Issues With a Spiral Program?

[nature girl]

How do you know if your child isn't suited to spiral learning, whether it's just not working for them? We're nearing the end of RSA, which is very spiral. She initially goes through the lessons easily, and seems to understand the concepts, but there's such a long time between when concepts are first introduced and later repeated that my DD seems to forget everything she's learned. For example, place value was covered early on, and then not brought up again for 2 or 3 weeks. The next time she saw the place value cards she reversed everything and had a hard time figuring out how to compose and read numbers. When I worked her gently through figuring it out I think she understood more readily than she had the first time, but that showed me that she might not have ever really mastered the concept.

 

Is that how spiraling is supposed to work, children seeming to forget but then picking concepts up more easily, and after several repetitions it sticks? Or would she do better in a mastery type program? Or is it that she's just not developmentally ready to fully understand some of the concepts, and I should have been working more slowly through the program? I don't want to move her to B till I know she's ready.

[PeterPan]

You did say RightStart A, right?  It's not spiral.  All curriculum builds.  Spiral curriculum introduces only small amounts of new material at a time and continually reviews old material.  It's beneficial for dc who need lots of repetition.  

 

Your dd is being 4.  What you might do is try practicing the concepts throughout the day to keep things fresh.  For instance, it's 4:30 now.  What will the minutes be in 10 more minutes?  We talk about time all day long, so it's easy to slide in mental math.  RS A doesn't even have that much with place value, does it?  I mean, as I recall, we did mental math with trades.  We didn't hit thousands and higher till B.  I've got RS A (2nd edition) downstairs, but my ds has some SN and needed to go a different direction for now.  I'm just remembering what we did in the 1st edition with dd.  

 

I guess it's no consolation, but my ds doesn't forget.  He just doesn't even get it, lol.  Getting and forgetting is basically just that she's young and needs to see it more ways and have time.  Talk the math, play games, have fun.  I play lots of math games with my ds.  You might try going that direction.

[boscopup]

Sounds 4 to me as well. :) FWIW, what my kids were like at 4 has often not matched what they were like at school age. I'd just slow down and do more games to reinforce things as you go along.

 

That said, some kids do have trouble picking something up when presented in a spiral manner (such as Saxon). My oldest and I both prefer to learn something, practice it until mastered, then do the next thing, occasionally reviewing the previous material. MM and Singapore were good fits for him. Saxon drove him nuts. I think RS would have been a horrible fit for him because of the plethora of manipulatives (I tried RS A with my middle son when he was 4... he didn't get much from it, but did very well with Singapore EM K and C-rods... just C-rods). My oldest never needed manipulatives, and they seemed to distract him from learning the material. Middle son does need manipulatives, but he also needed a pictorial example to "get it".

[RootAnn]

Echoing the others. A tight spiral curriculum will never really drop a topic once it has been introduced. You'll practice it or build on it every day (or every other day). 

 

Kids who don't do well with spiral either get frustrated with the constant practice because "I get it already!", they don't like the incremental nature (tends to be a complaint about Saxon), or so little of the concept is introduced that they can't see where the program is going (like teaching the steps of long division (algorithm) with 8 divided by 2 - but most kids are going to roll their eyes at you because they don't need to do all those steps! - and they don't see that the program is trying not to make long division scary).

 

The last two issues are sometimes related.

 

My younger kids forget things quickly - which is why we can't take too long of breaks from math and why I'm the opposite of strict about reading specific history books the same week as the related history lesson. The more reinforcement & repetition they get, the more likely they will remember *something* later. (Although, my kids are very much like me and sometimes have a spacey-moment. With me, it is names. With them, it could be not remembering what a comma is or what "that box on the calendar means".) 

 

Playing math games is lovely, BTW. My kids have all loved RS's making 10s game, but we actually play it with playing cards & play "making x" where X is anything from 5 on up to about 13. (Jacks are 11, Queens are 12, & Kings are 13).

[amyc78]

We do MathUSee and love it but now I'm confused about what makes it a mastery program and not spiral? We just finished Beta so maybe it will become apparent in later levels but so far it seems to follow the methodology of a spiral program- each lesson has 6 pages- 3 of new material and 3 that are half new material/half review of past material. Why is that not considered spiral?

[LikeToListen]

I use RS-A with DD (4.4yrs).  I take it slow with her.  She loves RS and definitely is capable of it.

 

Going by lessons as scripted didn't work for us.  I modify it to suit her learning style.   My daughter doesn't like to jump topics  until she has mastery over them. For example, lesson 21 introduces odd/even concept.   Kids are expected to master it at end of lesson 27.  They also introduce shapes (triangles, rhombus, hexagon) while she learns odd and even.  I do my teacher preparation to see what level of mastery is expected in the next few lessons and plan it accordingly.  We play with building blocks, tiles, centimeter cubes, counting bears and grapes during our math/snack time until she has mastered those concepts. I repeat it until she can answer my questions effortlessly (Is 6 odd/even and she would answer in a second because we practiced enough). Once she is comfortable, we work on shapes (though she already knows them)

 

Lesson 57 talks more about odd and even and unless my daughter has a complete mastery over it at lesson 27, she wouldn't remember anything about it when we get to lesson 57 - It might still be familiar but that isn't enough to handle the next level of complexity.

 

RS has aspects of spiral and mastery.  The gap between lesson 27 and 57 seems logical to me.   But working on two topics in parallel doesn't work for us and I plan accordingly.

[boscopup]

We do MathUSee and love it but now I'm confused about what makes it a mastery program and not spiral? We just finished Beta so maybe it will become apparent in later levels but so far it seems to follow the methodology of a spiral program- each lesson has 6 pages- 3 of new material and 3 that are half new material/half review of past material. Why is that not considered spiral?

A spiral program doesn't have 3 pages of new topic. They have maybe 3-5 problems of new topic followed by 25+ review problems, such that MOST of the lesson is review.

[Ellie]

How do you know if your child isn't suited to spiral learning, whether it's just not working for them? We're nearing the end of RSA, which is very spiral. She initially goes through the lessons easily, and seems to understand the concepts, but there's such a long time between when concepts are first introduced and later repeated that my DD seems to forget everything she's learned. For example, place value was covered early on, and then not brought up again for 2 or 3 weeks. The next time she saw the place value cards she reversed everything and had a hard time figuring out how to compose and read numbers. When I worked her gently through figuring it out I think she understood more readily than she had the first time, but that showed me that she might not have ever really mastered the concept.

 

Is that how spiraling is supposed to work, children seeming to forget but then picking concepts up more easily, and after several repetitions it sticks? Or would she do better in a mastery type program? Or is it that she's just not developmentally ready to fully understand some of the concepts, and I should have been working more slowly through the program? I don't want to move her to B till I know she's ready.

 

I'm not convinced that spiral vs mastery is the issue. I think it completely depends on how the thing was written in the first place.

[Ellie]

We do MathUSee and love it but now I'm confused about what makes it a mastery program and not spiral? We just finished Beta so maybe it will become apparent in later levels but so far it seems to follow the methodology of a spiral program- each lesson has 6 pages- 3 of new material and 3 that are half new material/half review of past material. Why is that not considered spiral?

 

IMHO, it doesn't matter. :-)

 

MUS is a process math; that is, it uses manipulatives extensively, as opposed to a traditional math like Rod and Staff, which may have visuals but doesn't use manipulatives.

 

Do you like MUS? Then it doesn't matter anyway whether it's spiral or not, right? :-)

[amyc78]

@ellie We love MUS, so no it doesn't really matter, I was just curious about the difference between mastery programs and spiral programs, and whether I was misunderstanding the two :)

[Ellie]

@ellie We love MUS, so no it doesn't really matter, I was just curious about the difference between mastery programs and spiral programs, and whether I was misunderstanding the two :)

 

I don't think anyone completely understands the differences, lol. I think there is a great deal of mush-up between the two, which is why I don't put much stock in figuring out which is which. :-)

[boscopup]

Technically, most (maybe all?) "mastery" programs are really a "soft spiral". They do spiral back to review old topics. The difference is that they spend time "mastering" one topic before introducing the next topic. There is review, but most of the lesson is on the new topic. Whereas a spiral program has very little new and is mostly review.

 

If you're doing a page full of long division problems, you're using a "mastery" program (even if it's a soft spiral that has plenty of review). If you're doing a handful of long division problems while 80% of the lesson problems are anything but long division, you're using a spiral program. :) So for example, my rising 2nd grader using CLE might learn subtraction with regrouping, have 4-5 problems on that topic, then the rest of the lesson is addition with regrouping, some basic multiplication, telling time, a word problem that does not use subtraction with regrouping, counting money, skip counting, place value work, etc. MOST of the work is review. Only those first few problems dealt with the new topic for the day. Then we go over to his Beast Academy, which is a mastery program... Let's say the topic is perimeter - he'll have all problems dealing with perimeter, ranging from easy to very hard. But they're all that topic. There might be 2-3 pages or more for that lesson, all on just that topic (it may utilize previously learned things, since math builds on itself, but they're all perimeter problems).

[SilverMoon]

If previous posters are correct about this being a 4yo, I would also suggest the DC simply needs more time.

 

That said, I have one DC who struggled miserably with spiral programs, but the rest of my kids have done great with either.

 

To clear up definitions...

-R&S math is mastery. It focuses on teaching/growing one main concept at a time, while reviewing old concepts within the same lesson. Those old concepts are just getting practiced, not going to the next step. Once beyond the lower levels it focuses on one topic for a whole chapter, and my DC knew every aspect of it before they moved onto the next one, *while* keeping old concepts fresh in the review section.

-MUS is extreme mastery, while keeping old concepts reviewed.

-Horizons math is spiral. Lessons are made of handfuls of problems of several different concepts. At the beginning of the lesson a new concept is taught, but the old concepts can grow or integrate with each other too. Concepts are consistantly moving forward rather than going all the way in one before the next as in mastery.

 

I think DC that actually struggle with the methods themselves are not common, and most kids will do great with either. My DS that can't succeed with spiral methods is hyper and insanely easily distracted. Constant changes make it incredibly hard for him to stay on task, and he/we have to guard him from them to keep school days successful. I am talking about a high schooler here though, not a little one. (This particular DC did K and first grade standing up, literally, and is the reason we originally started homeschooling.)

[Walking-Iris]

How do you know if your child isn't suited to spiral learning, whether it's just not working for them? We're nearing the end of RSA, which is very spiral. She initially goes through the lessons easily, and seems to understand the concepts, but there's such a long time between when concepts are first introduced and later repeated that my DD seems to forget everything she's learned. For example, place value was covered early on, and then not brought up again for 2 or 3 weeks. The next time she saw the place value cards she reversed everything and had a hard time figuring out how to compose and read numbers. When I worked her gently through figuring it out I think she understood more readily than she had the first time, but that showed me that she might not have ever really mastered the concept.

 

Is that how spiraling is supposed to work, children seeming to forget but then picking concepts up more easily, and after several repetitions it sticks? Or would she do better in a mastery type program? Or is it that she's just not developmentally ready to fully understand some of the concepts, and I should have been working more slowly through the program? I don't want to move her to B till I know she's ready.

 

Said gently. IMHO I don't believe you can expect a 4 year old to "master" a concept that quickly.

 

Using my 6 year old as an example: We played various counting games and such to help with the concept of place value, he went through a SM K program, we did various place value activities (among other math topics). And yet we came back to the topic in 1st grade...we'll go back to the topic in 2nd grade. Even my oldest ds's math programs cover this topic in more depth. My 6 year old quickly understood place value the first time, and yet we've had to review it a few times this year. 

 

It may be that you need to just give her time to mature. It will come around again. I also feel that young children need variety and hands on math activities. Place value cards are abstract, but work with base ten blocks, a teen board and beads, even straws bundled and so on first to go from concrete to abstract, and they literally get a feel for the concept. There's a push sometimes to get young children thinking in abstract symbols (which are what numbers are) and mentally doing math when they haven't had time to build the foundation with concrete materials. 

 

Review is necessary and built into most math programs. I wouldn't be worried if you come to a topic as you go along that needs some review. As you said she got faster than the first time...she learned it, but she's 4. Maybe it's just not important to her. Young children tend to hyper focus on skills. IME a young child may be intensely interested in letters and then seem to drop that and become focused on some other area. So you may see periods where they are really pushing learning to read and math skills are just there below the surface. It's the same development we see in infants....they are so focused on crawling that it consumes them...they learn that and they are on to something else. (intense focus getting that shape in the hole maybe). Young children are the same, but sometimes we adults get so focused on our curriculum and level of the books and such when they become school age, that we forget they need time and that they do have an inner timetable of sorts.

 

I also feel 4 is too young to get too concerned about spiral or mastery. The best math program is the one that  works for you, isn't causing either the student or parent/teacher stress, and gets done. The best math approach will also take a young child's natural development into consideration.

 

Patience Mama! And just keep moving forward and review when necessary.

[Korrale]

We have mastery programs where each chapter focuses on a skill. We are in the early years. Here is an example of how a textbook would be laid out.

 

Chapter 1: Counting and Writing numbers

Chapter 2: Addition with manipulatives

Chapter 3: Subtraction with manipulatives

Chapter 4: Addition without manipulatives

Chapter 5: Subtraction without manipulatives

Chapter 6: Problem solving and word problems (this would be the first chapter that uses both addition and subtraction)

Chapter 7: Data and graphing

Chapter 8: Geography with shapes

Chapter 9: Time and Money

Chapter 10: Measurement.

 

Now each chapter MAY have a little review but often not. It just builds upon what was learnt in a prior lesson.

 

Now a spiral approach would teach a little addition, do a few addition problems. And then introduce the hours on a clock, pennies and their value and maybe a shape or 2. And they would introduce 1 new thing each day. And before each lesson they would review the things that were learnt in the prior lessons. So each start of the lesson they would do the hours on a clock, pennies and their values, addition facts and shapes. Eventually one thing may be phased out to be replaced by something slightly more complex, Then time would go on to be half hours on the clock, nickels and their value, harder addition facts, etc. These lessons take place over several weeks with lots of review.

 

However I should note that the latter example is also an integrated math approach. Integrated math is practically unknown in the US. Henceforth the separation of Maths at higher levels with statistics, geometry, algebra, trigonometry, calculus... In Australia and other countries Maths is integrated and a Maths class overs all disciplines of math.

 

A spiral integrated math program is what works best for my 4 year old because, he learns swiftly but forgets what is not reviewed often. I have a few mastery type curriculums, the first thing I do is pull them apart and rearrange them to become slightly more spiral like. So each week we are covering addition, subtraction, time, money, measurement, data, word problems and geometry rather than doing time and money once a year of a month.