Writing for big word retrieval issues?

[FairProspects]

We just cannot make any progress in writing with soon-to-be 10 ds. He is such a conundrum because while he is dyslexic & dysgraphic, his mechanics (grammar, punctuation, spelling, reading) are all very strong after remediation but he CANNOT write. He can't think in words at all and can't get the words out of his head. He types fluently so his physical dysgraphia is not an issue. We have done IEW and KWOs and while he could do it, he doesn't like it, and he can't move past re-writing paragraphs. After doing about 20 paragraphs, he was bored to tears but still not developmentally ready to move on. He has all of the mechanics pieces in his head but he can't put them together. Asked to write 4 sentences and one of each type about airplanes today (his favorite topic) he still froze and cried.

 

What (if anything) can I do about his severe word retrieval issues? Where do I go from here with writing? He can organize and type all day long and still not get the words out to do writing composition. I can't find a single writing program to address issues like this. It almost seems like he has nothing to say on any topic or nothing to contribute with words anyway. He is fabulous at drawing, 3D thinking, and building but cannot process in words. How do you teach someone like this to write anything at all?

[PeterPan]

Well you're ahead of me, but I assume we're going to run into some of the same problems you are because of ds' apraxia.  The way word retrieval was explained to me, the goal is to get all the words for a topic into the same file folder.  So if you look at the retrieval workbooks like at Great Ideas for Teaching, they'll show a picture/scene and then have the dc name EVERYTHING in the picture.  

 

What what you might try doing, besides practicing that obviously to get his brain organized, is to get some pictures before he writes.  If he's going to write on airplanes, google and find a picture of a whole scene with the plane in it doing the thing he wants to write about (manufacturing, bombing, whatever).  Then look at the picture and find the words and write them down to create a word bank.  Now he has the words in front of him.

 

I have no clue beyond that, because you're ahead of me.  Just seems like it ought to work.  Also consider list-making.  (all the colors you know, all the types of planes, all the steps in manufacturing the planes, all the states you know, whatever)  You're trying to organize the brain so the words are easier to find.  If he's stressed, it's going to make things glitchy, so the more support you can give to help him with retrieval (visual cues, etc.) the better, I would say.  

[OneStepAtATime]

Would Inspiration or even Kidspiration help?

 

 

[FairProspects]

Pulling up some pictures would probably help but I just wonder how long he is going to need that crutch? Doesn't he have to be able to think in words at some point? He is not always going to be able to find a picture that expresses what he wants to say.

 

I don't know if Kidspiration would address this. He can't think of one statement to write about airplanes at all. He just freezes and says he has no ideas. When I prompted him with "My favorite airplane is.." he just said that was stupid and he hated answering those kinds of questions (but at the same time couldn't get out any other ideas).

[PeterPan]

Well why don't you try it and see what happens?  If the issue is word retrieval, maybe an SLP eval would be in order?  Maybe find an SLP good with expressive language?  It's not like you have to go it alone.  He should have word retrieval scores in the info from his psych eval.  I'm using that term very specifically, not casually, if that makes sense.  And no, if he actually has word retrieval issues, using the pictures wouldn't be a crutch.  You're trying to organize the words in his brain.  Eventually he could learn to do it by reading and making lists himself.  It's not like the only way is with a picture.

[clemota]

Maybe word prediction software would help?  My dysgraphic 11 year old has found it immensely helpful.  She didn't realize how much her dysgraphia was holding her back as compared to her verbal skills until she started writing with it.  It's basically a super-smart spellcheck/predictor in a basic word processing program.

 

There are several different ones out there - some are sold only through school districts, but some are available for the general public; CoWriter is well-known but expensive, Ginger is available for 3.90 a month - that may be a good way to see if it's an option for your child.

 

We're using Typ-O from the Mac store on a Mac.  She types up items in there and then we copy and paste them elsewhere (notebooking-style pages, or in a LibreOffice doc).  It's been a good fit for her, but I know that every kid's dyslexia/dysgraphia is different, so YMMV. 

 

And please, don't think of an accommodation for your child as a crutch.  It's more like a step stool - it helps him grasp things that were previously out of reach.

[Heathermomster]

Maybe lay off the writing for a time and practice some fun word retrieval activities.  I found this sheet from SuperDuper Inc that may help you.  Once your DS can say aloud what he wants to describe, have him record his voice and play back to him what he's spoken.  I don't see using a picture as a crutch, BTW.  He'll need to practice those visuo-spatial skills in a novel way and learn how to harness them.

 

My DS did not start a formal writing program until 7th grade.  He tested out of the Wilson Reading program first.  DS could not complete an IEW assignment alone until the very end of 7th grade.  

 

[PeterPan]

Here's the book I've got.  G827 - Facilitating Word Recall  It will be a little young for your ds, but the sample pages might give you an idea of how it works.  And maybe you'd do well to buy it?  I think I picked up my copy affordably on amazon used.  It ramps up in challenge.

 

That SuperDuper pdf Heather found suggests *not* giving them a lot of time.  I think that's sort of a psychological/esteem thing and could have some merit.  On the other hand, with my ds giving him some time allows him to work through it.  For instance, in some of his testing they asked him to compare things like a stove and frig, orange and apple, to explain how they're similar and how they're different.  The obvious answer to stove/frig was hot/cold, but after some misstarts (where you heard /k/ but the word didn't come out), there was this long pause and out comes "one keeps things fresh, the other cooks"...  In other words, high verbal ability, high intelligence, but the words are not organized in the brain and are hard to retrieve.

 

I said this in my original response to you and then deleted.  You should NOT feel bad about working with pictures, word banks, or other other aids.  It's actually the therapy for the problem, the actual solution, to get the words organized in his brain.  All you're doing is helping it.  Think about it, we write from mental pictures ALL THE TIME.  It's just you're making the process a bit more physical and explicit.  

 

How does he do with narration btw?  With narration you have sequencing AND retrieval issues.  You also have working memory, obviously.  If he has that info in his psych report or a SLP eval write-up, it might give you some clues as to what's going on.  If he's narrating on something he experienced, he has to remember the details (working memory), put them in order (sequencing), and retrieve the words for the things so he can actually get it out!  That's a huge challenge.  I was reading recently that sometimes people with retrieval issues will put really generic tags on things rather than using the specific word, because it's hard for them to retrieve the specific word.  Kind of interesting to ponder...  So if you create the mental or physical picture and develop a word bank, he can be very specific about what he's thinking and not have to dumb down his thoughts.  And school exercises do this all the time in workbooks, giving a word bank.  It's just our WTM hack-ish-ness has us cutting out steps that actually DO BENEFIT kids.  I look at published curriculum so differently now, because I realize there were steps in there that maybe my dd didn't need (because she made the leaps automatically) that my ds would benefit from.  Not everybody should rush to the final product.  Some people need a lot more support in the steps.

[FairProspects]

Hm, well maybe it is more of the dysgraphia than I thought? He has very low working memory, sequencing issues, and word retrieval problems. Narration is virtually impossible. He just flat out doesn't write much at all unless it is a step-by-step retell like from a KWO (and even then he strongly dislikes it). I'm just at a loss how to help him move forward at all with all three issues. We do use Ginger and we are working through the program recommended by the neuropsych but he is still struggling. It is just hard to see how far behind he is. I've looked at so many 4th grade writing programs for next year and I don't know if he could do any of them.

[Heathermomster]

Check out the following link and specifically read msg #31 by 8FillTheHeart wrote about scaffolding her DS:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/515624-would-it-be-to-her-detriment-writing-dyslexia-related/?hl=%2B8filltheheart&do=findComment&comment=5722932

[PeterPan]

Hm, well maybe it is more of the dysgraphia than I thought? He has very low working memory, sequencing issues, and word retrieval problems. Narration is virtually impossible. He just flat out doesn't write much at all unless it is a step-by-step retell like from a KWO (and even then he strongly dislikes it). I'm just at a loss how to help him move forward at all with all three issues. We do use Ginger and we are working through the program recommended by the neuropsych but he is still struggling. It is just hard to see how far behind he is. I've looked at so many 4th grade writing programs for next year and I don't know if he could do any of them.

Honestly, I would put aside the pens and paper (or requirement to get text on screen) and focus on the overall process.  Sort of nibbled to death by ducks therapy approach.  Make a list on paper of 10-15 ways you could integration narration, expression, sequencing, etc. into your lives.  I'd focus on things that are brief but fun and real.  Games are good.  A person I know IRL who tackled this did this sort of thing, with just lots of real use.  You have to create a foundation.  You've got the get it onto paper end pretty well tackled, sounds like, with your work on typing, dictation, etc.  So now what you're wanting to work on is the other end (thought to word).  So you do things like bringing narration into your day.  Start somewhere and build up  Start with one sentence.  Start with living our whole day with an iPhone and taking pictures of your day and then talking about them.  Start with games for sequencing that have 3-4 images and put them in order and talk about what's going on.  Name all the things in the pictures.  Games, real life routines.  

 

I still think you could see an SLP and get some help.  They're NOT just for articulation.  There are SLPs who *specialize* in expressive language.  They'd give you lots of ideas and get you some momentum that you can carry over at home.  Right now you don't even know where to start.  Huge problems don't typically have miracle cures.  Huge problems are tackled with small steps of effort every day.  It's the little 5 minutes of effort here, 5 minutes of effort there, working on it 5-10 times a day in a number of ways, that creates a cumulative effect.  

 

What you might do, just to flowchart it (I speak as a fool) is find 3 explicit therapy tools to work on the three concern areas (word retrieval/recall, working memory, and sequencing), then make a pool of games you can use to target those, then make a list of real life activities you can use to sneak in more work on it.  

 

So then you'd have three categories

1-therapy materials

2-games

3-real life sneaky work

 

and every day you'd try to work in all three categories.  Drop something that is less important OR integrate one of those into another subject/task.  For instance, you could sneak sneaky work on it, in REALLY GENTLE form, into say your science.  

 

At least that's how I work with my ds.  I do lots of trying to sneak the skills into real life.  If he's swinging, I'll do digit spans.  I have explicit therapy materials, but I try to make that not the ONLY way I work with him.  I try to have games as well where we can work on our goals.  So all three categories, just inconspicuously, very GENTLY upping the step a LITTLE BIT.  Figure out what the next step is in those categories (working memory, sequencing, recall) and be content with a little step actually accomplished.  Little steps, over time, build to bigger steps!

[PeterPan]

Btw, have you seen the barrier games Jen has mentioned in the past?  Amazing, amazing potential there and you could either make a knock-off yourself or buy them.  They're on my gotta do next list.

[Pen]

 I can't find a single writing program to address issues like this. 

 

 

Bravewriter. Kidswrite Basic online class, if you get a good teacher, and if you can give it your main attention for the time you do it--really work hard and commit to the process.