s/o--AngelaNYC and dyslexia (pulling to new thread)

[PeterPan]

Wow,  You're the first person to describe my son (12 y/o) to a tee.  He seems to have very good silent reading comprehension, but stumbles incessantly while reading aloud (losing his place, skipping the small words, saying a wrong word that has similar letters, e.g. "carpet" for "crept", guessing other words).  The neurologist report (from a 1/2 day long evaluation from the Einstein College of Medicine's neurology department) showed "severely impaired" in most visual things like decoding and translating sound to the visual symbol) and "high average" with auditory things (phonological awareness, ability to synthesize language sounds, and auditory analysis).  He also was shown to have "slow processing speed", but I'm not sure how that presents itself apart from reading aloud (he types very fast with minimal spelling issues - he moderates a large Minecraft server, has a popular YouTube channel, and does a lot of internet research on topics of interest, but he's a very reluctant writer in all other areas).  He's good at those paragraph editing workbooks - finding all the incorrect grammar and uncapitalized and misspelled words - but not always re-spelling them correctly).  His memorization skills are fine (he was even in a teen drama group last year having to do cold readings :ohmy:  , memorize lines, and perform).  Does this sound like dyslexia?  Maybe just a general visual or information processing disorder?  His neuro report included a list of accommodations (like extended time on tests, giving him step-by-step instructions, more repetition of material, and not presenting too much information too quickly), so I know something is there - I just want a more specific label for it, I guess, so I can do more to help him.  Does something like Barton sound like it would be beneficial for us as well?  Any advice from any and everyone would be great.

 

And I don't mean to hijack this thread, so pm'ing me about this would be fine.  

 

[PeterPan]

Have you checked for developmental vision issues with a COVD optometrist?  Vision would be the first place I'd look based on what you've written (vision issues are usually fixable or at least amenable to significant improvement with work).  You can usually do a regular checkup and then get screened for the developmental vision issues to see whether a full developmental vision eval is warranted.  I would want to establish whether the decoding was due to a vision input issue or something else like dyslexia, and ruling out vision issues first would be a significant step in that direction, before pulling out a reading remediation program.  Did the neuropsych not say more about such paths?

 

Other than that, you might not get a label *if* he's not dyslexic.  What you have written sounds a little like my ds10, who has no particular label and is definitely not dyslexic (ok, it actually sounds a bit like both of my ds10s and my dd12, to some extent).  The difference might be that my ds10 does not have decoding issues.  My ds10 also has no phonemic issues, way way above grade level in math, at or above grade level in reading comprehension, slow processing speed (dramatically low coding subtest score), high working memory, handwriting issues.  (In my ds10's case, the SLP eval only showed a problem with auditory reasoning, which apparently has to do with making inferences - a bit of a language processing glitch.)  My ds10 has had the full developmental vision eval with the COVD in the past with no issues showing up.  More recently, his convergence has deteriorated due to excessive computer time, so he's wearing previously-prescribed reading glasses while on the computer, and getting re-checked next week to see whether he'll actually need vision therapy.  Meanwhile, last night his twin brother confessed that the words on the page have been getting harder to "focus on"  :glare:; I'm betting he has the same issue as his brother so he's going in to the optometrist next week too.  (I have succeeded in getting them away from Minecraft only to spend lots of time with Scratch though I think it's a step in the right direction LOL.)

 

By the way, in spite of my ds10 being not dyslexic according to all the professionals who have seen him (over the years, that's at least 3 psych evals, 8 years of speech therapy, a full language eval, and a full vision eval), the COVD recommended the Eides' book, The Dyslexic Advantage, to me, as she said he is a "dyslexic processor," which just means he has very significant visual-spatial strengths, as we already knew.  You might take a look at that book and Silverman's Upside-Down Brilliance if you think the VSL stuff might apply to your ds.  The accommodation you have listed about no timed tests is typical for a slow processor and a VSL.

[PeterPan]

I'll ditto Wapiti that when everything you're describing is vision-related, it's a pretty good sign that it's time to hit the eye doc.  Developmental optometrist through COVD, checking reviews, anything you can find, to see if he/she is good.  

 

Dyslexia is no longer in the DSM, so that's thing one.  Did your neurologist do a formal write-up?  Check the DSM codes he used, get them, look them up.  You're wanting to know what is label is, and the DSM codes have your answer.  

 

Two, dyslexia and adhd used to be lumped together as minimal brain dysfunction.  Now dyslexia is gone, reading disorder remains (which you can google for the DSM standards for), and adhd has become the catch-all for what they do with kids who don't get the reading disorder label.  Oh well.  My kid has low processing speed too and had a bunch of quirks.  Like wapiti, we ended up doing VT (vision therapy).  Our place told us we had going on pretty much what you're seeing, that the vision was off so the auditory processing kicks in to carry the weight.  IRONICALLY, you can have kids using their auditory processing for most of the work who are, by brain design, actually destined to be VSL.  Until you get the vision fixed, you don't see that and don't get the strengths to come out.  

 

For us, VT was the first step in getting her school stuff to unlock. (Just for your trivia, metronome was the 2nd, and switching to more technological accommodations like an iPad and almost all typing a close 3rd.) The better question then is *why* the kid has the vision problems, and that's when we started tracking down the tone issues (found through OT evals), etc.  That's all to say it's a process.

 

The DSM sucks, is revised every so often, and isn't omniscient.  I encourage you to focus on the FACTS (processing speed, what the issues are, etc.), get therapies and interventions to work on things that are weak that can be improved (working memory, visual processing, EF, sensory, etc.), and be ruthless making changes that fit your child.  We use the labels to open doors to accommodations, etc.  They don't define who she is.  In your case, probably the labels are in the paperwork from the neurologist, hidden as diagnostic codes, so dig through and see what you can find.

[OneStepAtATime]

I second everything OhE says (and Lecka on the other post and Wapiti).  There are many things that could be causing what you are seeing.  

 

Get a good vision screening with a qualified professional.  After you have a thorough eval for vision issues, if you find out there ARE vision issues (and these frequently do NOT show up in a standard eye exam), and you start doing Vision Therapy, then you would be in a better position to determine if you also need a teacher intense, phonics based program like Barton.  Barton does address things like skipping the small words, mis-decoding words, guessing on words, etc., but if there is a vision issue, you may see some progress, but not nearly as much as if you actually deal with the vision issue directly.  Some kids have a need for both so down the line if you think something like Barton is still needed, great, but don't waste time on a program that might or might not work until you have some better answers for what else may be causing the difficulties.  Check the COVD site to see if there is an eye doctor from that list in your area.  Several parents on here have addressed the vision issue and found that things like what you are seeing lessened considerably without something like Barton ever being needed.

 

I wish we had someone off the COVD site near us, but we don't.  Closest is about 4 hours away.  We don't even have a good Developmental Optometrist that ISN'T on the list, at least none that I have been able to locate so far.  We are going to have to travel further afield, which may make any VT recommendations challenging, but I really believe, after all the stories here, it would be worth it.  

 

To clarify, Barton has helped both kids tremendously and I am grateful.  In fact, my daughter went from reading at about a 2nd grade level with tremendous difficulty with decoding and fluency to finally reading with only limited decoding and fluency issues at a 7th grade level within months.  DS is not making that kind of progress.  However, I strongly suspect that my DS has unusual vision issues that DD just doesn't appear to have.  

 

Let me give a bit more detail so you can see what I mean.  DD (13) takes longer to understand and internalize the Barton reading and spelling rules than DS (9), and needs more review, but once those rules are internalized she reads much more fluently and her decoding is much more solid than DS, even though they are at the same point in the program.  

 

DS immediately grasps and internalizes rules and can apply them verbally without any issue.  His practice pages are perfect.   So many of the things that confused him before have smoothed out. Thanks to Barton, he can spell with ease and read real and non-sense words without any problems when they are in isolation.  When he is reading sentences and passages, however, he still sometimes mis-decodes or guesses or skips words.  We were playing one of the card games we have for Barton today and he was doing really well.  He was remembering the rules (we had taken a bit of a break over the holidays so today was review), he was correctly decoding the words on the cards and verbalizing the rules that applied to that card, he was having fun with the game, and he beat me twice.  Then we pulled out a Barton reader...It was not easy for him.  He mis-decoded, he skipped a few words, etc.  Finally, he asked if we could stop for a bit because his head was hurting and the words were starting to jump.  Does that sound like a vision issue to anyone else?  Having never gotten a thorough eye exam through a DO for either child, I don't know for sure but it sounds like it to me.  He has never expressed that sentiment in words before, but I have suspected for a while that vision is also an issue for other reasons.  After today, I am more convinced than ever.  Now we need someone to determine if this is at least one of the other issues besides dyslexia and hopefully we will do this with someone that has a genuine clue.

 

Bottom line, before you go curriculum and remediation program hopping, get an eye exam with a Developmental Optometrist.  Best wishes.

[AngelaNYC]

Wapiti:   I just took ds for new glasses and contact lenses and asked the optometrist for advice on his issues (btw, she found nothing wrong with his vision or convergence or anything else).   She told me to call the SUNY College of Optometry's University Eye Center.  I left them a message inquiring about testing for learning disabilities and about vision therapy.  I haven't receive a call back yet, but here is their web page.  Is this the right place to go?  I noticed that one of the doctors on the COVD site is here.   http://www.sunyopt.edu/uec/eyecare_for_children/learning_disabilities .  I hope I can do this for only the $300 since I already had him tested by a neurologist - which was actually free since ds agreed to be part of their research :)

 

Other info:

Ds is also very good at math and anything to do with computers

His handwriting sucks unless he's specifically told to "make it neat", then it's beautiful.  He absolutely HATES hand writing anything, though.

The neuro report mentioned that his visual-spatial skills are in the "low average" range.  Those books you mentioned probably wouldn't help that much, would they?

 

OhElizabeth:   I really hope this vision place will be the answer.    The neurologist didn't put in any DSM codes.  What's with that?   It's so interesting about the auditory processing kicking in to compensate.  Speaking of compensation, I do read most of his texts and other books to him.  I'm slowly getting him to read more of it on his own and I'm attempting to have him do some composition writing (right now it's just writing one good sentence from one news topic of the day).  He's pretty good with taking handwritten notes as I read aloud, though.  I'm hoping to have him learn how to transfer that into a typed essay soon.    I have tailored a curriculum to fit his needs since I suspected dyslexia 4 years ago.  I do what works and then change it when it stops working.  I constantly second guess myself.  Having a definite diagnosis and a real "label" will help so much - even if it's not from the DSM, lol. I won't let it define who he is.  I know he's smart and determined and has a pretty clear idea of what he wants to do in the future.   He's thinking about attending public high school.  Lord help me, lol.  

 

OneStepAtATime:   Going for that vision screening as soon as I can.   I'm just afraid that vision therapy will be too expensive and I can't shake the feeling that I'd be paying for something I could possibly do at home.  Please convince me there's more to it.  I want to believe in it so badly.   I don't think ds needs anything phonics-based, so Barton may not be a good fit.  He is definitely a whole-word reader (as a first method of attack) but will sound words out with no problem.  We've done so much phonics over the years.  But if the VT doesn't pan out, I'll look at Barton again.  It seems a bunch of COVD docs are in my area, many from the school I linked above.  My regular optometrist said that because it's a college, it wouldn't cost as much as other types of practices.  An initial consult (which, in fact, could be all he needs for an accurate assessment, according to the website) costs $300, which is the best price I've seen.    

 

A main thing on ds's neuro report is that he cannot take in too much info at once.  It's hard for him to process it immediately but he can take it in and condense it to be recalled later.    Any advice on that?

 

[PeterPan]

Just quickly, how did he end up in this neurologist study?  Is there something going on or OT issues or something unusual?  Why not just a regular psych eval?  Has he had an OT eval?

 

I'd pick the developmental optometrist based on feedback from people, not just a referral.  Sometimes referrals are the buddy system.

 

We aren't saying he has developmental vision problems, but it's also true a regular optometrist wouldn't necessarily catch them if he did.  My dd went through 2 regular optometrists before they were caught, and my optom. never caught mine.  And yes, of course there's a bunch you can do at home to help with developmental vision.  It's called homework.  ;)  Seriously, there is a ton, but you don't know enough now to do it.  First you have to know what's actually going on.

 

I go back to the neurologist thing.  That's a little unusual to end up in a study.  What is really going on?  

[AngelaNYC]

Just quickly, how did he end up in this neurologist study?  Is there something going on or OT issues or something unusual?  Why not just a regular psych eval?  Has he had an OT eval?

 

I'd pick the developmental optometrist based on feedback from people, not just a referral.  Sometimes referrals are the buddy system.

 

We aren't saying he has developmental vision problems, but it's also true a regular optometrist wouldn't necessarily catch them if he did.  My dd went through 2 regular optometrists before they were caught, and my optom. never caught mine.  And yes, of course there's a bunch you can do at home to help with developmental vision.  It's called homework.   ;)  Seriously, there is a ton, but you don't know enough now to do it.  First you have to know what's actually going on.

 

I go back to the neurologist thing.  That's a little unusual to end up in a study.  What is really going on?  

 

Oh, sorry.  It was advertised (on a few dyslexia forums) that the college was doing a research study on dyslexic children between the ages of 8 & 12.  They would do testing and give an evaluation with a report and a consultation and if the child "qualified", then he partook in their research study at a subsequent visit.  Ds spend about 4-5 hours doing a bunch of tests:

• Behavior Assessment System for Children, Second Edition (BASC-2)
• Clinical Evaluation of Language Fundamentals, Fourth Edition (CELF-4)(Select Subtests)
• Conners' Continuous Performance Test II (CPT-II)
• Peabody Picture Vocabulary Test, Fourth Edition (PPVT-4)
• The Beery VMI Developmental Test of Motor Coordination, Sixth Edition
• The Beery VMI Developmental Test of Visual Perception, Sixth Edition
• Wechsler Abbreviated Scale of Intelligence - Second Edition (WASI-II)
• Woodcock Johnson Tests of Achievement - Third Edition (WCJ-III)(Select Subtests)
• Woodcock Johnson Tests of Cognitive Abilities - Third Edition (WCJ-III)(Select Subtests)

Then came back the next week and did an EEG and visual tracking exercises and a few other things.  For this research part of it, he is only a number and not evaluated.  They bought us each a nice lunch both days and ds left there with over $150.  It took almost a month for the report (he did parts of the research study before they knew the results and if he ended up not qualifying then they would disregard his input).  It gave me some good info - much of which I was unaware.  The report is broken into the following sections:  

• Tests Administered
• Relevant Background History
• Behavioral Observations
• Assessment Results (Intellectual Abilities, Language Functioning, Memory and Learning, Attention Functioning, Visual Spatial Integration/Motor Functioning, Acade,ic Functioning, Psychological/Emotional Functioning)
• Diagnostic Formulation
• Recommendations
• Neurological Test Summary (Scores and Percentiles)

Ds hasn't had any other assessments, ever.  I jumped on this because I was so relieved that I could finally get him tested and evaluated without spending a couple of thousand dollars.  That's all it was.  Here's where I found the info:  http://blog.dyslexia.com/dyslexia-study-seeks-participants/#.UtRhJdJDvDU , which led me here:  http://www.einstein.yu.edu/cogneurolab/page.aspx?ID=35975&lid=26268

[Heathermomster]

Welcome Angela!

 

Based upon what you have described in this thread and after getting the VT squared away, I would suggest you hire an O-G certified reading specialist to work with your DS a minimum of two hours per week.  Maybe call your nearest dyslexia school and discover whether they keep a tutor listing.

 

Barton provides a free online assessment test.  You could call Susan Barton as well.  By all accounts, she's very friendly and generous with her time.  Have you administered the Barton test to your DS?

 

Try to find a local area dyslexia support group.  The staff at my local dyslexia school are very generous with their time and host a monthly parent support meeting that is free to the public.

 

You may be able to get a dyslexia assessment free or at a reduced cost through a Scottish Rite Learning Center.  I Googled the term for you and found two SRLCs in NJ.  Perhaps call Scottish Rite and discover what is available as far as dyslexia testing and teaching materials.  Some SRLCs offer tutoring and will loan out O-G materials to teach your child at home.  With a diagnosis in hand, you may sign up for Learningally and start downloading audio books.  I believe the library offers a book service as well.  You will need the diagnosed reading disorder paperwork to receive services.

 

Handwriting...well..If you haven't done so already, make typing and priority and get your son keyboarding.  Typing has made life so much better for my DS.

 

Paragraphs and writing...Use a program that teaches writing slowly, explicitly, and systematically.  For 7th grade, my DS used an IEW thematic book level A.  He is currently taking a thematic level B class and doing well.  Other moms use different resources with success.  You may want to search that later.  Anyhoo..

 

Good luck, h

 

 

[PeterPan]

Ds hasn't had any other assessments, ever.  I jumped on this because I was so relieved that I could finally get him tested and evaluated without spending a couple of thousand dollars.  That's all it was.  Here's where I found the info:  http://blog.dyslexia.com/dyslexia-study-seeks-participants/#.UtRhJdJDvDU , which led me here:  http://www.einstein.yu.edu/cogneurolab/page.aspx?ID=35975&lid=26268

That sounds like it was a fabulous opportunity to get a lot of testing done!  I can see why you did it!  Since it didn't result in actually diagnoses, what you might do is find a neuropsychologist who is good with dyslexia and have them do just a bit of work for you interpreting the scores, running a CTOPP or anything else they want to see, and then making suggestions on accommodations, etc.  That way you'd have the start of that paper trail and more info on how to interpret and apply what you've got.  Find somebody well-liked for giving helpful feedback, if you decide to do that.

 

So did he qualify to go to the 2nd round, or did he not make the cut-off?

[geodob]

Angela, you wrote: 'neurology department) showed "severely impaired" in most visual things like decoding and translating sound to the visual symbol) '.

Where this was most likely identified in the Rapid Naming test?

Though 'sound to visual' and visual to sound, doesn't involve decoding and translating from one to the other?

Rather, neural connections develop between the visual cortex and the auditory cortex.

So that an immediate connection between an image and sound of the word for it, is formed.

But the speed of the connection between the auditory and visual cortex, goes through a development process.

Which develops as a response to usage and exercising the connection.

Though this development can be disrupted, so that only a sluggish connection is developed.

Where the Rapid Naming test, will show sluggish naming.

 

While the Rapid Naming uses pictures, slowness with this, equally effects naming (sounding out) written words.

 

But most importantly, recently published research has shown that it can be improved, by directly exercising it.

Where the main tool used, are magazines with lots of photos.

Where things in the photos are pointed at, and then named.

The research has shown that regularly practicing this, will increase the speed of naming.

Where it has also shown this increase in the speed of naming pictures, carries over to sounding out written words.

 

Though it need to be practiced in a graduated process, which begins with categories.

As the brain doesn't just randomly store sounds and images?

Rather it forms categories, and then layers of sub-categories as a filing system. 

So for example, under the animal category, is a dog category, where different breeds of dogs are stored, as visual images and names.

 

So that with exercises to increase Rapid Naming? It is best to begin with developing a rapid connection to the broader categories, and then progress through the layers of sub-categories.

 

Where the 'slow processing' could be rather viewed as 'slow finding'?

[AngelaNYC]

Welcome Angela!

 

Based upon what you have described in this thread and after getting the VT squared away, I would suggest you hire an O-G certified reading specialist to work with your DS a minimum of two hours per week.  Maybe call your nearest dyslexia school and discover whether they keep a tutor listing.

 

Barton provides a free online assessment test.  You could call Susan Barton as well.  By all accounts, she's very friendly and generous with her time.  Have you administered the Barton test to your DS?

 

Try to find a local area dyslexia support group.  The staff at my local dyslexia school are very generous with their time and host a monthly parent support meeting that is free to the public.

 

You may be able to get a dyslexia assessment free or at a reduced cost through a Scottish Rite Learning Center.  I Googled the term for you and found two SRLCs in NJ.  Perhaps call Scottish Rite and discover what is available as far as dyslexia testing and teaching materials.  Some SRLCs offer tutoring and will loan out O-G materials to teach your child at home.  With a diagnosis in hand, you may sign up for Learningally and start downloading audio books.  I believe the library offers a book service as well.  You will need the diagnosed reading disorder paperwork to receive services.

 

Handwriting...well..If you haven't done so already, make typing and priority and get your son keyboarding.  Typing has made life so much better for my DS.

 

Paragraphs and writing...Use a program that teaches writing slowly, explicitly, and systematically.  For 7th grade, my DS used an IEW thematic book level A.  He is currently taking a thematic level B class and doing well.  Other moms use different resources with success.  You may want to search that later.  Anyhoo..

 

Good luck, h

 

 Thank you so much for all of these suggestions!  I emailed back and forth with Susan Barton when I first suspected dyslexia several years ago.  She was very nice. I've heard of Scottish Rite.  I have to look into that again.  Ds prefers typing over hand-writing and I don't understand how he types so fast when his spelling isn't great.  I think he's mastered the backspace, lol.  We are going over cursive writing again and I do have him hand write some of his schoolwork.  Should I just toss that?  

[AngelaNYC]

That sounds like it was a fabulous opportunity to get a lot of testing done!  I can see why you did it!  Since it didn't result in actually diagnoses, what you might do is find a neuropsychologist who is good with dyslexia and have them do just a bit of work for you interpreting the scores, running a CTOPP or anything else they want to see, and then making suggestions on accommodations, etc.  That way you'd have the start of that paper trail and more info on how to interpret and apply what you've got.  Find somebody well-liked for giving helpful feedback, if you decide to do that.

 

So did he qualify to go to the 2nd round, or did he not make the cut-off?

 

 

He did not qualify for further research.  I believe it was because his phonemic awareness and all auditory aspects were higher than they needed.  I don't know.  Hiring a neurologist to explain his scores and maybe give me a more specific diagnosis is a fantastic idea.  

[Heathermomster]

Thank you so much for all of these suggestions! I emailed back and forth with Susan Barton when I first suspected dyslexia several years ago. She was very nice. I've heard of Scottish Rite. I have to look into that again. Ds prefers typing over hand-writing and I don't understand how he types so fast when his spelling isn't great. I think he's mastered the backspace, lol. We are going over cursive writing again and I do have him hand write some of his schoolwork. Should I just toss that?

He should practice handwriting because he needs a legible cursive signature. Practice but don't make a fuss. Handwriting is one of those hills I prefer not to die on. Do what you feel is best. You know your child.

 

If you haven't done this already, maybe try some different pencil grips and consider a font like Getty-Dubay cursive italics. I prefer italics because it leaves out weird looking loops and flourishes and the manuscript to cursive fonts are almost identical.

[AngelaNYC]

Angela, you wrote: 'neurology department) showed "severely impaired" in most visual things like decoding and translating sound to the visual symbol) '.

Where this was most likely identified in the Rapid Naming test?

Though 'sound to visual' and visual to sound, doesn't involve decoding and translating from one to the other?

Rather, neural connections develop between the visual cortex and the auditory cortex.

So that an immediate connection between an image and sound of the word for it, is formed.

But the speed of the connection between the auditory and visual cortex, goes through a development process.

Which develops as a response to usage and exercising the connection.

Though this development can be disrupted, so that only a sluggish connection is developed.

Where the Rapid Naming test, will show sluggish naming.

 

While the Rapid Naming uses pictures, slowness with this, equally effects naming (sounding out) written words.

 

But most importantly, recently published research has shown that it can be improved, by directly exercising it.

Where the main tool used, are magazines with lots of photos.

Where things in the photos are pointed at, and then named.

The research has shown that regularly practicing this, will increase the speed of naming.

Where it has also shown this increase in the speed of naming pictures, carries over to sounding out written words.

 

Though it need to be practiced in a graduated process, which begins with categories.

As the brain doesn't just randomly store sounds and images?

Rather it forms categories, and then layers of sub-categories as a filing system. 

So for example, under the animal category, is a dog category, where different breeds of dogs are stored, as visual images and names.

 

So that with exercises to increase Rapid Naming? It is best to begin with developing a rapid connection to the broader categories, and then progress through the layers of sub-categories.

 

Where the 'slow processing' could be rather viewed as 'slow finding'?

 

That is really interesting.  I'm going to try it with the magazines and see if I notice an issue with rapid naming.  On his report, under "Speech/Language Functioning", there are 3 tests.  On the PPVT he scored in the 68th percentile.  On the WCJ-III Picture Vocabulary he scored in the 79th percentile.  And on the CELF Rapid Automatic Naming Color-Shape Naming his time was "non-normal" and his errors were "normal".  The report states that his ability to translate sound to the visual symbol is within normal limits.  Auditory analysis is high average and auditory closure is in the average range.  Can you make anything of this?   

[PeterPan]

Angela, you wrote: 'neurology department) showed "severely impaired" in most visual things like decoding and translating sound to the visual symbol) '.

Where this was most likely identified in the Rapid Naming test?

Though 'sound to visual' and visual to sound, doesn't involve decoding and translating from one to the other?

Rather, neural connections develop between the visual cortex and the auditory cortex.

So that an immediate connection between an image and sound of the word for it, is formed.

But the speed of the connection between the auditory and visual cortex, goes through a development process.

Which develops as a response to usage and exercising the connection.

Though this development can be disrupted, so that only a sluggish connection is developed.

Where the Rapid Naming test, will show sluggish naming.

 

While the Rapid Naming uses pictures, slowness with this, equally effects naming (sounding out) written words.

 

But most importantly, recently published research has shown that it can be improved, by directly exercising it.

Where the main tool used, are magazines with lots of photos.

Where things in the photos are pointed at, and then named.

The research has shown that regularly practicing this, will increase the speed of naming.

Where it has also shown this increase in the speed of naming pictures, carries over to sounding out written words.

 

Though it need to be practiced in a graduated process, which begins with categories.

As the brain doesn't just randomly store sounds and images?

Rather it forms categories, and then layers of sub-categories as a filing system. 

So for example, under the animal category, is a dog category, where different breeds of dogs are stored, as visual images and names.

 

So that with exercises to increase Rapid Naming? It is best to begin with developing a rapid connection to the broader categories, and then progress through the layers of sub-categories.

 

Where the 'slow processing' could be rather viewed as 'slow finding'?

:hurray:   Sometimes you blow my mind and make a lot of things connect.  That's all.  :)

[OneStepAtATime]

With cursive, I bought the New American Cursive program with the Start Write software because I can type out anything I need in the font and it prints out the guiding lines, along with the words.  I have him practice writing anything pertaining to what we are learning in other topics and what i print out can show him how to form the letters when he needs that or I can type out the font with just closely spaced dots or wide apart dots, or solid letters, etc.  It makes it more interesting for DS if the words he is practicing writing are related to history or science, but with the pages I print out for him, he isn't struggling to recall exactly how to form the letters, or having to flip through a book to see.  He sees them right in front of him, traces them, copies them over, then practices them.  We then have discussions over the vocabulary he just wrote down, which he enjoys a lot more than the writing.

[PeterPan]

He did not qualify for further research.  I believe it was because his phonemic awareness and all auditory aspects were higher than they needed.  I don't know.  Hiring a neurologist to explain his scores and maybe give me a more specific diagnosis is a fantastic idea.  

See that's what I'm thinking.  He's not dyslexic.  You have almost all the tests you need and could get the last few done with a neuropsychologist and go ahead and get the report written.  You're walking in with tons of info already, so you just need it interpreted. I don't know what the neurologist you used is able to do as far as diagnosing, giving the full write-up and accommodations and whatnot.  That's holding you back though.  You have a bunch of leaves and need to make tea with it.  Get somebody to brew for you.  It's the difference between having numbers and knowing the implications of them and what to do with them.  The $300 you spend to get that done may SAVE you a $300 mistake in curriculum.  

 

On the handwriting, I'll be a real stickler here and say I wouldn't give him a pass on handwriting till you have the eval showing he needs a pass and why.  See here's my problem.  My dd is much better typing than handwriting.  We got her evals, and she did NOT get a dysgraphia label but DOES have an issue with the motor control of writing.  The motor control isn't automatic, so it eats up her working memory, which is why it's not a good method for her.  Fast forward to an online class where the instructor ASSIGNS FOR A GRADE something with a ton of HANDWRITING.  It's a TON of handwriting, has to be hand-written, and when she asks the instructor is not interested in flexing.  What do you do then?  Happened to us this year, could happen to you.  I pulled out the eval paper, examined it, said there's no mention of typing replacing writing, and told her suck up buttercup.  I did that BECAUSE I HAD THE EVAL.  *I* might have chosen to work around it, but the fact is neurologically my dd *can* do it and therefore had to do it.  You really, really have to be cautious about eliminating writing without the evals.  You can get him in a real pickle later.  He gets accommodations if the psych says he gets accommodations, not because he wants them.  College tests, same deal.  ACT/SAT, is he going to fill in bubbles or write the essays or type?  These are all upcoming for our kids.

 

If the dc *doesn't* get the accommodation of typing from the psych, then you have to hit reality that you might have to do more work on handwriting with a 12 yo to get it legible.  I was pretty frustrated through last year (8th), and toward the end of the year dd and I created a font that she could write legibly, mixing together cursive and print, redesigning letters that she couldn't form legibly.  So there is that combo of vision skills (her writing before VT was scary!), maturity, and them buying into it.  In our case it's preferable to type, but the reality is she didn't get that as an accommodation and has to be able to write legibly for what she needs to do, whether it's easy or not.  Finish the evals.

[PeterPan]

With cursive, I bought the New American Cursive program with the Start Write software because I can type out anything I need in the font and it prints out the guiding lines, along with the words.  I have him practice writing anything pertaining to what we are learning in other topics and what i print out can show him how to form the letters when he needs that or I can type out the font with just closely spaced dots or wide apart dots, or solid letters, etc.  It makes it more interesting for DS if the words he is practicing writing are related to history or science, but with the pages I print out for him, he isn't struggling to recall exactly how to form the letters, or having to flip through a book to see.  He sees them right in front of him, traces them, copies them over, then practices them.  We then have discussions over the vocabulary he just wrote down, which he enjoys a lot more than the writing.

Remind me how old the dc is you're doing this with?  I mean, I wouldn't hesitate to do that with an older dc if they would do it, but would it also work for my 5 yo?  I haven't really tackled in my mind how I'm going to teach him writing.  After dd's lack of solidifying the motor control, I obviously need to do something better.  No, I don't really take that as my fault.  We did handwriting and plenty of writing.  Nevertheless, one can always work smarter.  I got a HWT pre level book and he didn't like it.  I should bust it out now and figure out why.

[AngelaNYC]

See that's what I'm thinking.  He's not dyslexic.  You have almost all the tests you need and could get the last few done with a neuropsychologist and go ahead and get the report written.  You're walking in with tons of info already, so you just need it interpreted. I don't know what the neurologist you used is able to do as far as diagnosing, giving the full write-up and accommodations and whatnot.  That's holding you back though.  You have a bunch of leaves and need to make tea with it.  Get somebody to brew for you.  It's the difference between having numbers and knowing the implications of them and what to do with them.  The $300 you spend to get that done may SAVE you a $300 mistake in curriculum.  

 

On the handwriting, I'll be a real stickler here and say I wouldn't give him a pass on handwriting till you have the eval showing he needs a pass and why.  See here's my problem.  My dd is much better typing than handwriting.  We got her evals, and she did NOT get a dysgraphia label but DOES have an issue with the motor control of writing.  The motor control isn't automatic, so it eats up her working memory, which is why it's not a good method for her.  Fast forward to an online class where the instructor ASSIGNS FOR A GRADE something with a ton of HANDWRITING.  It's a TON of handwriting, has to be hand-written, and when she asks the instructor is not interested in flexing.  What do you do then?  Happened to us this year, could happen to you.  I pulled out the eval paper, examined it, said there's no mention of typing replacing writing, and told her suck up buttercup.  I did that BECAUSE I HAD THE EVAL.  *I* might have chosen to work around it, but the fact is neurologically my dd *can* do it and therefore had to do it.  You really, really have to be cautious about eliminating writing without the evals.  You can get him in a real pickle later.  He gets accommodations if the psych says he gets accommodations, not because he wants them.  College tests, same deal.  ACT/SAT, is he going to fill in bubbles or write the essays or type?  These are all upcoming for our kids.

 

If the dc *doesn't* get the accommodation of typing from the psych, then you have to hit reality that you might have to do more work on handwriting with a 12 yo to get it legible.  I was pretty frustrated through last year (8th), and toward the end of the year dd and I created a font that she could write legibly, mixing together cursive and print, redesigning letters that she couldn't form legibly.  So there is that combo of vision skills (her writing before VT was scary!), maturity, and them buying into it.  In our case it's preferable to type, but the reality is she didn't get that as an accommodation and has to be able to write legibly for what she needs to do, whether it's easy or not.  Finish the evals.

 

I wasn't sure about it either until I started researching.  I found that there are different "types" of dyslexia - auditory dyslexia (dysphonemic) and visual dyslexia (dyseidetic).  Ds falls into the latter, less common category - which is why he doesn't fit the standard dyslexia model.  Most of the books and websites I read deal with phonemic issues mainly.  Have any of you heard of this?  Does it seems so?  If what he has is considered "Visual Processing Disorder" then I've read that it's a cause of dyslexia.  I think I gotta stop reading so much.  

 

http://dyslexia.learninginfo.org/dyseidetic.htm

http://www.understanding-learning-disabilities.com/types-of-dyslexia.html

http://ccpsatot.wikispaces.com/Dyslexia+and+Visual+Processing

http://www.epinions.com/kifm-review-115C-10057382-3A022CBD-prod2?sb=1

 

As far as handwriting, his is ok.  He can write in cursive and in print pretty well.  I just wanted to review it since he doesn't really write much at all.  I probably don't need any other handwriting programs.  I wanted to toss the review workbook because I feel he does know enough and it's just tedious busywork for him. 

 

This year I plan on getting him writing more.  He expressed an interest in doing research papers (go figure), so I would like to find a way to ease into that slowly.  Also letter writing and journaling.  I'm hoping by the time he's in 9th grade (whether at home or in school) that his writing ability (composition-wise) will be somewhat up to par.

[wapiti]

I wasn't sure about it either until I started researching.  I found that there are different "types" of dyslexia - auditory dyslexia (dysphonemic) and visual dyslexia (dyseidetic).  Ds falls into the latter, less common category - which is why he doesn't fit the standard dyslexia model.  Most of the books and websites I read deal with phonemic issues mainly.  Have any of you heard of this?  Does it seems so?  If what he has is considered "Visual Processing Disorder" then I've read that it's a cause of dyslexia.  I think I gotta stop reading so much. 

 

No, no, keep reading :).  What professionals term "dyslexia" can be very confusing, especially since it's not used in the DSM and since non-professionals (by that, I mean "reading specialists" and the like who are not psychs) use the term much, much more loosely and broadly.  Mostly, I didn't think psychs included the vision angle anymore, though it may have been included for decades, years ago, not that it really matters...

 

FWIW, many, but not all, COVDs do work on vision processing in vision therapy, after upstream vision issues have been fixed.  Yet, most will note that they do not address dyslexia, unless their therapy services cast a wider net and involve other types of professionals.

[wapiti]

We got her evals, and she did NOT get a dysgraphia label but DOES have an issue with the motor control of writing.  The motor control isn't automatic, so it eats up her working memory, which is why it's not a good method for her.  Fast forward to an online class where the instructor ASSIGNS FOR A GRADE something with a ton of HANDWRITING.  It's a TON of handwriting, has to be hand-written, and when she asks the instructor is not interested in flexing.  What do you do then?  Happened to us this year, could happen to you.  I pulled out the eval paper, examined it, said there's no mention of typing replacing writing, and told her suck up buttercup. 

 

Interesting.  My kids do not have an official dysgraphia diagnosis at this time, but their reports DO include the typing accommodation.  As in something like, "teach typing ASAP and allow typing for all written assignments," from evals when they were in 1st and 3rd grade.  I assume it was based on the low coding subtest scores (for the boys, that was in the single digit percentiles).  We are to come back for re-testing, in part to see where they're at and whether they need such a diagnosis.  We were supposed to take one ds to an OT who has some special method of teaching typing to dysgraphic kids, but it was all unclear about whether we needed an OT eval to give to the psych to support a dysgraphia diagnosis.  When I spoke with that OT over the phone, he had a really weird attitude that turned me off, so I never took ds there.

 

To complicate matters, the ds who was tested most recently (last year), when doing a handwriting sample for the COVD, wrote ridiculously neatly and in plenty of time, but he was copying something rather than writing from his own head.  Looking back, it almost made me wonder if they got his paper mixed up with someone else's, it was that different.

 

At any rate, even the middle school I now plan on them attending (part of their current public charter school) basically requires them to have a device (iPad or laptop).  Same for the boys private high school, which is now starting an ipad program similar to the one that dd has at her middle school.  I originally wasn't keen on the ipad program at dd's school, but it has been great.  She types everything and so does everyone else, so I've never had to even consider accommodations.  Her textbooks are on it (on-line through the Pearson website) so there's less to carry and there is an option to listen to the text.  The only concern I have for the boys then would be the timed test issue.  They type pretty quickly for the most part; now it's the thinking of what to write that tends to be a problem.

 

Ironically, one ds was all concerned just this morning about writing his name in cursive as part of an activity the school is doing (a town, where he would need to write checks or something).

 

Eta, I read recently that there's a chance the new revision of the SAT, that starts spring 2016, may be on the computer, for better or for worse.  While there are some potential downsides, I think it may be very, very helpful for my kids to be able to click on the answer rather than look to a second sheet to bubble by pencil (e.g. they do well on the MAP which is also on the computer).  That alone may reduce a need for them to have an accommodation for dysgraphia.... something to think about and watch....  I wonder about distinguishing the motor aspect of processing speed from the "thinking" part (is there such a thing).

[PeterPan]

nt

[Tokyomarie]

 

Quote edited out & the beginning of my response edited slightly because the poster deleted her comments. The rest of my post stands since I think it is important for people to understand how the word "dyslexia" has been and is used in the DSM.

 

Dyslexia was not a diagnosis in the DSM IV, just as it is not now a diagnosis in the DSM 5. The individual categories of reading disorder, mathematics disorder, and written expression disorder from the DSM IV have been combined into Specific Learning Disorder in DSM 5, which may (possibly) be an improvement in that it recognizes that most students who have LDs have difficulty in more than one area of basic skills. Dyslexia was used as one descriptor in the supporting text of the DSM IV and it remains so in the DSM 5. So no, the mention of dyslexia has not been removed from the DSM 5, it just didn't get elevated to a diagnosis in and of itself.

 

The understanding of the underlying issues in the various diagnostic categories of LDs, autism, and ADHD continues to emerge. As our understanding of neurobiology improves, our ability to better distinguish syndromes will become more nuanced. For now, dyslexia is a fully valid descriptor to use for a student whose reading difficulty resides primarily in decoding at the word level and encoding for spelling- as opposed to a student who can decode words quickly and accurately but has difficulty with comprehension of connected text. A student with decoding & encoding difficulties may well, and often does, have difficulties in other skill areas, too, but it's the word level reading and spelling difficulty that allows us to use the label dyslexia for a particular student.

 

[Heathermomster]

Angela, you wrote: 'neurology department) showed "severely impaired" in most visual things like decoding and translating sound to the visual symbol) '.

Where this was most likely identified in the Rapid Naming test?

Though 'sound to visual' and visual to sound, doesn't involve decoding and translating from one to the other?

Rather, neural connections develop between the visual cortex and the auditory cortex.

So that an immediate connection between an image and sound of the word for it, is formed.

But the speed of the connection between the auditory and visual cortex, goes through a development process.

Which develops as a response to usage and exercising the connection.

Though this development can be disrupted, so that only a sluggish connection is developed.

Where the Rapid Naming test, will show sluggish naming.

 

While the Rapid Naming uses pictures, slowness with this, equally effects naming (sounding out) written words.

 

But most importantly, recently published research has shown that it can be improved, by directly exercising it.

Where the main tool used, are magazines with lots of photos.

Where things in the photos are pointed at, and then named.

The research has shown that regularly practicing this, will increase the speed of naming.

Where it has also shown this increase in the speed of naming pictures, carries over to sounding out written words.

 

Though it need to be practiced in a graduated process, which begins with categories.

As the brain doesn't just randomly store sounds and images?

Rather it forms categories, and then layers of sub-categories as a filing system.

So for example, under the animal category, is a dog category, where different breeds of dogs are stored, as visual images and names.

 

So that with exercises to increase Rapid Naming? It is best to begin with developing a rapid connection to the broader categories, and then progress through the layers of sub-categories.

 

Where the 'slow processing' could be rather viewed as 'slow finding'?

You know, maybe I Spy books would be helpful for practicing this...

[OneStepAtATime]

Remind me how old the dc is you're doing this with?  I mean, I wouldn't hesitate to do that with an older dc if they would do it, but would it also work for my 5 yo?  I haven't really tackled in my mind how I'm going to teach him writing.  After dd's lack of solidifying the motor control, I obviously need to do something better.  No, I don't really take that as my fault.  We did handwriting and plenty of writing.  Nevertheless, one can always work smarter.  I got a HWT pre level book and he didn't like it.  I should bust it out now and figure out why.

Well, DS is 9.  He is the one that struggled a lot more with handwriting in school in 2nd grade.  His writing has always been slow, but it was very legible in kinder and 1st, even quite nice when he focused.  That is why we didn't realize that handwriting was an issue.  Once output requirements and lots of copying from the board ramped up 10 fold in 2nd he couldn't do it.

 

Now that he is home and we are doing the cursive, he LOVES the flow of cursive compared to print, but gets frustrated that it isn't automatic yet.  Being able to type out words in the cursive font we are using that pertain to subjects he has an interest in keeps him practicing so hopefully automaticity will come over time.  I still have him practice printing, too, though, because he has to be explicitly taught how to resize print when copying or writing in small spaces.  I know that a lot of forms will probably be filled out on-line by the time he is an adult, but I am certain there will also be times he HAS to print in small spaces.

 

I do some of this with DD, too, but she already knows cursive since she was taught it in school and she had to do all her spelling tests in cursive.  (getting credit for pretty cursive handwriting was one of the few things she could use to consistently bring up her spelling grade).