Algebra 2 with no help, or college algebra as dual-enrolled student?

[katilac]

dd will most likely take a couple of dual-enrollment classes at a local university in fall (her junior year). she is scheduled to take algebra 2, but I'm pretty sure she will be eligible for college algebra. If so, the choices are algebra 2 at home as planned, or just move on to college algebra. 

 

I don't care about the credits. My main reason for even considering it is the possibility that it might actually be easier to do college algebra with a trained teacher, rather than algebra 2 basically on her own, with me, the teacher's guide, and online tutoring as backup. I am not strong in math and am a bit phobic; dh is strong in math but spends hours going off on tangents so they don't go to him for help anymore, lol. 

 

Math background: generally does fine but doesn't really like it. She did a third or more of AoPS in 8th grade, but got stressed with the discovery approach (she was doing well, though). I think she would have liked it more with a teacher, but their classes are way too fast-paced. So, we started over with Kinetic Algebra on the computer in 9th - she tired of the computer approach quickly and it was a long, painful year. She finished the last few topics with a text we owned and got a strong B.

 

Geometry this year, down to the last 2 chapters in Holt Geometry 2007. She self-teaches 90% of the time. For challenge and extend problems, we sometimes need to go to the teacher book for more guidance. Likes it better than algebra and rather enjoyed proofs. Will finish with a low- to mid-A. 

 

She has zero interest in an online Algebra 2 class. 

 

Took a Princeton Review Practice ACT and scored 28 in math. 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

[kiana]

The ACT score is very good, getting that score after alg 1 and geometry indicates that she has a very strong ability, but college algebra may be too much for someone who's only finished Algebra 1, even if she places into it. The pace is very fast and everything from algebra 2 plus some topics from precalculus will be covered in only one semester. I would actually recommend doing intermediate and then college algebra at the college. That will cover her algebra 2 and part of precalculus.

[katilac]

The ACT score is very good, getting that score after alg 1 and geometry indicates that she has a very strong ability, but college algebra may be too much for someone who's only finished Algebra 1, even if she places into it. The pace is very fast and everything from algebra 2 plus some topics from precalculus will be covered in only one semester. I would actually recommend doing intermediate and then college algebra at the college. That will cover her algebra 2 and part of precalculus.

 

Thanks, I didn't think of that possibility. I will take a look at what they offer in between. 

[Teachin'Mine]

The ACT score is very good, getting that score after alg 1 and geometry indicates that she has a very strong ability, but college algebra may be too much for someone who's only finished Algebra 1, even if she places into it. The pace is very fast and everything from algebra 2 plus some topics from precalculus will be covered in only one semester. I would actually recommend doing intermediate and then college algebra at the college. That will cover her algebra 2 and part of precalculus.

 

Exactly what I was going to reply! 

 

Intermediate algebra would be perfect for getting her used to the texts, learning from a lecture, tests, pacing, etc..  She'll get confidence before moving onto College algebra.  Win-win situation.   And 28 is very good for having only two high school math classes.  She really does have potential and may really enjoy the teaching in a college course.  :001_smile:

[rhrice3]

I would offer much the same advice. My daughter did chalk dust Alg II, and then went to public high school the next year. Since she was not going into a science/math field I did not see a need for her to do Cal then AP Cal so they recommended dual enrolment. While she did very well in the two semesters, it was definitely a higher level math and she had some struggles with a few new trig like concepts.

 

I would definitely do Alg II first and then dual enrollment

Rhrice3

[Kareni]

I would highly recommend that your daughter complete Algebra 2 before beginning College Algebra.  College Algebra is sometimes called Algebra 3 and is a step up in difficulty from Algebra 2/Intermediate Algebra.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Sunshine State Sue]

Agreeing with the others.  Ds started at CC with Intermediate Algebra after Alg 1/Geometry at home.

[MarkT]

The ACT score is very good, getting that score after alg 1 and geometry indicates that she has a very strong ability, but college algebra may be too much for someone who's only finished Algebra 1, even if she places into it. The pace is very fast and everything from algebra 2 plus some topics from precalculus will be covered in only one semester. I would actually recommend doing intermediate and then college algebra at the college. That will cover her algebra 2 and part of precalculus.

 

I somewhat disagree.

I know someone who took "Intermediate Algebra" at a local CC using Bittinger.

It is a book designed to straddle Algebra topics for weaker math students before College Algebra.  See TOC listed below.

I don't see Matrices nor Trig.

Why not just use Holt Algebra 2 and then College Algebra and Trig?

 

[MarkT]

I like these checklists to see what should be covered for HS Algebra 2 and Trig (separate checklist):

 

http://cty.jhu.edu/summer/enrolled/mathsequence.html

 

 

[kiana]

 

I somewhat disagree.

I know someone who took "Intermediate Algebra" at a local CC using Bittinger.

It is a book designed to straddle Algebra topics for weaker math students before College Algebra.  See TOC listed below.

I don't see Matrices nor Trig.

 

 

I'm not sure exactly what you disagree with, as I never stated matrices nor trigonometry would be in intermediate algebra. (furthermore, matrices are in the TOC you presented, although topics 5-9 on the checklist in your next post are not, please read chapter 3 more carefully). What I was saying is that intermediate algebra AND college algebra TOGETHER would cover the algebra 2 and part of precalculus. I will stand by this statement, as any topics missing from intermediate algebra should be taught in college algebra.

 

Intermediate Algebra is designed to go between Beginning Algebra and College Algebra in the college developmental math sequence. While it does not necessarily cover everything that would be in an honors high school algebra 2/trig course (although there are VERY few topics missing from the algebra 2 checklist you pasted), it should be ample preparation for College Algebra at the same school, which in turn should be ample preparation for Precalculus at the same school. The trigonometry is sometimes taught in College Algebra and sometimes taught in Precalculus.

 

Doing algebra 2 at home as you suggested is of course an option that is already under consideration, but the mother in question was attempting to choose between alg 2 at home and college algebra at the college, believing that it would be beneficial for her daughter to have an actual in-person teacher. If a teacher is desired, doing int alg + coll alg at the college is a superior option to going directly into college algebra and will still result in all necessary alg 2 topics being covered this year. If she decides to do this, the next year the child can do precalc + calc 1 OR precalc + stats (depending on intended major -- if STEM, calc, otherwise, stats) and be well-prepared for college.

[EKS]

 

I somewhat disagree.

I know someone who took "Intermediate Algebra" at a local CC using Bittinger.

It is a book designed to straddle Algebra topics for weaker math students before College Algebra.  See TOC listed below.

I don't see Matrices nor Trig.

 

I used the Lial Intermediate Algebra book with my older son.  It didn't cover trig, but it did cover matrices.  It is assumed that the student will get a full dose of trig in precalculus.

[MarkT]

1) I'm not sure exactly what you disagree with, as I never stated matrices nor trigonometry would be in intermediate algebra. (furthermore, matrices are in the TOC you presented, although topics 5-9 on the checklist in your next post are not, please read chapter 3 more carefully). What I was saying is that intermediate algebra AND college algebra TOGETHER would cover the algebra 2 and part of precalculus. I will stand by this statement, as any topics missing from intermediate algebra should be taught in college algebra.

 

2) Intermediate Algebra is designed to go between Beginning Algebra and College Algebra in the college developmental math sequence. While it does not necessarily cover everything that would be in an honors high school algebra 2/trig course (although there are VERY few topics missing from the algebra 2 checklist you pasted), it should be ample preparation for College Algebra at the same school, which in turn should be ample preparation for Precalculus at the same school. The trigonometry is sometimes taught in College Algebra and sometimes taught in Precalculus.

 

3) Doing algebra 2 at home as you suggested is of course an option that is already under consideration, but the mother in question was attempting to choose between alg 2 at home and college algebra at the college, believing that it would be beneficial for her daughter to have an actual in-person teacher. If a teacher is desired, doing int alg + coll alg at the college is a superior option to going directly into college algebra and will still result in all necessary alg 2 topics being covered this year. If she decides to do this, the next year the child can do precalc + calc 1 OR precalc + stats (depending on intended major -- if STEM, calc, otherwise, stats) and be well-prepared for college.

 

1)  oops - I just read the chapter titles assuming Matrices would be one of them.

2)  I did say "somewhat disagree" - a local charter school here actually uses the college texts approach (including the one listed above) instead of HS level ones but they do it over the whole 180 day school year. They place by knowledge attained not by grade so a advanced 6th grader could be in with a slower 9th grader.

3)  Not sure if faster pace is the best approach at the HS level - IMHO  

 

 

[katilac]

 

2)  I did say "somewhat disagree" - a local charter school here actually uses the college texts approach (including the one listed above) instead of HS level ones but they do it over the whole 180 day school year.  

 

This would probably be my ideal solution! College algebra with a teacher over two semesters, not one. 

[kiana]

This would probably be my ideal solution! College algebra with a teacher over two semesters, not one. 

I would still find the lack of prerequisite knowledge from algebra 2 problematic. College algebra provides brief reviews, but they expect that the student has learned it before and simply needs to be reminded. Your dd's ability is high enough (seriously -- I'm not being snarky in the least here -- the ACT score is REALLY good for her background) that she might be able to handle it, but why? If she were chomping at the bit, loving math, and begging to move forward faster it might be worth considering.

[Teachin'Mine]

I agree with Kiana.  I would still start with Intermediate.  If you want to take a full year to prep for calculus, she can do College Algebra and then Pre-Calculus the next semester.  She'll still be getting all of college algebra in one semester, but she'll have a second semester of the same and a bit more preparation for calculus.  I wouldn't put her in the position of possibly finding the pace too fast and the content too difficult by putting her directly into college algebra without having had either algebra II first, or ideally Intermediate Algebra at the community college.  Just suggestions. 

 

I'd also encourage you to take her algebra I text, and maybe the geometry one as well, with you to the community college, after she's taken the placement test, and arrange a meeting with the head of the math department.   When I say you, ideally I mean her alone, but with you is fine too if permitted by the college guidelines.  I just wouldn't do it without her present and with her doing the talking and answering the questions.  Then you'll have more information to go by when making your decision about which class to register her for.

[katilac]

I would still find the lack of prerequisite knowledge from algebra 2 problematic. College algebra provides brief reviews, but they expect that the student has learned it before and simply needs to be reminded. Your dd's ability is high enough (seriously -- I'm not being snarky in the least here -- the ACT score is REALLY good for her background) that she might be able to handle it, but why? If she were chomping at the bit, loving math, and begging to move forward faster it might be worth considering.

 

College algebra over two semesters isn't actually a choice, so I think I'm down to algebra 2 at home or intermediate algebra at university. 

 

She's generally chomping at the bit to FINISH math, does that count?  :laugh: 

 

I really think she could enjoy some topics in higher math if she can get past the basics with enough enthusiasm to actually keep going. We have the Number Theory and Probability books from AoPS, so I'm thinking about just casually going through one of them as a family, maybe discussing concepts and going through solutions. Just let them know math is more than algebra & geometry. 

[kiana]

I really think she could enjoy some topics in higher math if she can get past the basics with enough enthusiasm to actually keep going. We have the Number Theory and Probability books from AoPS, so I'm thinking about just casually going through one of them as a family, maybe discussing concepts and going through solutions. Just let them know math is more than algebra & geometry. 

 

I like this idea. I thought math was easy but boring and just wanted to be done until I took discrete math/intro to proof.

[charlotteb]

My DS is currently in 11th grade.  He has trouble in math and I'm not the best at it either.  So this year, he has taken two "remedial" math classes at community college.  The teacher is hailed as one of the best math teachers around and DS has done very welll with his classes!  He has taken Beginning Algebra and Intermediate Algebra.  Our community college is very cheap so this has been a better option for us than even some curriculum! 

[hsbeth]

I would definitely to an Intermediate Alg. if available. I've had two students take dual-enrollment math courses but both had completed Alg. 2 at home already. If College Alg is the only choice you could do a quick review via ALEKS this summer. ALEKS offers an Intermediate Alg. It's intuitive so it won't force your child to review unnecessarily. Our second child used it for a refresher this fall prior to College Alg in the spring and has been really successful. The success has actually reawakened her interest in math! If I had rushed her into the C.A. class last fall as originally planned I think she would have ended up stressed.

[katilac]

I would definitely to an Intermediate Alg. if available. I've had two students take dual-enrollment math courses but both had completed Alg. 2 at home already. If College Alg is the only choice you could do a quick review via ALEKS this summer. ALEKS offers an Intermediate Alg. It's intuitive so it won't force your child to review unnecessarily. Our second child used it for a refresher this fall prior to College Alg in the spring and has been really successful. The success has actually reawakened her interest in math! If I had rushed her into the C.A. class last fall as originally planned I think she would have ended up stressed.

 

She's actually trying out ALEKS right now, b/c she doesn't like the new setup on Khan Academy, it makes it harder to review. She's doing Math for 4-year College Success, we figured that was the best one for prepping for the COMPASS test. Someone please tell me if that's wrong, lol. 

[katilac]

Thanks to everyone for all the input! She took the COMPASS test and actually placed into calculus, which she definitely will not be taking, lol. 

 

She's wrapping up geometry and doing quite a bit of algebra 2 with Aleks as well this last month of school. Currently, the plan is study math at home for the fall semester, leaving it open to take a math class at the university in the spring. 

[kiana]

I wonder if either of you realizes just how good at math she really is? Her scores and her ability to place significantly higher than she's actually learned indicate a strong natural ability to fill in the gaps, interpolate, and make connections. 

[Teachin'Mine]

I wonder if either of you realizes just how good at math she really is? Her scores and her ability to place significantly higher than she's actually learned indicate a strong natural ability to fill in the gaps, interpolate, and make connections. 

 

Exactly!   Getting a 6 on the Compass math with having had only Alg 1, Geometry and some Alg 2 is incredibly good.   She may find that once she has a math professor that she enjoys it more.  Even if it's not something she wants to major in, hopefully she'll decide that it's not something she just wants to get over and done with.   Whether she knows it or not, she is "mathy".  : )

[katilac]

I wonder if either of you realizes just how good at math she really is? Her scores and her ability to place significantly higher than she's actually learned indicate a strong natural ability to fill in the gaps, interpolate, and make connections. 

 

Well, I certainly knew she was much better than me, lol. I think her scores, plus the school's reaction to her scores, probably went a long way towards convincing her she is indeed good at math. I try to tell her that doing it basically on her own is really an accomplishment, but she tended to think that a good student wouldn't 'struggle' so much. She is definitely more motivated and, best of all, enthused, since taking the test. 

 

Exactly!   Getting a 6 on the Compass math with having had only Alg 1, Geometry and some Alg 2 is incredibly good.   She may find that once she has a math professor that she enjoys it more.  Even if it's not something she wants to major in, hopefully she'll decide that it's not something she just wants to get over and done with.   Whether she knows it or not, she is "mathy".  : )

 

That's exactly what I'm hoping for - that with a professor and some peers, she can actually enjoy it more! She has to take math throughout high school no matter what (mom requirement), so I'm hoping that's long enough for her to dip her toes into some interesting stuff. 

[Teachin'Mine]

Oooh!  Congrats on 5000 posts!

 

Katilac I think there's great merit in learning math on your own.  My dd did the same, totally by choice, and I think it forces them to think more about what they're doing and maybe even encourages them to make those connections more than if it was just spoon fed to them.  Struggling with math, in the daily work and not on tests, is a good thing in my opinion.  It shows that the work is challenging them and it's through them making the corrections that the material is learned even more solidly.  That being said, my dd really enjoyed taking classes and having a professor available for questions.   

 

Congratulations to your daughter!

[katilac]

Oooh!  Congrats on 5000 posts!

 

Katilac I think there's great merit in learning math on your own.  My dd did the same, totally by choice, and I think it forces them to think more about what they're doing and maybe even encourages them to make those connections more than if it was just spoon fed to them.  Struggling with math, in the daily work and not on tests, is a good thing in my opinion.  It shows that the work is challenging them and it's through them making the corrections that the material is learned even more solidly.  That being said, my dd really enjoyed taking classes and having a professor available for questions.   

 

Congratulations to your daughter!

 

Ha, I didn't even notice! And thanks, it was a relief to get the scores.