math concepts in K...not clicking

[Jenn in CA]

We haven't done anything systematic. But my 2 Ks don't have a clue about math and they don't get my explanations. I think I talk too much. Suggestions for curriculum to help me teach them very slowly?

They've been going thru Preschool R/S workbooks and get those but they know they're easy too. They'd like to do real math like big sis.

I tried Professor B which I love. Very challenging. Currently trying MEP, 1st grade I admit but they had no clue once it got past number recognition and patterns (lesson 7).

[jennynd]

do you use manipulative? miquon is excellent program for number sense

[kbutton]

We use Miquon and like it, but you might need to park in the first book for a while and make up some extra pages of your own for the kids to do. I think it moves a little fast for kids who are struggling--it's meant to be a first-third grade curriculum. Education Unboxed (online videos, free) has some great activities with cuisinaire rods. Math-U-See Primer is a great program. Montessori math activities provide a good foundation, but the materials get pricey. I do think that Education Unboxed teaches a lot of the same things with inexpensive c-rods rather than beads and racks, etc. that Montessori uses.

 

You might check out some of the recent Ronit Bird threads about understanding math. Maybe you can help them understand that what they are learning is REAL MATH too. If you read enough threads about teaching math, you'll hear from people with some pretty sophisticated degrees who learned some rather startling things teaching their kids early and elementary math (such as how profound little kid math really is). :-)

[PeterPan]

Well how "not getting it" are they?  RS has terrific scripting and is conceptually sound, but even though I taught through all the levels with my dd I can't get it to work for my ds right now.  For him I had to back up to Ronit Bird.  So I guess it depends on what you mean by not getting.  My dd's not getting was because I needed scripts.  My ds' not getting is because his brain just doesn't get it.  We have to break things down (at least right now) into the tiniest pieces.  Ronit Bird does that.  

[Julie of KY]

Manipulative are great! I use my Cuisenaire rods for Miquon (as intended) as well as with Singapore math.

[Heathermomster]

Maybe take dominoes with dot patterns 1-4.  Test each DD by quickly exposing a pattern and verify that each child can correctly identify the number of dots.  If either child cannot, practice subitizing activities until they can quickly identify the patterns.  Ronit Bird sells an e-book that can guide you.

 

If the girls can subitize, maybe pick up some c-rods and Singapore Essentials book B and work with them.  The book is cheap, very gentle, and intended for kindies.

 

 

[Jenn in CA]

THank you everyone. I did not know what subitizing or Ronit Bird were.... I think I do now. I did a little dice game with them. The 6yo got it, just needed explaining. I noticed the 5yo was counting the dots for 3-6, but after a few times she didn't have to count.

I'll keep trying and thinking about it.

OhE, yes, I think the 6yo needs scripting and the 5yo maybe needs to back up to more basic concepts. But she's also a younger K, Oct birthday.

Both of them were adopted from Africa 2.5 yrs ago and their backgrounds were certainly not full of enrichment and learning. I keep waiting for learning to catch up. I'm starting to think I'd rather go "full bore" with supportive materials Now, rather than wait until they're years behind.

What other Ronit Bird Could I buy has subitizing help? I don't have N iPad.

[PeterPan]

Well my ds is 5.5 with an October birthday, and I call him K4 to give him that leeway.  If the 5 yo got it after you explained, that's a good sign!  

 

I think you can use ebooks on your main computer as well.  Just read the section ahead of time and watch the videos included.  One of her regular print books will be $40-50, where the ebook (that obviously covers less) is $10.  It's an affordable way to start in to see if that's necessary for you. 

 

[Heathermomster]

You could try these free activities.  RS Kindergarten seems to be recommended often.

[Jenn in CA]

OK I just realized, OhE and Heathermomster, does RS mean Right Start or Rod n Staff?

I mentioned R/S preschool workbooks but I meant Rod n Staff. My friend recommended Right Start though which got me thinking.

Right Start looks like it might be a good fit.

[Heathermomster]

OK I just realized, OhE and Heathermomster, does RS mean Right Start or Rod n Staff?

I mentioned R/S preschool workbooks but I meant Rod n Staff. My friend recommended Right Start though which got me thinking.

Right Start looks like it might be a good fit.

Right Start math... :)

[PeterPan]

Bingo.  I don't go over to K-8 much to know what people are doing there now, but back in the day (haha) R&S was Rod & Staff and RS was RightStart.  Things may have shifted, dunno.  Sure makes it interesting when you read threads and are trying to guess.  :D

[Jenn in CA]

Yes, there's a huge difference between R&S and RS! Haha!

 

So, would you all recommend Right Start as being a program that really teaches early concepts well and gives me specific ideas/scripts on how to teach them? 

 

One thing I do *not* need is a creative, open-ended program. I think these girls need direct, specific tasks in small bits.

 

For ex. I was trying to do a little "story problem" using bear counters w/ the 6yo. The fact that it was a story totally distracted her from the number question. She was more interested in making up a story that didn't make any sense, numerically speaking. So I had to switch over to "just the facts": "3 bears here, how many over there?" etc.

 

 

[PeterPan]

RightStart has samples, and the samples, last time I looked (admittedly years ago) were representative of the materials.  

 

Rightstart

BJU

 

Both of those teach conceptually and have clearly scripted tms.  The distractibility thing is a challenge.  I would encourage you to embrace that more kinesthetic, exploratory style of learning.  If you read the lessons ahead, I think you'll find in those explorations things where you can introduce new concepts.  I do that with my ds all the time.  If he starts into something during our lesson, I just think of where it's going and jump right in.  For instance yesterday we were working on things that make 5 using a Ronit Bird game and I saw an opening to ask how far off we were when we rolled 6, 4, etc.  Little things, seeing where their thoughts are going, USING the moments.  A very creative child like that is likely visual/spatial and learning through story.  You want to work with the story, not against it.  When you shut down the story and go back to your linear script, you're moving AWAY from how they think and learn.  They learn in context, in stories.  Don't be afraid of it.  Instead read ahead in the book and learn how to capture it, use it to briefly mention an upcoming concept, then direct it back to where you wanted to be.  That way the moment isn't a loss.  You're rolling with it, they're rolling with it, and then they're ready to go back.

[Jenn in CA]

Thanks OhE. That is a great point. Looks like I need to prepare myself to actually think during a math lesson. :P

 

I found the RS samples too. I don't know if anyone here has heard of Professor B (what I used w/my 4 oldest... I love it), but it looks to me like RS is very similar to ProfB. ProfB doesn't use manipulatives (other than fingers), and it moves quickly. So maybe RS would be a great fit.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I want to say that again more clearly, because I don't know if maybe now we're getting to the heart of your frustrations?  

 

The difference between a new teacher and a master teacher is that a master teacher sees where it's going.  Your challenge, in a difficult situation or with strugglers, is to know where it's going and use the little moments.  You taught your olders in your sig?  Whole new ballgame with new genes and new kids.  Were none of your others very distractible?  What you're describing is so normal in our house, wouldn't even phase me.  That's how they learn: in motion, in stories, in context.  It takes a lot of energy to keep up with.  Maybe try putting math at YOUR highest energy time of day.  For me with ds, it's like PUT ON YOUR SHOES AND RACE TO KEEP UP!  Not that he's some intellectual giant, lol, but it's just this challenge to bring his energy into focus and keep up with him, you know sorta spinning the centrifuge to get it all to come to the center and focus.  So the more you feel up to spinning, the better it goes.  When I try to work with him and I'M low on the gas tank, it's just not going to hold together.

 

Also, I really don't know your dc, but I think from what you've described that you'd do well to look at the Ronit Bird ebooks.  RightStart is still pretty neurotypical and going to make a lot of leaps.  Your dc are stalling out pretty quickly, and RS might not change that.  Ronit Bird digs in with a LOT more detail.  I LOVE Ronit Bird.  I love teaching Ronit Bird to my ds5.5 as I did teaching RS to my dd.  RB is fabulous, fabulous stuff.  Btw, my ds' test scores so far place him quite high for IQ and he needs RB.  It's not a reflection on brains or worth as a person or anything else.  It's just this breakdown of concepts that some kids need to understand and get the click.  For instance RS does the things that make 5 in one lesson.  You do fingers, slide the beads, see it on different kinds of flashcards, and bam you're expected to have it.  Ronit Bird spends an entire CHAPTER on that, with enough material for us to spend a WEEK doing that one thing!!  That's a HUGE difference, and for some kids that kind of break down, making no assumptions, is essential.  

 

I'm crazy emotional over how much I love Ronit Bird.  Seriously.  There was just NO CLICK in my boy.  He couldn't look at his fingers and tell you he had 10 fingers.  RS A begins with the assumption that a dc understands they have 10 fingers.  It assumes they can UNDERSTAND the song yellow is the sun (6 is 5 and 1, 7 is 5 and 2, blah blah).  My ds has NO CLUE what that's talking about.  No click.  No sense of regrouping, that 5 fingers break into quantities.  That's what we're blasting through with RB, and the way she does it is BRILLIANT.  And RightStart couldn't have gotten us there because it makes too many assumptions for a dyscalculic dc.  My ds doesn't have a formal label, but I don't know what else I'd call it, mercy.  It's honestly astonishing to work with.

 

So that's just your rabbit trail, sorry.  I'm just saying I've taught both, like both, but there's just this qualitative difference in the dc they suit.  Don't be bashful to get as powerful a curriculum as your dc needs to succeed.

[PeterPan]

Thanks OhE. That is a great point. Looks like I need to prepare myself to actually think during a math lesson. :p

 

I found the RS samples too. I don't know if anyone here has heard of Professor B (what I used w/my 4 oldest... I love it), but it looks to me like RS is very similar to ProfB. ProfB doesn't use manipulatives (other than fingers), and it moves quickly. So maybe RS would be a great fit.

RS is going to be pretty advanced/challenging to.  By the end of RS A they're doing two digit mental math, I think with regrouping.  (29+13)  By lesson 40 of level B they're doing 4 digit written math.  RB is very similar to RS conceptually, but it just breaks everything into a lot more detail and gives a lot more games and steps to break things down and make sure it's completely, totally understood. 

[Jenn in CA]

RS is going to be pretty advanced/challenging to.  By the end of RS A they're doing two digit mental math, I think with regrouping.  (29+13)  By lesson 40 of level B they're doing 4 digit written math.  RB is very similar to RS conceptually, but it just breaks everything into a lot more detail and gives a lot more games and steps to break things down and make sure it's completely, totally understood. 

 

OK, that is good to know. Yes, I need much smaller steps. That makes perfect sense.

 

Apparently iBooks (unlike other forms of ebooks) can only be used w/iPad... so sad! What paperback book would you recommend? Also is it just a collection of games, or is there an order or a lesson plan of some sort?

 

And thanks for your words about harnessing their energy, and putting my best energy into teaching math. Yes, many things are different this time around:

1. My bio kids all got math very quickly; the 2 oldest all started community college engineering calculus in 10th grade.

2. The way I taught ProfB was by spending 10 minutes a day, a few times a week, so yes, they picked it up very quickly.

3. Now I have 2 very distractable little ones whom I'm trying to teach at the same time (re-thinking that one), who also have other challenges and in general, academic learning has been very challenging.

4. I'm older and tired-er and busier and... and.... 

 

Between this and my other thread about reading curricula, I'm realizing that a) lessons are going to be crucial; they aren't just picking this stuff up; and b) it's going to take me a LOT of time & energy.

 

Quote:

>>A very creative child like that is likely visual/spatial and learning through story.  You want to work with the story, not against it.  

 

I get your point, but this is my child who, in my reading curricula thread, I suspect of auditory processing issues. A story seems to distract because it's an extra layer of comprehension to get through. I need to think about this, about what being a visual/spatial learner is. I would not have said she is creative because she struggles so much just to stay in step with what's going on, let alone go outside the box. But maybe if we work on the auditory issues her visual/spatial side and creativity will be able to come out more.

[Lecka]

It was hard for me to realize my older son would not be one to just pick things up.  I thought he would just pick things up, too! 

 

He picks things up more slowly, but once he knows them, he knows them the same as kids who picked them up more easily.  It might just take some time, some building up of a foundation. 

 

[PeterPan]

Jenn, I googled this, and it looks like anything that is DRM protected (not free but paid) will not carry over to PC. 

 

RB's Dyslexia Toolkit  is what you're wanting.  http://www.amazon.com/The-Dyscalculia-Toolkit-Supporting-Difficulties/dp/1446267199/