.]

First, 9yo is still young to expect a student to carry over spelling into simultaneously writing. And he may just on a slightly different "late-bloomer" timetable for the handwriting coordination for copying.

 

 

If he were a little older and still had these issues, I'd consider the possibility of mild processing or LDs. I'm certainly no expert, but continued difficulties with spelling and writing could possibly be stealth dyslexia.

 

Just our experience:

That seemed to be what we were dealing with DS#2. He tested as "borderline dyslexic". He was slower to read, and even now after all the years of working carefully with his reading he still will sometimes make an "educated guess" from context at a multi-syllable rather than do the (for him) painful work of concentrating on the word and sounding it out.

 

Things that helped with the handwriting included:

- Callirobics -- daily, 5 minutes

- Dianne Craft Writing 8s -- daiily, 15 minutes

 

Things that helped with the spelling:

- maturity (spelling didn't even begin to click until age 12)

- mnemonics idea from Stevenson Blue Spelling Manual

- strengthening his very weak auditory-sequential skills through out loud spelling practice

(Andrew Pudewa's lecture: "Spelling and the Brain; IEW's Phonetic Zoo)

- tactile methods of spelling practice (use finger to write letters large on table top; finger writing in a tray of sand or cornmeal; form letters from "snakes" of clay; use foam or magnetic letters; â€¦)

- visuals/colors and "stories" to help connect with and "see" vowel patterns, homophones endings/suffixes/prefixes, etc.)

- building bigger words from smaller ones (Sequential Spelling)

- dictation of short sentences with 2-3 spelling words in each (Stevenson Blue Spelling Manual)

- syllabication for spelling attack (Megawords)

 

Things that helped with writing:

- short focused "bursts" of writing, scattered throughout the day (for a 9yo, 5-10 minutes, 3-4 sentences max)

- IEW keyword technique, and spread the process out of completing a paragraph over a week

- narration dictated to me, then used as his copywork

 

Overall helps:

- natural supplements to help increase overall focus/concentration (i.e., fish oil, and when an older teen, 5HTP)

 

For the math:

You might look into an use of an abacus (or learning how to use his fingers or make tally marks like an abacus). Harder to reverse numbers if there is a physical representation and computation in front of him.

 

 

Not an expert, and don't know your DS, so all I can do is throw out there what helped here. BEST of luck in determining exactly what is going on to then be able to incorporate what best helps DS! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[hepatica]

I think the question of "how to help" depends entirely on what is going on, and you won't know that without the neuropsych evaluation. What you can see with the full evaluation is the large gaps between skills. For example, my dd13 was in the highest percentile for problem solving and reasoning, but at the very lowest end of normal for certain processing skills. That is a gap of more than two standard deviations, and that gap (as well as a more general gap between intelligence and achievement), is crucial for diagnosing stealth dyslexia.

 

It used to be assumed that dyslexia was a unique phenomenon characterized by an oddity in the visual processing system that caused letters to move around on the page or be seen or written upside down and backwards. Today, with much better research and much better technology (particularly brain imaging technology) researchers can actually see that it is primarily a deficiency in phonological processing. However, it is still the case that the symptoms can be very different from one individual to another. Because reading and writing are such complex processes there are lots of places where the process can get hung up. Visual processing challenges, awkward ( or perhaps we should say novel) communication pathways between different parts of the brain, difficulty processing sounds, slow processing speeds, and difficulty with organization and sequencing are just some of the problems that "dyslexic" students often struggle with. I think this is why there is disagreement about how useful the label "dyslexic" is (that is another debate entirely). 

 

But, a full evaluation does matter when you are trying to figure out how to help. For example, My dd's comprehension, which is great when she reads long passages, is much worse when she is reading small amounts (like instructions or multiple choice questions). It is very important for her to physically underline or highlight exactly what she is being asked to do when she is reading instructions. But, if she is taking extra time to process the instructions, then she needs extra time to complete the tasks. 

 

The physical act of writing is also very challenging for her. Combining the tasks of composition and spelling and grammar and sentence mechanics seems almost painful at times. Yet, she has a lovely "voice" and lots of intelligent ideas. Keyboarding has really helped, and we are thinking of trying some of the writing software designed for dyslexics to ease the processing tasks required to write. 

 

I think seemingly careless math mistakes are also classic, so I wouldn't discount those problems. My dd does exactly the same thing. She can say one number and write the opposite and not even see it on the page. Maturity and learning to be aware of these issues is important as well. 

 

 

[diaperjoys]

Yes, I really do think there is some variety of ADHD going on. However, it is my gut feeling that the ADHD is not at the forefront of the learning difficulty. Front and center is something "off" with the ability to see and process symbols. He's smart, which is why I think he eventually was successful learning to read. However, it is happening all over again with piano. I'm a piano teacher, with tons of experience teaching, and I've also taught all my own children to read music. So I have a solid feel for the many variations of normal when it comes to learning to read music. This is definitely not normal. Distinguishing notes one from the other, understanding the various symbols. It is really, really, really slow going. He likes it, and he's happy to learn, but I'm needing to keep the lessons very short, and very simple, and keep progress crazy slow in order not to lose him. 

 

 

Well who did your vision eval the first time?  And was it an annual visit and a screening or a full developmental eval?  Typically a full developmental eval is several hours and costs hundreds of dollars.  I think it's reasonable to do an annual vision exam on a dc, just like you go to the dentist.  I think it's prudent to do it with a developmental optometrist you find through COVD, so that you can ask them to *screen* for the developmental vision issues.  That's a $60 option, not a $300+ option, kwim?  That to me is prudent.  Then you have information to decide if you need a deeper eval.  But you know if it has been a couple years since his last vision exam, that normal $60 vision exam, done with a dev. optom., would definitely be reasonable.

 

You are correct that kids can look VERY different and still get the same label.  Since you've already been down this road, well the odds are even higher that it's involved.  (in the genes, in the family)  My dd and ds are very, very different.  You do realize that ADHD has subtypes, right?  My ds has a LOT of motion as the psych put it, lol.  I think he was right on that line where he thought about taking it to combined.  He went inattentive, but there's a LOT of motion there.  I put him in classes at the Y to burn some of it off.

 

You don't know till you get the evals.  You want to make sure the psych you used before is going to nail the dyslexia.  If that's not something he deals with a lot, then find a fresh psych. Not all psychs do dyslexia.  We first started looking at a clinical psych who specializes in gifted, and while she was awesome she was totally going to punt on the dyslexia issue.  The neuropsych was MUCH more aggressive.  They now have CTOPP testing to get this diagnosed MUCH earlier than before.  They could diagnose it on ds as a newly 6 yo with no reading.  It has just totally changed from the days of let them fail, let them fail, finally diagnose.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to put him on meds if the motion is interfering from his ability to learn basic skills.  I'm all for an adhd-friendly lifestyle, but I need reading to happen.  The psych will look at other things you're not expecting like working memory, and you'll have some options you're not expecting.  (OT, cognitive therapies, etc.)  I'm sorry it's so expensive.  We need to go back to bartering days and trade chickens or something, sigh.  Somehow these professions have gotten to where they make 10X what most mortals make and it's just frustrating.

 

There can be social delays with ADHD, and I didn't realize this.  It's pathetic that I didn't realize, because I've sat here reading books on it for years now.  It's just when you see it in front of you you, well, it's just the elephant in the room.  And yes, I thought he was going to get a pddnos label.  I couldn't figure out what in the world was going on.  I couldn't figure out if we should even be calling him K5 this year.  As you say, it would SEEM like a grade adjustment would solve the problem.  It doesn't *really* though, because his IQ is in the gifted range.  He might need a grade 13, yes, but that will be for maturity.  Academically he is not *delayed* but rather disabled and needs intervention.  And that was a really huge distinction for me.  People around me didn't get why I was fighting for the evals, but that was why, because without them you can sort out what is DELAY and what is DISABILITY.  And it makes a HUGE difference.  If you treat it as a delay and wait, you're missing the ideal window for intervention.  If you treat something as a disability and intervene hard and push what they're not developmentally ready for, you frustrate them.  

 

So that was my primary question to the psych: what of this is delay and what is disability, and how definitive will you be on this?  He was VERY definitive and I think the psych will be with your ds too.  

 

So yes, don't delay, not when you already know you've got the genes.  Yes the mix will show up differently.  My ds is so different from my dd, I couldn't see the forest for the trees.  He's constantly in motion, has a much faster processing speed, etc. etc.  You just have to roll with it.  The DSM is the problem, not our kids.  It's the DSM that separates out things that overlap and lumps things together that they don't understand well enough yet to distinguish.  What ISN'T wrong is your mother gut.  Your mother gut says something is wrong, and your mother gut is right.  And you don't have to know what is wrong.  All you need is to make the decision to find the right person to get the answers.

 

:grouphug: 

 

PS.  Come hang on LC.  We're crazy fun over there.   :)

 

[PeterPan]

Well then you're going to want evals sooner, rather than later, to get this figured out.  If he needs dyslexia interventions, you'll need to think through whether you want to do it yourself or hire a tutor.  I guess if you're certain it's not realistic to do it yourself and that you'll need the money for private tutoring, the cost of the evals would go to that.  It wouldn't be ideal.  You could get the evals through the ps for free so you'd have some kind of baseline and info and use your money for tutoring.  

 

And yes, I can totally see your point that afterschooling probably isn't realistic.  Literally though you could bring him home and do 2-3 hours a day of Barton in short sessions.  I'm doing a full hour a day with my K5er, all broken into short sessions.  We've had multiple people on LC doing 2-3 hours a day with older kids.  You'd do Barton, math, and just read alouds and dvds beyond that.

 

Just some options.  

[diaperjoys]

Oh, I'd certainly much prefer to do any intervention at home rather than send him to a tutor. I think the next step is figuring out where to take him for a diagnosis. We checked into going through the public school for evals with our older son, and it was a total bust. I can't remember the details, but it didn't work out at all. Our school gave us the name of someone who does tutoring for adhd/dyslexia, and they do dyslexia screening too. But I question whether a screening done by a tutor would be of any real value. Our pediatrician gave us a few referrals as well, but none of them stand out. I wish I knew more about what specific tests we need. I'll keep hunting. Hopefully I can find someone with a reputation that stands out.

[diaperjoys]

How do you like Barton? I've poked around on the website, and it is sooooo tedious to listen to Mrs. Barton describe how the program works. Are the DVDs that come with the program like the demo materials? And I think I read somewhere that the program is scripted? Is it one of those systems where you are supposed to read every word off the page exactly as written in order to see results? If it is, I'm afraid my son and I would both run screaming.....

[FairProspects]

How do you like Barton? I've poked around on the website, and it is sooooo tedious to listen to Mrs. Barton describe how the program works. Are the DVDs that come with the program like the demo materials? And I think I read somewhere that the program is scripted? Is it one of those systems where you are supposed to read every word off the page exactly as written in order to see results? If it is, I'm afraid my son and I would both run screaming.....

 

This was me too. Barton drives me up a wall. I'm glad it exists but it is not for me if I can avoid it. Have you ever tried AAS? That works well for my dyslexics although there was a learning curve for me to get a sense of the big picture and figure out how to break it down for maximum effectiveness.

 

[diaperjoys]

Yes, I have used AAS in the past, but the child in question was still too young at the time. I don't remember it being a dyslexia remediation program, but more spelling specific. 

[FairProspects]

Yes, I have used AAS in the past, but the child in question was still too young at the time. I don't remember it being a dyslexia remediation program, but more spelling specific. 

 

It is an Orton-Gillingham program and can be used as either. Dyslexia remediation is about syllabication & phonemic awareness - both of which AAS covers in spades. :)

[PeterPan]

Your state dyslexia support orgs may have referral lists.  They'll certainly have psychs on their advisory boards.  Google your state plus dyslexia plus psych and see what comes up.  And I agree, not a tutor.  You don't just want a label.  You want all the info on how his brain works (processing speed, whether he needs other referrals, etc.).  Our psych is extremely well-regarded for dyslexia and adhd in our state.  What he does is a bit different from what the 1st psych we used (with dd) does.  We liked that first psych, yes, but what this psych does is he does evals for the flat fee (normal) and then builds in there a check-up appointment 6-9 months later.  He also includes phone calls, an extra hour that would have gone to school advising, etc.  I'm excited about that, because I have a baseline and then I can see how far the interventions have gotten us in 6-9 months.  We'll sorta know, but it will give us perspective on how on-track we are.  

 

Specific tests?  Well that's sort of hit just by spending enough time.  If the psych spends 2 hours testing, they're going to get in the basics.  When they up it to 4-6 hours of testing, they're digging in farther.  The CTOPP is what you're probably expecting to hear for the phonological processing (dyslexia).  Beyond that, it's what they see and are digging in on.

[PeterPan]

How do you like Barton? I've poked around on the website, and it is sooooo tedious to listen to Mrs. Barton describe how the program works. Are the DVDs that come with the program like the demo materials? And I think I read somewhere that the program is scripted? Is it one of those systems where you are supposed to read every word off the page exactly as written in order to see results? If it is, I'm afraid my son and I would both run screaming.....

http://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html#screen  This is the link for the Barton screening test.  You're not even ready for Barton 1 till you pass this.  Might want to go ahead and do it now, just to give yourself the heads-up on what your next step might be.

 

I'm sort of a bad one to ask about Barton, because I taught SWR to my dd for years and years and have a situation with ds that is a bit different from only dyslexia. (The apraxia adds a layer of issues to work with.)  With him what I'm finding, and this is just my taking being basically through most of B1 now, is that he's intellectually capable of applying to harder situations and that Barton holds that back but that he also REALLY NEEDS the extremely nitpicky thorough steps of Barton.  Like we'd really have holes and be struggling needlessly without it.  And I own all of AAS 1-6 and SWR and used both.  Now granted I'm pretty hack and didn't use AAS for as long as FP.  (We were doing it after VT for a fresh run-through.)  

 

So for me, at this point, we'll see if this holds, but my thought process is that buying the levels of Barton is basically buying myself my own personal how to teach OG convention workshop seminar.  It's just me and her and she's saying her piece.  And then I have to use my head and adapt and go I'M A TUTOR, NOT A SCRIPT-READING ROBOT and use my head.  So I'm using my head.  On the plus side, it seems like she actually envisions this, because she includes shorthand for all the lessons in the margins of the tm.  

 

Btw, there's a recent interview of her floating around that TOTALLY shifted my take on her, how she talks, who she is, why she is the way she is.  It was a real lightbulb thing for me.  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/532973-interesting-video-interviewing-barton/?hl=%2Bbarton+%2Binterview&do=findComment&comment=6011280  There's the thread with the youtube link.  It's a rather long interview, but honestly it's worth your time.  Or at least I found it was.  It totally shifted my perspective on what is important, why it's important.  

 

I just got the links to watch the B2 videos, so I need to go do that tonight, tomorrow, sometime.  They're saying she includes hand motions and things you really can't pick up just through text.  So I hear you on the whole "I don't have time and she's like watching molasses pour."  On the other hand, if you can clear your slate and really focus, you're getting someone who may have CAUGHT a lot of the little details and glitches your dc will be prone to and so you'll get her HELPS for those.  When I read the tm, I see them.  I'm like DUDE, how did you know?  

 

That's no comment on FP, because you know she went through a couple levels of Barton herself before jumping ship.  I may do the same.  That's why I was saying don't buy the problem you don't have yet.  The first step is the screening test.  Just see where you are, kwim?  

[PeterPan]

Yes, I have used AAS in the past, but the child in question was still too young at the time. I don't remember it being a dyslexia remediation program, but more spelling specific. 

Barton 1 and 2 aren't meant to take a long time (though they can for some kids), but they might give you that extra you realize was lacking.  Trust your gut on this.  That's what I've got with ds.  I didn't have to know what Barton was like.  I just knew I've used SWR, AAS, HTTS, PR, WRTR, you name it, and looked at almost everything else enough to know my ds couldn't even come close to doing them.  If they would have solved the problem, I'd be using 'em, lol.  

 

The real question was Barton vs. what?  Barton, which is fully scripted and attempts to train as you go and gives you the shorthand to diverge if you need to?  Or maybe get OG training through a dyslexia school?  Or get Wilson training?  I mean, it's not like you have a ton of options.  With those other options, yes I would have learned more upfront, but I would have incurred greater expense and been left with no lesson plans.  And frankly, one woman's script is another woman's liberation plan.  I love it.  I'm crazy hack, and I know if I outline her scripts, see where she's going, and then sit down, I can teach on the fly.  I can adapt, absolutely.  I just need something printed in front of me to get me going.  Someone on the boards here was saying she spends *2 hours* prepping for every Wilson session she tutors!!!!  I don't have that time, energy, gump or anything else.  And I don't need to.  I need an outline and enough quick tips on what to nail and enough structure that I can use my savvy as a teacher and make it happen.  And we are.  I make Barton work for me.  

 

Over the years I've chewed to bits BJU tms, this and that.  I think it's saying something that *I* can get Barton to work, lol.  I'm really not a good user of things, lol.  

 

I can't promise it fits your kid and I can't promise I'll keep using it forever.  The thought of many, many levels makes me totally wig out.  I go crazy over wondering things like whether I could combine a different way to help him get to xyz place faster.  But I go back to lesson structure vs. nothing.  That was the choice (Barton vs. training in OG/Wilson).  I felt like it would be easier to start with structure and adapt, so that was my call.  And if it takes buying multiple levels and being really hack, whatever.  Ds really seems to need the nitpicky care she provides and I can make it work so far.  It's not like you are stuck.  If you do the pretest, whatever that indicates, the B1 and B2, you could jump into ANYTHING and have a more solid foundation.  You're not going to go wrong with Barton as a starting point and you're not locked in.  Your resale value will be fabulous.

[LLMom]

I would get him evaluated through the school before you pull him out because doing it on your own can be expensive if your insurance won't cover it.  A lot of them won't.  I had my dd tested through the school district when she was homeschooled.  They were very helpful.

[FO4UR]

Just my .02

 

 

Dyslexia certainly CAN present as a visual hang-up, tracking, reversals, inversion, etc...

 

O-G works well for dyslexics who have mainly auditory issues.  Dancing Bears (UK synthetic phonics) reading is excellent for students who have a great deal of visual issues.  If a year of O-G does not result in a reading leap, try Dancing Bears.

[sweetpea3829]

I would get him evaluated through the school before you pull him out because doing it on your own can be expensive if your insurance won't cover it.  A lot of them won't.  I had my dd tested through the school district when she was homeschooled.  They were very helpful.

 

But he wouldn't need to remain enrolled during the testing process...

 

I had my daughter tested by the school department, and then after that, I requested a full neuropsych evaluation, at the school department's expense.  They paid for everything, no problems at all.  And she's never been enrolled.  

 

In fact, I have an IEP/CSE meeting for her in a couple of weeks.  

[MerryAtHope]

Yes, I have used AAS in the past, but the child in question was still too young at the time. I don't remember it being a dyslexia remediation program, but more spelling specific. 

 

Right, AAS not for reading remediation, but is an Orton-Gillingham based program specifically for spelling remediation. For reading, you would use All About Reading, which is O-G based but specific to reading. They separate reading and spelling because many kids progress at different rates in each skill area. Here's an article with more info on why reading and spelling are separate.