What should my writing goals be for my 2e dd9?

[Tracy]

Dd9 is advanced in reading and spelling.  She has a great vocabulary.  She understands basic sentence construction and mechanics at least at grade level.  But her Executive Skills are really behind, and the physical act of writing is very difficult.

 

We are finishing our 3rd year of WWE.  It has been a very good program for her, helping her to learn to orally compose good sentences, analyze the writing of others, and write sentences correctly.  WWE4 would seem to be the no-brainer choice for writing for next year.  But it kind of has me in a panic.  I think the dictation is going to be too much for her.  

 

I would like to consider alternatives, but I don't really know what to even look for.  What should my goals be for this child?  Where do I start?  

 

(FWIW, I also have on hand MCT Island, TOG WA, and I have also considered taking the year off of writing to just focus on typing.)

[PeterPan]

Has she had an OT eval?  And is your sig crazy out of date?  And have you done Heathermomster's metronome homework yet, throwing in digit spans as well?  Metronome, digit spans, and physical comfort writing are way more important than structure with a 9 yo.  Blow inhibition to the wind and write ANYTHING, but work on those things.  Then in 7th come back in with structure.  Her EF might not be ready to see structure seriously before then.  There's a whole lot of pleasure to be had between now and then, if you can just accept it.  Seriously, have fun and stop worrying.  She's super bright, and structure will gel for her just fine later, when it's time.  It did for my dd.  

 

Metronome, digit spans, OT for physical comfort, that's what I'd be working on.  Can she type?  Has she done anything like:

 

Unjournaling: Daily Writing Exercises That Are Not Personal, Not Introspective, Not Boring!

 

Listography Journal: Your Life in Lists  List-making is super awesome for word retrieval and how their brains organize and get out language.

 

The Lifeguard's Locker  Just the writing prompts from here.  Ditch the rest.

 

Wordsmith Apprentice: Writing Excellence Through Unique, Skill-Buidling Exercises for Grades 4-6  Dd enjoyed this at that age.

 

Book Projects  Mrs. Renz's book projects are AWESOME.  This lady won Disney Teacher of the Year for a reason!  :D

 

We did dictation at that age, yes.  We sort of mixed things up, sometimes using literature (quality read alouds), sometimes using the sentences in the Wise Guide (SWR).  You're correct that dictation is drawing on working memory.  My personal opinion is that therapy is therapy, school is school, and don't make them hate school by turning it into therapy.  There are fun ways to work on working memory, so you needn't do it during a physically painful process like writing that is taxing every core of their being.  Separate stuff out, work on the components, then bring it all back together as they gel.

 

We did outline articles from Muse Magazine - www.MuseMagKids.com - Science, Games, and ...  using an app on the iPad or a whiteboard.  I highly recommend this as a way to get to know Inspiration.  You might as well go ahead and invest in the Inspiration app and software.  She can start with one level outlines using the visual mapping of Inspiration and then toggle it over to linear outline.  Highly, highly, highly recommend. The more you can get into their thick skulls that they have brilliant thoughts that can be ORGANIZED if they let them be, the better off you'll be.  So everywhere WTM says to outline, DON'T DO IT.  Get out your Inspiration app or Inspiration on your computer and use Inspiration.  

Inspiration Software, Inc. - The Leader in Visual Thinking and ...

 

Does she LIKE boring regurgitation writing (narrations) or does she yearn for something creative?  About the awesomest writing program we ever did was Writing Tales - a Curriculum for Classical Homeschoolers  Go for level 2.  Don't quibble over the lengths but set some reasonable compromise, like retelling a single scene from the model or having a minimum page amount that works for her.  Don't die on the wrong hills, kwim?  Let her enjoy the thought process.  The grammar analysis they do is similar to IEW's without being stodgy.  You might like it immensely.

 

These are the things we did, and I guess you can gauge for yourself how they worked out.  I think audiobooks and reading to build their language reservoir in their brain, focusing on their physical comfort getting things out, etc., are much more important than whether we scale down high school writing to 4th graders, kwim?

 

[maize]

You could do typed copy work and dictation. Choose a good literary passage, print it in large type and prop it in front of her for her to copy. Then maybe the next day dictate the same passage to her and have her type it. Of course you could use the same procedure for hand written copy work and dictation, or even do both on different days. If she is just learning to type you could start out really simple.

[Tracy]

Has she had an OT eval?  And is your sig crazy out of date?  

 

Yes, my sig is crazy out of date.  I just fixed it.  

 

No, she has never had an OT eval.  She was writing by 3yo on her own, and her handwriting is good.  We worked on writing stamina a couple of years ago, and she has not complained of tired hands since then.  She continues to use Stetro grips on mechanical pencils, or she does begin to complain again.  

 

I am convinced that it is more of a slow-processing issue.  (I am looking into neurological evals now.)  She stops after every single word, looks around, fidgets, etc.  (This is actually an improvement from when she used to stop in the middle of every word.)  She is distracted by everything from her surroundings to her own thoughts.  (Yet give her a book to read, and nothing can get her attention.)  We have made many accommodations for her, including making sure she gets enough sleep, teaching her to use routines and habits, using tools like schedules and timers, paring down school to the bare minimum + those things she most enjoys.  

 

 

Metronome, digit spans, OT for physical comfort, that's what I'd be working on.  Can she type?  

 

The last 2 summers, she has worked on typing, but she is not proficient enough yet to prefer it over writing.  I want her to work on it again this summer, but I am thinking it is time to buckle down and really get her proficient, even it if it means giving up writing for a while.  I don't see how I can add it in without bumping something else out.  

 

What is Metronome and digit spans?  

 

 

Does she LIKE boring regurgitation writing (narrations) or does she yearn for something creative?  About the awesomest writing program we ever did was Writing Tales - a Curriculum for Classical Homeschoolers  Go for level 2.  Don't quibble over the lengths but set some reasonable compromise, like retelling a single scene from the model or having a minimum page amount that works for her.  Don't die on the wrong hills, kwim?  Let her enjoy the thought process.  The grammar analysis they do is similar to IEW's without being stodgy.  You might like it immensely.

 

She likes the passages in WWE.  She finds them interesting, sometimes even exciting.  But the composition part of it, even orally, is challenging.  She talks about wanting to be an author, but I have never seen her write anything of any substance.  One of the reasons we have used WWE is because she has such a hard time composing anything original.  So on one hand, she has this fantasy of wanting to write and has a lot of general ideas, but for some reason, she cannot get them out, even orally.  

[Tracy]

There are fun ways to work on working memory, so you needn't do it during a physically painful process like writing that is taxing every core of their being.  Separate stuff out, work on the components, then bring it all back together as they gel.

 

I am not sure if there is a working memory problem.  When we do dictations, no matter how long it takes to write them down, she rarely ever forgets anything in the sentence.  

[maize]

She is distracted by everything from her surroundings to her own thoughts. (Yet give her a book to read, and nothing can get her attention.)

Just a small comment on this. I have always struggled with focus and attention, my mind would jump from thing to thing to thing. I was a dedicated bookworm growing up and I think one of the biggest things that drew me to reading was that an interesting book could grab and hold my attention--reading was the only time I didn't feel muddle headed and distracted.

[PeterPan]

Yes, my sig is crazy out of date.  I just fixed it.  

 

No, she has never had an OT eval.  She was writing by 3yo on her own, and her handwriting is good.  We worked on writing stamina a couple of years ago, and she has not complained of tired hands since then.  She continues to use Stetro grips on mechanical pencils, or she does begin to complain again.  

 

I am convinced that it is more of a slow-processing issue.  (I am looking into neurological evals now.)  She stops after every single word, looks around, fidgets, etc.  (This is actually an improvement from when she used to stop in the middle of every word.)  She is distracted by everything from her surroundings to her own thoughts.  (Yet give her a book to read, and nothing can get her attention.)  We have made many accommodations for her, including making sure she gets enough sleep, teaching her to use routines and habits, using tools like schedules and timers, paring down school to the bare minimum + those things she most enjoys.  

 

 

 

The last 2 summers, she has worked on typing, but she is not proficient enough yet to prefer it over writing.  I want her to work on it again this summer, but I am thinking it is time to buckle down and really get her proficient, even it if it means giving up writing for a while.  I don't see how I can add it in without bumping something else out.  

 

What is Metronome and digit spans?  

 

 

 

 

She likes the passages in WWE.  She finds them interesting, sometimes even exciting.  But the composition part of it, even orally, is challenging.  She talks about wanting to be an author, but I have never seen her write anything of any substance.  One of the reasons we have used WWE is because she has such a hard time composing anything original.  So on one hand, she has this fantasy of wanting to write and has a lot of general ideas, but for some reason, she cannot get them out, even orally.  

I'm sorry, I lose track.  She has had a neuropsych eval or she has not?  Clearly you need to get that done, as that's the best way to get answers to these things.  Our psych dug in on all kinds of things I hadn't anticipated like word retrieval, motor control, etc.  You're shooting blind right now.  If you could get your evals now and THEN choose your curriculum for fall, you might be a lot happier.  Seriously.  The evals might radically change what you're trying to do and give you goals you never realized you needed to have.

 

I never would have thought my dd was capable of the type of writing and verbal insight she does now.  She has very low processing speed, so yes I had to change how I work with her.  She has issues with word retrieval, so we have to allow for that.  She was much older when her writing gelled, more like end of 7th.  I remember very distinctly this episode with her saying to me that she would NEVER be like me, that she wasn't like me writing for pleasure and to talk with people...  And what did she spend all last year doing?  Entering LotR fan fiction contests...  :D  Seriously you CANNOT tell where they're going to end up.  

 

Do the evals.  They may blow your mind.  She's probably going to have some strengths that will shock you and some weaknesses you can target with the info.  

[Heathermomster]

Hi there.  I just wanted to mention a couple of things...

 

OTs are the people that administer interactive metronome (IM) therapy.  IM supposedly improves sustained focus, EF, and other LDs.  My DS underwent IM therapy about one and one-half years ago for six to seven weeks.  It was over the summer so did not interfere with school.  Three months later, son's trumpet tutor was blown away by DS's improvement with focus.  OTs can also check for retained primitive reflexes that affect one's ability to sit still.  

 

DS took one semester of 5th grade to become proficient with typing.  We spent 20 minutes, first thing in morning at 5 days per week.  It was a push; however, I am a shameless briber when the need presents itself.  During that time, DS read/listened to four to five books for lit, summarizing every three chapters, drew story webs, and wrote about some scientists that we had covered.  I don't think you need to forgo writing as she learns to type.  I don't know this for sure, but it was my understanding that WWE4 is simply more practice of WWE3, and that some people skip WWE4.  Maybe scaling back a little with WWE4 would not be hurtful as your DD types.  Anyhoo...that's how we did it.

 

 

 

[Tracy]

Do the evals.  They may blow your mind.  She's probably going to have some strengths that will shock you and some weaknesses you can target with the info.  

 

Okay, I will make the evals a priority.  We are on Spring Break next week, so I can work on that.  

 

But I don't like not having plans for the Fall!   :glare:

 

Thanks, OhElizabeth!

[FairProspects]

I'm sorry, I lose track.  She has had a neuropsych eval or she has not?  Clearly you need to get that done, as that's the best way to get answers to these things.  Our psych dug in on all kinds of things I hadn't anticipated like word retrieval, motor control, etc.  You're shooting blind right now.  If you could get your evals now and THEN choose your curriculum for fall, you might be a lot happier.  Seriously.  The evals might radically change what you're trying to do and give you goals you never realized you needed to have.

 

I never would have thought my dd was capable of the type of writing and verbal insight she does now.  She has very low processing speed, so yes I had to change how I work with her.  She has issues with word retrieval, so we have to allow for that.  She was much older when her writing gelled, more like end of 7th.  I remember very distinctly this episode with her saying to me that she would NEVER be like me, that she wasn't like me writing for pleasure and to talk with people...  And what did she spend all last year doing?  Entering LotR fan fiction contests...   :D  Seriously you CANNOT tell where they're going to end up.  

 

Do the evals.  They may blow your mind.  She's probably going to have some strengths that will shock you and some weaknesses you can target with the info.  

 

Yes, but it is a very long, slow process. I could never expect that kind of writing out of my 9 y.o. I have a hard time setting writing goals for this age too because I've been told to expect it to gel in adolescence. I feel a bit like I'm just sitting around waiting for a system upgrade.

 

[Heathermomster]

If you wanted to lay off the pencil work for a semester, Evan-Moor publishes books titled How to Report on Books that are filled with more project based activities.

[Heathermomster]

I used Scholastic's Quick & Creative Reading Response Activities with DS, and he seemed to enjoy it. A link follows:

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Reading-Response-Activities-Learn/dp/0439098459/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2UIQR8SU0BTJ0&coliid=I116KHLMQBJM7

 

I think I liked the Scholastic Publishing title better than E-M's. Scholastic periodically hosts $1 sales, so you could pick up that title cheap.

[texasmama]

I second the recommendation for Writing Tales 2.  I love this program so much that the author should probably pay me to do commercials.  ;)  I think your dd will absolutely love it. 

[PeterPan]

I used Scholastic's Quick & Creative Reading Response Activities with DS, and he seemed to enjoy it. A link follows:

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Reading-Response-Activities-Learn/dp/0439098459/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2UIQR8SU0BTJ0&coliid=I116KHLMQBJM7

 

I think I liked the Scholastic Publishing title better than E-M's. Scholastic periodically hosts $1 sales, so you could pick up that title cheap.

Ooo, how fun!  Also the stuff by Michael Gravois is fun.  It went out of print for a while, but now you can get the books easily.  People get so in the box, thinking when WTM says narration and not to press creativity that it means you needn't bother.  Some kids REALLY open up and come alive when you bring in some design, creativity, fonts, color, audience, etc.  

 

 

Yes, but it is a very long, slow process. I could never expect that kind of writing out of my 9 y.o. I have a hard time setting writing goals for this age too because I've been told to expect it to gel in adolescence. I feel a bit like I'm just sitting around waiting for a system upgrade.

 

I'm sorry you're feeling so frustrated.  Does she have ANY ability to write ANYTHING?  See I've been blessed for a few years now to have these backchannel conversations with someone whose dc had severe dysgraphia, so I have years of somebody saying to me in my ear that if you don't kill their love of writing by pushing things too soon, if you hold back and let discussion (oral writing!) and thought take the place of written work, if you create ways for them to ENJOY whatever they CAN do, then it will come together in the end.  

 

There are professional, published writers who are dyslexic.  I've read the writing by this dysgraphic child I'm thinking of, and it's terrific now that the dc is ready.  But you get there by waiting a lot longer than the board fads seem to dictate.  You get there by doing enjoyable things with writing, things that have audience and a purpose.  You get there by ditching this thought that there's only ONE genre, one goal, and that anything else is a FAILURE and worthless.  

 

It's very hard to back up from the board fads and embrace what your dc CAN do with thought and then say it's ok if the mom types it, ok if it's not the particular genre SWB says, etc. etc.  I'd rather see a program for a circus that the mom scribes and the kid dictates that is with engagement and joy than to see reams of boring, soul-less narrations, kwim?  My dc put on a circus around that age, a really real circus (to her) with cages of creatures and games and signs and...  Is any writing she does for that not valid because it's not the genre SWB picked to put in WTM?  Of course not.  It's still thought to word, word to paper.  It's still showing voice and exploring audience.  Lots of types of writing are worthwhile, and what you're doing in this stage is RETAINING THE JOY of expression while all the skills come together.  Do whatever it takes to keep the joy, explore all forms of writing that gives joy, and stop worrying.  It WILL come together in the end.  Junior high and high school WILL happen, puberty will end, they will get their brains back.  My dd GETS why she does stuff now, but she's 14, almost 15.  She didn't at 9, and no amount of pushing would have changed it.  

 

Listography is single words.  Did you look at that book?  If your dc can write SINGLE WORDS, they can enjoy it.  If they can't write single words, then you do it together and scribe for her!  Take turns with the lists and trade ink colors.  

 

You can also play word games.  Anything you do with speech is pre-writing.  Remember, SWB breaks it down into thought to word and word to paper.  Games using speech are thought to word.  Have you seen Dixit?  Dixit

 

If you outline Muse articles with a graphic organizer app, that's single words.  She doesn't even have to type them.  You can read aloud the article together, talk about the article, and YOU type.  I totally sucked my dd into sentence diagramming this way, hehe, because I would never let HER do the diagramming on the whiteboard as we parsed.  Finally she was RIPPING off the marker to do the diagramming herself, the little nut.  There's serious power in pleasure withheld.  :D

 

When we did WT2, I had to allow her to cut the work down to a single scene or half page (typed) retelling.  She wasn't a functional typist, so I typed what she told me (including punctuation).  We made it work for us, kwim?  We were doing it as a co-op class, so we got the pleasure of playing the games, doing the grammar analysis, etc. without dying on some hill.  

 

My dd never thought she'd enjoy writing the way that she does now, but we didn't push it.  We did Mrs. Renz book projects instead of full written narrations.  We delayed stuff a LOT.  Look at us, doing WWS2 in 9th.  It works for us, even if people do like to look at that and say we aren't rigorous enough, blah blah.  Whatever.  

 

I fundamentally believe that these kids have a LOT to say inside, a lot to give to the world with connection-making.  It's inherent in their brain design.  (see Dyslexic Advantage)  Because I believe there's so much inside to give, I don't have to worry about whether it's in there, which is what most people worry about.  I have to worry about whether she can organize it to get it out and whether she can physically get it out.  When I realize that, that the problem is not whether she can think but whether it will come out, then I'm fighting the real enemy, kwim?  The disability is in the motor control, the organization, the initiation humps, the working memory, etc.  The disability is not one of content, worth, analysis, or thinking.

 

list of 25 Famous Authors with Dyslexia

[Tracy]

I'm sorry you're feeling so frustrated.  Does she have ANY ability to write ANYTHING?  See I've been blessed for a few years now to have these backchannel conversations with someone whose dc had severe dysgraphia, so I have years of somebody saying to me in my ear that if you don't kill their love of writing by pushing things too soon, if you hold back and let discussion (oral writing!) and thought take the place of written work, if you create ways for them to ENJOY whatever they CAN do, then it will come together in the end.  

 

I am the OP, and I think you got me mixed up with another poster.  I am not so very frustrated as the poster you were replying to.  Mostly right now, I am just trying to figure out what my options are.  My dd9 does occasionally write a poem, and she likes to write in her journal, though she doesn't do it often.  It might be good to use some journal prompts and make that her writing for now.  I do have MCT Island in line for next year, and there are are some creative writing assignments there.  We also use TOG, so I could see if we can use WA to tie her writing into her history.  

 

Part of my concern about jumping the WWE ship, though, is that WWE has been fast and (relatively) painless.  We know what needs to be done, and it gets done without a lot of thought.  If I give her an open-ended assignment, she might very well be very excited about it.  But then it could suck up hours of her time.  

[texasmama]

Part of my concern about jumping the WWE ship, though, is that WWE has been fast and (relatively) painless.  We know what needs to be done, and it gets done without a lot of thought.  If I give her an open-ended assignment, she might very well be very excited about it.  But then it could suck up hours of her time.  

Writing Tales is structured and not very time-consuming.  There are retellings (rough draft), followed by a final draft.  It doesn't sound like this would be an issue for your dd. (Told you I could do a commercial.)

 

At least promise me that you will look at it.  :D

[PeterPan]

I am the OP, and I think you got me mixed up with another poster.  I am not so very frustrated as the poster you were replying to.  Mostly right now, I am just trying to figure out what my options are.  My dd9 does occasionally write a poem, and she likes to write in her journal, though she doesn't do it often.  It might be good to use some journal prompts and make that her writing for now.  I do have MCT Island in line for next year, and there are are some creative writing assignments there.  We also use TOG, so I could see if we can use WA to tie her writing into her history.  

 

Part of my concern about jumping the WWE ship, though, is that WWE has been fast and (relatively) painless.  We know what needs to be done, and it gets done without a lot of thought.  If I give her an open-ended assignment, she might very well be very excited about it.  But then it could suck up hours of her time.  

Sorry, it was FP I quoted and was responding to.

 

With my dd, I didn't put all my eggs in one basket, kwim?  In a given week we'd do dictation AND make an interesting history writing AND do some journal prompts AND ...  SWB calls it "nibbled to death by ducks" hehe...  I definitely think it's good to have those kinds of things you know can get done every day.  Why would you NOT do WWE?  It seems like you want to.  Is something holding you back or making you think you shouldn't?  

 

I saw MCT in person at the convention and wasn't impressed with him.  I forget your dd's potential problems, but I found his ideas to be very vague.  With my dd I need more STRUCTURE.  It's sort of bizarre, because on the one hand dd is inherently NOT linear and bucks a linear presentation.  On the other hand, she actually NEEDS that linear presentation to give her the steps for clear structure, kwim?  That's how we end up with our love/hate relationship with WWS...

 

A mix is good.  I used journal prompts because we could just work on comfort getting thoughts out, without respect to content.  I would have her rewrite a sentence she edited from a daily editing book, and that was copywork (working on punctuation, conventions, etc. without respect to content).  I'd try to get her doing something creative with writing once a week, once every other week.  At one point we used some workbooks LauraCorin suggested to us that walked  you through steps to creating short stories.  Other times we created little writing projects (captain's log, etc.) to go with our history or lit.  Sometimes we did the book projects.  Just shake things up, keep variety, and know what skills you're trying to work on with the mix you're giving her, kwim?  

 

So yes, that was our experience too, that the less structured the task was, the more likely it was to take a long time or need a time limit.  So with the journaling prompts, I actually set a timer or told her when to stop.  LauraCorin used to put it that she would hand her kid the paper and just say WRITE for 5 min and stop.  Write anything, write blah blah.  My kid couldn't do that, lol.  

 

I guess what do YOU want to accomplish?  Is it more that you know she should be writing something but you don't know what?  Duh, that's what you said, lol.  WTM has goals.  In 5th they're trying to do one-level outlines and write simple narrations.  So in 4th you're building up the skills to be ready for that in 5th.  But it just depends on your kid as to what fashion those skills should take.  It's really a continuation of 3rd as far as skills.  It sounds like she *does* enjoy writing, so if you keep doing what you were doing, you're probably fine.  Have you looked at the WTM 5th gr recs to see where this is going?  Maybe that would help you see the roadmap?  Also SWB has her talk.  You really have to take it all with a grain of salt and say it's ok to do it other ways, with other genres, not pen to paper, blah blah.  But yes, just for a basic framework of how things might progress in the most linear fashion, I referred back to WTM and SWB's talks regularly.  

[Tracy]

Sorry, it was FP I quoted and was responding to.

 

With my dd, I didn't put all my eggs in one basket, kwim?  In a given week we'd do dictation AND make an interesting history writing AND do some journal prompts AND ...  SWB calls it "nibbled to death by ducks" hehe...  I definitely think it's good to have those kinds of things you know can get done every day.  Why would you NOT do WWE?  It seems like you want to.  Is something holding you back or making you think you shouldn't?  

 

We were looking that the WWE4 dictations, and it is clear it is going to be too much for her.  I also feel like she needs to have some fun with her writing.  Unfortunately, I am not fun.  I am all about schedules and routines and getting things done.  She is a joyful child who needs to feel more joy in school.  I like WWE and WTM for giving me a road map, but I think that dd9 really would rather take the scenic route, iykwim?  

 

 

A mix is good.  I used journal prompts because we could just work on comfort getting thoughts out, without respect to content.  I would have her rewrite a sentence she edited from a daily editing book, and that was copywork (working on punctuation, conventions, etc. without respect to content).  I'd try to get her doing something creative with writing once a week, once every other week.  At one point we used some workbooks LauraCorin suggested to us that walked  you through steps to creating short stories.  Other times we created little writing projects (captain's log, etc.) to go with our history or lit.  Sometimes we did the book projects.  Just shake things up, keep variety, and know what skills you're trying to work on with the mix you're giving her, kwim?  

 

 

I definitely want more of a mix.  I have been going through your list of suggestions, and I think that she would really like Wordsmith Apprentice, and probably Listography and Unjournaling.  (I already have them in my Amazon cart.)  But I guess I just struggle with knowing what exactly my goals ought to be.  With WWE, I know we are addressing punctuation, mechanics and grammar in the context of writing, and I am reluctant to give that up.  

 

 

Have you looked at the WTM 5th gr recs to see where this is going?  Maybe that would help you see the roadmap?  Also SWB has her talk.  You really have to take it all with a grain of salt and say it's ok to do it other ways, with other genres, not pen to paper, blah blah.  But yes, just for a basic framework of how things might progress in the most linear fashion, I referred back to WTM and SWB's talks regularly.  

 

The whole outlining thing for 5th grade kind of sends me into a panic.  It sounds like something that she will find really, really boring, and will take her hours upon hours to do.  

[PeterPan]

Have you looked at Creative Writer?  It might be up her alley.  Half the book will be narrative and the other half will be poetry.  The Creative Writer: Level One: Five Finger Exercises (The Creative Writer)  At the level she's at, she would do book 1.

 

You know, you might look again at Writing Tales 2.  It's creative (check), includes dictation (check), explores single level outlining (check), incorporates grammar and mechanics (check), and explores sentence variety (something you may not realize yet you want but you really do).  It would be everything you want in one program, and she's the PERFECT age for it.  

 

PS.  The outlining in 5th is no big deal.  Just use sources that are actually interesting and use visual methods.

[PeterPan]

Btw, does she have an ipad or access to a computer with dictation?  Macs now have a dictation software thing you can download.  My dh is using it for grad work and really likes it.  There are also apps like Toontastic.

 

You know, come to think of it, you could totally blow this out of the water.  Have her make PICTURE outlines for the keyword outlines in WT2.  Then, pull those pictures into Keynote/Power Point and record her retelling to go with them.  So she's getting the idea of writing to an outline, but she's not having to type.  She's still composing.  She can dictate to you her story as paragraphs and then you print it for her to read from for the PowerPoint.  Then she hits play and has an animated version of her telling.  

 

Shake things up a bit like that.  :)

[Tracy]

Have you looked at Creative Writer?  It might be up her alley.  Half the book will be narrative and the other half will be poetry.  The Creative Writer: Level One: Five Finger Exercises (The Creative Writer)  At the level she's at, she would do book 1.

 

You know, you might look again at Writing Tales 2.  It's creative (check), includes dictation (check), explores single level outlining (check), incorporates grammar and mechanics (check), and explores sentence variety (something you may not realize yet you want but you really do).  It would be everything you want in one program, and she's the PERFECT age for it.  

 

PS.  The outlining in 5th is no big deal.  Just use sources that are actually interesting and use visual methods.

 

Both look good to me.  I am a little leery of Writing Tales, because it looks so much like worksheets, and dd is fairly worksheet phobic.  But I do like the structure.  

 

Btw, does she have an ipad or access to a computer with dictation?  Macs now have a dictation software thing you can download.  My dh is using it for grad work and really likes it.  There are also apps like Toontastic.

 

You know, come to think of it, you could totally blow this out of the water.  Have her make PICTURE outlines for the keyword outlines in WT2.  Then, pull those pictures into Keynote/Power Point and record her retelling to go with them.  So she's getting the idea of writing to an outline, but she's not having to type.  She's still composing.  She can dictate to you her story as paragraphs and then you print it for her to read from for the PowerPoint.  Then she hits play and has an animated version of her telling.  

 

Shake things up a bit like that.   :)

 

Dh has an iPad for work.  The rest of us don't use it very much.  I am not so technically savvy.  This linear mom has a really hard time teaching a child to outline in pictures.  I guess I am going to have to get over that, but it is like learning a foreign language.  I looked at the Inspiration software you mentioned and am feeling really  :huh: about it.

[PeterPan]

Both look good to me.  I am a little leery of Writing Tales, because it looks so much like worksheets, and dd is fairly worksheet phobic.  But I do like the structure.  

 

 

Dh has an iPad for work.  The rest of us don't use it very much.  I am not so technically savvy.  This linear mom has a really hard time teaching a child to outline in pictures.  I guess I am going to have to get over that, but it is like learning a foreign language.  I looked at the Inspiration software you mentioned and am feeling really  :huh: about it.

Well it sounds like you're at least seeing yourself and the contrasts, which is a good place to start.  :)

 

On Inspiration, you might just play around with it.  There's a toggle switch, and you can literally toggle back and forth between the graphic mode and outline mode.  It will quickly become obvious to you how it works.  Also, these kids tend to LOVE technology and really get creative when you let them loose with it.  It would be interesting to see what would happen if you let her loose with the ipad.  Set all the purchases to require a password, obviously.  When I got my dd hers, she started finding apps and just got really creative with ways to incorporate it into her life.  She does all kinds of stuff I might not have needed for myself or anticipated.  She uses apps for checklists for all sorts of things.  (working memory, memory issues, compensate with lists)  You can set alarms for reminders.  She has beautiful apps for doodling or making notes.  She draws with friends.  There is Toontastic, which your dd *might* still be young enough to enjoy.

 

I hear you on the anti-worksheets.  That is totally my dd!  How we handled it with WT2 was to use the co-op lessons, since we were doing it in a little class I was teaching.  We'd go through the major stuff together in that 1-ish hour, analyzing the model, editing our previous work, covering the new grammar, playing the games, sometimes outlining.  Then through the week she could just work on the homework stuff herself.  I wasn't really nitpicky about it and it didn't all need to be done, kwim?  The heart of it is the grammar analysis, outlining, and retelling of the stories with creativity.  You can do to retellings (one straight, the 2nd creative) or just go straight to the creative and be done with it.  Use what works for you and leave the rest behind, kwim?  Anything we didn't do of individual pages didn't matter.  It can become what you need, kwim?  

 

When we did WT2, for my dd it was a stretch course.  Something that is fun in general can become work and require real discipline when you have to do it week after week, outlining, using models you aren't necessarily engaged in (though they were all good!), doing it because you're told, kwim?  So for us it was that just right compromise between something that she could get into (creative, blah blah) and something that satisfied my itch to be accomplishing something.  She'll make work she's really proud of by the end of the year, kwim?  We saved our stories and made them into a book with illustrations.  I don't know if this is how your dd is, but mine learns best in context.  Part of the reason WT2 was so brilliant was that it pulled together grammar and writing and put it into a context.  

 

Well whatever.  We made it work, and dd is decidedly NOT worksheety, lol.

[Tracy]

When we did WT2, for my dd it was a stretch course.  Something that is fun in general can become work and require real discipline when you have to do it week after week, outlining, using models you aren't necessarily engaged in (though they were all good!), doing it because you're told, kwim?  So for us it was that just right compromise between something that she could get into (creative, blah blah) and something that satisfied my itch to be accomplishing something.  She'll make work she's really proud of by the end of the year, kwim?  We saved our stories and made them into a book with illustrations.  I don't know if this is how your dd is, but mine learns best in context.  Part of the reason WT2 was so brilliant was that it pulled together grammar and writing and put it into a context.  

 

Dd would definitely like the idea of having a book when she is done.  She talks a lot about becoming an author and has attempted a number of times to write something, but never really finishes.  But recently, she made a Clone Wars book for her brother with pictures of her and her friends in it, and she was so incredibly giddy about it.  "I'm a real author now, Mom!"  So I will definitely consider this, too.

[Tracy]

Someone posted this for me in another thread--an update from SWB about the recommended writing for 4th-5th grade.  She actually recommends skipping WWE4 and says that 5th grade is a little young for WWS.  So I figure I have 2 years to "play with writing."  Thanks to you, OhElizabeth, I have my Amazon cart full.   :D

 

[PeterPan]

Good link!!  I hadn't seen that!  Now what do you take of:  "You just can’t cope with another year of Writing With Ease and will run screaming to the nearest creative writing program for relief if you have to keep on."

 

There's more to the world than expository writing, and even though we don't need to *force* our kids to do creative work, we also don't have to SHUN it or make it seem like we're copping out and avoiding what good students do.  ;)

 

Well good, maybe people will lay off the whole Sneeches thing and my kid is better than your kid and all that mess over what stupid writing level of a curriculum people are doing.  It has been totally pathetic.  I'm glad she's coming out and saying it.  She's not G*d.  The materials were not tested enough to make absolute statements on, and she has not personally taught large numbers of students in elementary for any of those grades.  It's good people are letting this develop and evolve.  It was not Holy Writ.

 

Maybe I can go find that other thread.  I wasn't aware CAP had writing/rhetoric books, so I'd like to figure out what those are.  I've been looking at some of the things she lists in those other columns.  Even though we'll be doing WWS3 next year, we have room to pursue some other things as well.  I have a rhetoric text someone else had mentioned, and it's sort of oddly not appropriate, like too obvious and too intense/mature at the same time.  But then I'm not of the early is better approach.  I think the right time, when their brain is ready to think that way, gets you better results.  I'm just saying don't assume her chart is written in stone either, because some of the goals she has in those other things are goals I'm looking at for next year, even though we'll also be doing WWS3.  It doesn't have to be so linear.  :D

[Tracy]

This has actually got me rethinking whether to start WWE1 with my 6yo in the fall.  He does not appear to have the learning challenges that his sister has, but language is not as intuitive to him.  He would do better with the copywork than dd did, but I think he might struggle with the narrations.  

 

I feel so bad for pushing my oldest based on the recommendations "out there."  I don't want to do that the next one.  OTOH, he is a "get it done" kind of kid, so we could do the same stuff she did in half the time.  

[Heathermomster]

Have you seen Language Lessons Through Literature by Kathy Jo DeVore?  I've been considering this for my DD when she hits 2nd grade, LORD willing and if no LDs arise.  She's currently in OT for handwriting.

 

The author has a Yahoo Group called Barefoot Ragamuffins that might interest you.  I actually wonder if the your DD would benefit from this program as well. The levels for upper logic stage aren't written yet.

[PeterPan]

This has actually got me rethinking whether to start WWE1 with my 6yo in the fall.  He does not appear to have the learning challenges that his sister has, but language is not as intuitive to him.  He would do better with the copywork than dd did, but I think he might struggle with the narrations.  

 

I feel so bad for pushing my oldest based on the recommendations "out there."  I don't want to do that the next one.  OTOH, he is a "get it done" kind of kid, so we could do the same stuff she did in half the time.  

You know, I'm a bad one to ask on this, lol.  My dd, at 6, was able to do full sentence dictation.  My ds is 5.5 now, and that's so far from reality it's hard to imagine I'd ever seen it happen before, kwim?  

 

I think it's really good to go into a very quiet place in your soul, by yourself, locking out the voices of the boards, and just listen to the still small voice telling you what fits your dc.  I think everything gets done eventually and that rushing hurts kids.  I think that kids are not nearly as linear as SWB's progressions make them sound.  For instance, I'm laughing as I look over her list of recs for high school, because those are not AT ALL what we'd use.  She has modified and modified.  You don't need D'Angelo if you did something like WT2 in the early years.  Seriously, just do WT2 and you'll wonder whether you need it.  I haven't had a copy in-hand (it's $50!!!!!), but from what I can tell of online samples, we don't need it.  That Schaum research paper guide, same deal, don't need.  We did a NHD project with an annotated bib, etc. etc. WWS has you do a research project.  The only guide I'd bother with at this point is Turabian's.  The Schaum one isn't necessary and isn't on-level for us.  That They Say I Say book is weird.  I got it from the library, and I remember not liking it.  Maybe I'll change my tune at some point, lol.  I have Kane, and yes that we'll probably use at some point.  

 

I'm just saying don't EVER look at these linear lists and start freaking out that your kid is somehow BEHIND.  You give a 2E/quirky kid ONE PROJECT, one really engaging project where he actually sits down and wants to do it and does it, and he's going to JUMP beyond your imagination.  

 

So don't get freaky about this.  Do what they're ready for, when they're ready for it, and do it ALL THE WAY.  Linear, spaced out, Saxon-style incremental, freaked out writing instruction is not necessary.  Yes the skills build, but they don't necessarily build LINEARLY.  They can go in spurts, jumps.  You can do her linear steps but with creative writing.  All you need is to keep them doing something that sort of looks like it sort of resembles some step forward in writing skill.  Then give them a good project they can fully engage with and let them leap in and learn.  My dd can do the things SWB has for 10th grade (writing multiple persuasive papers) and that's been my thinking now for the last bit, that that's what we were building up to, and it's because she's READY, not because I'm some genius of writing instruction.

 

What is your 6 yo ds READY to do?  You know that even barring language issues and SN a boy is typically behind a girl at least 6 months...  So look at what your dd was doing sometime around 5 and see if that fits.  Or ditch that and think of crazy boy-centered ideas. (shaped books with short sentences of history narration or lists of types of weapons, etc.) Have you seen the little booklet type writing Heather has been linking people too?  Some of those booklets are too much for 6, but it's the idea, kwim?  Why are people bothering with WWE anyway??  You have WTM.  1st grade in WTM said short captions under pictures they draw.  Short copy work.  Budding dictation.  That's right where you want to be, or less if you consider him a grade lower. If he's a grade lower (K5) then he writes single words.  

 

6 is a really good age for you to take his dictation and type or write little booklets.  He might be ready for something like the Anti-Coloring books.  Just short amounts on things that interest him if he seems ready to write that amount.  That's all you need to do.  The main thing is to put language IN.  You can control what goes in.  You can't control when it's ready to come OUT, kwim?  

 

This is a total aside, because I've been sorta facing those demons myself, like what in the world am I seeing in my child, what is he, why is he 5 and not doing certain things and doing others, etc.  I've decided, until I know otherwise, to embrace the pleasure of extended early education.  The glory on the boards seems to be racing to the end.  It's very hard to dig in and enjoy the BEGINNING, the FOUNDATION.  So that's where I am.  We're just going to dig in and enjoy exactly where we are and not pretend it needs to be anything else.

 

Maybe that's some consolation to you, or maybe it doesn't even fit.  

[Tracy]

What is your 6 yo ds READY to do?  You know that even barring language issues and SN a boy is typically behind a girl at least 6 months...  So look at what your dd was doing sometime around 5 and see if that fits.  Or ditch that and think of crazy boy-centered ideas. (shaped books with short sentences of history narration or lists of types of weapons, etc.) Have you seen the little booklet type writing Heather has been linking people too?  Some of those booklets are too much for 6, but it's the idea, kwim?  Why are people bothering with WWE anyway??  You have WTM.  1st grade in WTM said short captions under pictures they draw.  Short copy work.  Budding dictation.  That's right where you want to be, or less if you consider him a grade lower. If he's a grade lower (K5) then he writes single words.  

 

6 is a really good age for you to take his dictation and type or write little booklets.  He might be ready for something like the Anti-Coloring books.  Just short amounts on things that interest him if he seems ready to write that amount.  That's all you need to do.  The main thing is to put language IN.  You can control what goes in.  You can't control when it's ready to come OUT, kwim?  

 

This is good stuff, OhElizabeth!  When I read Smart but Scattered for dd, and I completed the tests for Executive Skills, it turned out that while dd9 was 2yrs behind, ds6 was 2yrs ahead.  He is a smart kid who will do any work I ask him to do, as long as he doesn't have to endure me teaching it to him. :banghead:   He likes math and reads lots of non-fiction--history and science.  But he is a staunch perfectionist who feels like a complete failure if he doesn't know how to do everything on his own (hence the not liking to be taught).  He could absolutely do the copywork in WWE.  Right now, he composes one sentence daily using his SWR spelling words.  

 

I think he could do WWE1 next year, but I think that by the time we got to WWE2 and WWE3, the narrations would get very difficult for him, and he would struggle with dictation, not academically, but emotionally.  I can get copywork anywhere.  He gets sentence composition from SWR.  But I need to figure out how to get in some reading comprehension.  Maybe just narrations of his history and science books.  But he is going to get really upset if I ask him anything he doesn't remember.  Maybe that is what we need to work on more than reading comprehension.   :tongue_smilie: 

 

Thanks for helping me think through these things.  

[Tracy]

Oh, and I do have a couple of "Making Books with Children" Books, so I will get those out and see what we can do with them.

[texasmama]

FWIW, my gifted kid struggled mightily with the dictations in WWE2 and 3.  Had to break them up and repeat them so much that his younger sister could repeat them before he could.   We would be in the living room, and he would be asking me to repeat it for the forty-eleventh time, all the while she was repeating it verbatim at the age of four or five.  Hasn't held him back a bit, though.  That is when I switched him to Writing Tales.  :)  He did both levels. 

 

My kid who struggles did WT1 in 4th grade and then pretty much took 5th grade off of grammar and writing because SWB ditched her upper level grammar program just before it came out (and I was completely lost and had no back up plan), and I couldn't figure out what to do with writing.  (Can't remember why I didn't do WT2 with him.)  Also, I went to work full time that year so it was a bad year all the way around.  He is doing WWS1 half pace (first half in 6th grade and second half in 7th grade this year).  It is going very well.  He will start WWS2 next year.  The incremental steps mostly work for how his brain works.  He has absolutely no interest in creative writing.  I don't think the year off hurt him one little bit.

 

I guess I am kind of echoing what OhE says in that our progress and plan and implementation has not been linear or even very thorough, but it has worked.  Each kid has been a bit different so each kid's plan has been a bit different.  I feel like I have a good plan for little dd, though.  :)

[PeterPan]

You can use the sentences in SWR for dictation.  I did and highly recommend it.  Just start back over at A1.  It gives you overlap, a fresh way to see the words, and is crazy good.

 

Have you seen the McCall Crabbs books Sanseri recommends?  I have them.  You can buy them individually or all in one volume.  Mine are individually.  I made up little response forms so all she had to do was circle the correct letter for each one.  Made it snappy fast to implement, and done that way he could probably even do it independently.

 

Have you seen the How to Report on Books workbooks?  I think they're Evan Moor.  He'd be ready for them, and they're short, to the point, and yet use some thought.  

 

I'm not sure developmental stuff is always steady.  Like I wouldn't assume a score when he's 5 carries over to how he is when he's 10.  (I should go find that survey btw!)  I know when my dd was 5/6, we did some visual perception books that she seemed to FLY through.  Then, when she was 10/11 and we were doing our VT exam the doc found she had the visual memory of a 2 yo and said she had probably been low for years.  So that's wild, because that means this child who at 5 was flying through stuff (but admittedly odd) HAD the problems.  It's just like her strengths were masking her weaknesses and allowing her to copout the system.  You get them further down the road, and they can't cover anymore.  So just beware and watch it.  But he does sound super bright.   :)

[PeterPan]

Wow, memory lane here...  When dd was that age we did retellings of the Milo Otis (is that right?) Aesop's Fables book that SL uses.  The fables are short.  Also IEW has some really cute structured narration/retelling books for that age on simple themes.  Anyways, it's something he might be able to do relatively independently with some guidance or set-up on your part.  He might enjoy trying to peck them out or dictating his stories with dictation software and then illustrating.

[Tracy]

Have you seen the McCall Crabbs books Sanseri recommends?  I have them.  You can buy them individually or all in one volume.  Mine are individually.  I made up little response forms so all she had to do was circle the correct letter for each one.  Made it snappy fast to implement, and done that way he could probably even do it independently.

 

 

Aren't the McCall books for emerging readers?  I have always dismissed them because both of my kids were very early readers. 

 

 

Have you seen the How to Report on Books workbooks?  I think they're Evan Moor.  He'd be ready for them, and they're short, to the point, and yet use some thought.  

 

 

Oooh, that sounds good!  I will look for them.  

[PeterPan]

Nope, there are the McCall-Crabbs and McCall Harby (ok, my brain is slurry here, look them up yourself), and they go through I don't remember, at least 9th grade reading level.  They go pretty high.  For reading comprehension where you just want a little work and don't have serious SN comprehension issues, they're great.  My dd was a very strong reader, and they were just enough to make her think without boring her or taking too much time.  If you need more, bump 2+ grades in the BJU reading and see what happens.  Or someone (Fair Prospects?) linked a workbook a while back that was good.  It was the kind of stuff in the BJU reading.  We did bits of the BJU reading, but with dd I could never stomach doing all of it.  For ds, the BJU will be more on my radar, simply because it does a good job of digging in on things.  Some kids need that and some kids get it naturally, kwim?  And some kids need MORE than that.  So you just want materials that target the amount/depth of what you need.

[Jennifer-72]

OP - for your little guy have you looked at the book Show Me A Story? It is a wonderful craft project book to work on story telling and writing. Lots of great ideas that you can use for his comprehension as well. We used her traveling puppet theatre idea for ds to retell stories he had read and also for things I had read aloud to him.