Saxon Math is getting on my nerves...again. (could use veteran input!)

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

I've been home-educating a long time...since 1997 and have been on this board since it began. Those were the days when the format was a lot different, and SWB used to pop in and hang out with us here on the General Board.  2 of my children have graduated from homeschooling, and 6 are still in the trenches.

 

I wonder if this is just me.  I started this homeschooling thing when behavior and character were really important and grinding your wheat into flour to make bread was a big deal (now I have celiac disease..haha).  Curriculum was somewhat limited, yet was beginning to become readily available due to the Internet.  Just trying to date myself here..grin.  

 

Anyhoo, I have done a few different math curriculums (Rod and Staff, MUS, Singapore, and Saxon).  At times I wonder if this is just me, but you can take a horse to the water, but you can't make him drink, right?  I have learned this with reading instruction.  Could it also be true of math?  

 

Hopefully I can explain myself a bit better.  Saxon, our current curriculum, requires so much of my time.  My sons seem to need me to hold their hand as they walk through the homework.  This is my 4th grader who has trouble with reading (my only child who learned how to read during a short time in school).  I question whether or not some of the Saxon learning is necessary.  As Charlotte Mason would say, is this "twaddle?"

 

My older sons attended a local vocational school and told me that most of the kids that were in their class (from the public school), could not add or subtract very well.  My sons used a combo of Rod and Staff math and MUS.  They have done well and are in college.

 

Does anyone else ever re-evaluate and think that some of the curriculum out there is just over the top?  The reason I am on this kick again is because I just read the Moore's  The Successful Homeschooling Family Handbook (again).  They really  make me think about drilling in the basics.  I wonder if I am just out in right field doing Saxon and spending too much time on math. 

 

This is not a Saxon -bashing post at all, btw.  Maybe I am just getting older and less patient with some of my curriculum. 

 

I hope this doens't sound like rambling.  Any thoughts from veterans out there on this issue would be awesome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chris in VA]

Hi Camy! I remember you and your "boybarians!!"

 

Well, I'm not in the veteran catagory, but we did use Saxon--K,1,2,3 and 6/5. Dd thrived on it. She went to public school in 5th grade (see siggy) and did Saxon (at home) a year ahead. She used something else in ps. She's been in honors since starting school--in 5th-7th grade, that meant taking the next grade's math, and she started Algebra this year (Honors--doing WAY more than I remember in my algebra class). Her fact recall was great, her conceptual knowledge (which some say is lacking in Saxon) was just fine.

 

I broke Saxon up a bit by the time we got to 6/5. We did the lesson, including the examples, then she started on the homework part. She'd do a few, then work independently at a second math time later in the day. The next day, before "handing in her work," she'd go over it quickly to catch any little  careless errors. Then I'd look it over and just verbally go over any corrections.

 

Yes, it took some time, but it was time very well spent. I'm a believer in doing ALL the problems, too. That's how it's designed, and of course, there are plenty who tweak, but I didn't.

 

Perhaps you can take some time to streamline your day in other ways? Even freeing up a few minutes here or there may help you feel better about the investment in math.

 

That's my two cents.

[Critterfixer]

Also not a veteran, but I'm using 5/4 this year and I've noticed the same thing. Kids need a lot of help with the lesson, the mental math, the mixed practice, etc. 

Sometimes it makes me a downright grouch. I KNOW they can do the problems, because they come over for help, and usually, they don't really need help. They just want to talk through the problem with me. At the same time. So much of their need for help seems to be a need for Mom, if that makes sense? Sometimes, to give me a break, the DH does the teaching on Sunday. They don't ask him for help anywhere NEAR as much as they ask me. And a lot of the times I have to send them back to the table to read an example again, or to do a little more work, because sometimes they simply want the answer! I also get a lot of "Mom, check this!" which sometimes is simply a request for a pat on the back. It's like having two little birds that are sort of perching on the edge of the nest, but keep jumping back in it as much as they want to jump out.

 

Is all this simply twaddle? I don't think so. If anything, Saxon is teaching ME to be a better teacher, to be more patient, to slow down and think and to look and find out where the boys are having issues with their thinking. It isn't fun, not for me. But it's good for me. And they are learning more with Saxon math than they did in the previous three years of formal math. Others may disagree and probably will. It just works for us, but it's a slow and not always a pretty process.

 

What I have done recently that seems to be helping on the time crunch:

Math is one hour in the day, 30 minutes at night. Typically I can complete one lesson a day doing this. If I can't it's usually a sign I need to slow down.

Slow down-one lesson over two days. Useful when you just hit a stretch where things get a little tough, or one particular concept is causing headaches. It might be useful to pull one of the supplemental practices and do it as part of the lesson practice, and do the mixed practice the next day. Haven't done this yet, but I SHOULD have.

Assign evens for the morning, odds for the afternoon. This has been very helpful. Saxon tends to load the first half of the mixed practice with those killer word problems. By the time the boys get through them they are worn out and making mistakes in their computations. By cutting them down into two groups, they get to computation (which they love) before they are mentally out of gas. We get all the problems done, but we get them done in a fashion that suits their capacity for hard work. Sometime I also may try having them do the mixed practice backwards so they start with computation and wind up at the word problems and see how that goes.

[Hunter]

I haven't seen the newest edition. The series is getting progressively wider and harder. Have you compared your books to the 1st or 2nd edition. Once a preY2K homeschooler, always one, for most of us.

 

I have 2nd edition Algebra 1 and 2 here, and know I will use those. I used them back in the late 90s.

 

I have a partial set of 2nd edition 54. It looks okay. I'm going to track down some more second edition 54-76 or 87 I think.

 

Hake wrote 54-87, not Saxon, but at least the 1st edition was under Saxon guidance. Hake is getting farther and farther away from Saxon's narrower scope and sequence as time goes on. I understand your question is there twaddle in math. YES! There is.

[FloridaLisa]

Waving hello, Camy!  Good to see another oldie on the boards. :)

 

I'm about where you are in my homeschooling journey -- three have graduated and gone on to college and I'm still home educating four at home.  I have two highschoolers and then elementary kids. When I began formal math with my youngest two, I thought, "Aha! Now's the time to start them on Singapore." I'd always looked over covetously at the Singapore folks, knowing in my gut that my kids were missing out on the BEST that math might offer.  At the time, with new babies coming and homeschooling 5 and 6 kids at the time, my teacher brain just couldn't make the switch.

 

So, I started the younger two on Singapore.  About halfway through last year (2nd grade and K)(I informally schooled most of 1st grade math for my ds), I caved in and bought the Saxon workpages.  While I like a lot of things things about Singapore and ds is very math intuitive, I needed the structure and fact practice of Saxon.  Saxon fleshes out a lesson much more than Singapore.  

 

However, I skip A LOT of Saxon.  Yes, some of Saxon is twaddle if your child doesn't need it and it becomes just piled on worksheets.  I combine lessons, skip lessons and cross out problems that are unnecessary.  I've often already taught the material through manipulatives, games, hands-on activities. So, while Saxon makes sure I don't leave any gaps, I'm not teaching it by the book. 

 

You're a veteran.  Trust your gut. Do you prefer another math? MUS? Or Rod and Staff? if so, you should feel the freedom to switch.  I've found that I need curriculum to fit my teaching style almost as much as (or more) than fitting my dc's learning style. 

 

Lisa

 

[Dory]

I have noticed, in trying out Saxon for my oldest, that yes, it has changed a little over the years. Unfortunately, it's still the annoyingly, long, over-done math that I grew up with. I know it's good for some kids, but it drives me nuts. I hated it growing up, and I still have a hard time with it. It's just too much! It's not that I couldn't do it growing up, or even that it made me think too hard, it just was too much math all at once. The sheer amount of questions and the huge amount of reading up front made me dread doing math every day. I'm lucky in that my youngest two have been doing great with MM and some LoF for a supplement. Next year I'm going to let my youngest try out some Beast Academy with his MM.

 

My oldest doesn't mind Saxon, but teaching it just annoys me. It sounds like a ridiculous reason to switch curriculums, but I just can't teach from something I dislike so strongly. My oldest will be trying out R&S or Study Time Math next year with his LoF. I might let him try out Beast Academy and see what he thinks, but we would only be able to use it as review since he's already past the grade level that they have published thus far.

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

Look how long it took me to get back to you all!  

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to give some input.

 

Chris in VA!  haha..yes, the boybarians, you remember :o).  I needed to hear your story about a daughter who thrived on Saxon and that fact that your investment was worth it.  I also like how you break up the lesson.  It gets so heavy for my son who is dyslexic (probably the main problem for him with Saxon and why he needs me to help him so much).  

 

Critterfixer,  I know what you mean when you learn about yourself as a teacher.  Now that I am older, I have less patience than I used to, and it really comes out with Saxon! haha.  The odd/even split of the work is a great idea.  

 

Hunter, Pre-Y2K!!! haha..that is hilarious.  Some of my friends only recently used up their Y2K stores (grin).  The fact that you mention earlier editions as having a different level of difficulty interests me.  Twaddle...I am glad I am not alone with this observation when it comes to math!

 

Florida Lisa!!!!  Waving!  Life does get busy, doesn't it?  We really have to tweak things.  I am finding that my life is a different kind of busy now.  One of my twins is engaged (wedding planning) while at the same time, upper level sports with the other kids have me running around.  It was so easy when they were all little (I was clueless to this simplicity at the time).  The structure of Saxon does appeal to that part of me that needs it.  Teaching style, yep, that is more important than the student's learning style in my opinion as well (haha).  

 

Dory, you are stating my thoughts.  I have this long conversation in my mind with myself about Saxon all of the time!  Grin.  

 

Thanks again, everyone.  Thank you for letting me nonsensically (sp? is it a word? haha) express my thoughts.  

[bethben]

I have a child in Saxon 1, one in Saxon 5/4, and one in Saxon algebra 2. The algebra 2 ds does it mostly in his own - he's my math brain. I do the mental math with my 5/4 guy and he will do the mixed problems in his own. Yes, he does have questions and when he does, I refer him back to the lesson where the problem came from to see if he can figure it out on his own. I am spending time teaching him how to find the answer in order to make him more independent of me. My 1st grader gets my full math attention so she takes the longest. I don't do everything they say to do.

I don't consider Saxon twaddle. My 5/4 guy likes having "easy" problems ( the ones that have been reviewed over and over). I don't find anything wrong in mastering a concept to the point of boredom. I did switch my algebra 2 guy to Saxon from Singapore because I noticed that he was forgetting concepts as we got into the 4-6 levels. He's done well. I like the mental math better in Saxon than Singapore because it's assigned every day and gives some nice tips to make it easier.

I like how Saxon develops concepts bit by bit with practice. I watched in Saxon 2 how they developed the skills to find the quadratic equation gradually so it wasn't a huge bear all at once. By the time ds had to solve for "x" in the quadratic equation, he could do it with ease because he had practiced all the concepts leading up to it for weeks.

I'm happy with Saxon and am not changing any time soon,

Beth