help/advice - my wild child! (spd? strong willed?) cross posted from chat

[LMD]

Hi there, this is my first time on this part of the board.  I'm cross posting here at the suggestion of a poster on the chat board, I'd be interested in your thoughts!  

 

 

I'm looking for some Hive wisdom!  This post has been a long time coming... I'm posting willing to hear any/all ideas and opinions of this situation (not JAWM)!  This post may be pretty disjointed, sorry, I'm not sure exactly how to word or order it.  If you need more information or want to clarify something I'm happy to answer questions.

 

I'm talking about my 3rd child, my 2nd son.  He has always been more difficult.  I hate to label him, but...

 

He's 3.5 years old now.  He has always been very boisterous, a bundle of energy.  He walked at 10 months and basically ran straight away and hasn't stopped!  From 4 months old (I remember it vividly) he became so intense, aware of the world, noticeably cranky that he couldn't do/get what he wanted on his own.  He is so contrary and constantly argues, he is quite verbal and has a good vocabulary, I can understand 99% of what he says, but if you ask him a question his immediate response is always 'NO'.  Always.  Sometimes it comes out as 'NooooooooES' when his brain realises fast enough - we've tested it.

 

This arguing starts from the minute he wakes up, he nags, whines and just goes on and on and on.  I don't give in very often, but I try to be reasonable.

He fights with his older brother, screams when he doesn't get his way.  Throws mega tantrums, kicking, screaming, biting, sobbing, I have never seen anything like it before (I have 2 older kids who had their moments but nothing on par with this!)  Other people who have seen him at his worst are at a complete loss.  He does better with strict boundaries and 100% consistency, though he's pretty incessant at testing those boundaries, but he can behave well.  He pushes boundaries harder with some people and in some places (ie. grandparents), he is clever, he knows where the inconsistency can be found.  I think he is quite immature for his age, and has pretty poor impulse control.  He just refuses to comply until he's 100% sure that you mean it and will follow through, and even then he may still refuse.  For example, a simple instruction like 'get your foot off that toy', the first 3 requests he'll shift it slightly but still touching and will look at you to see how you react...  Or he'll sulk and simply refuse... Or he'll scream and turn it into a tantrum.

 

I'm starting to wonder if there's more going on with him, simply because we're struggling with the same issues over and over.  The current one is toilet training.  Feels like we've been at this forever.  I know he's fairly young still, but he had it!  He's still pretty good with #1, but we're struggling with #2 and he just doesn't care, or get it, or something.  He used to be fine, then he regressed a bit, we were working on it, now he's worse.  This seems to be a bit of a pattern with his behaviour in general, just when I think we've turned a corner it all gets worse again.  About a year ago he was toilet trained, he had figured out that he could get do it on his own (pants off, climb onto toilet etc.) and was happy to go - he likes to be able to do things himself, his way; then he wanted me to help every time, now he just holds on, refuses to go, goes in his pants and ignores it.

 

We have had quite a bit of stress/upheaval in his lifetime, I'm unsure how much of an effect that might have had.  We've been pretty stable for about a year now though.

 

Some other random things that may or may not ring bells for someone:

He HATES the swing, always has.  Screams.  Sometimes he's happy to try it again but he's terrified.  I think he feels out of control.

He has always been more sensitive to feeling uncomfortable physically, like wind, teething etc.

Gets fixated on one thing.  Not too badly, he can deal with something different but it's not his preference and depending on his mood or what else has been going on it can make or break his self-control.  eg. he has favourite clothes, when he realised he couldn't wear them all the time (he secrets them out of the washing basket/pulls them off the washing line) he moved to include other similar clothes (stripey).  He does this with food, colours, movies, toys etc.

He's quite fearless and very capable, climbs, jumps, runs.

Hated drawing/colouring until the last month or so (this didn't worry me as his older brother was the same)

Shy around other adults (hides behind me or simply ignores them) and enjoys other kids but doesn't really play with them.  Adores littler kids, he's very kind and gentle to smaller people.  Plays well with his younger cousin (they race their scooters at grandma's!)

 

 

Anyway, we're exhausted, the whole household.  He can be such a joy, he's got the brightest smile you've ever seen!  He can be very sweet, fun, loving and clever.  I've read SPD checklists and he ticks some of the boxes, not all, so I don't know if that's something to look into further or if there might be something else.  Or just any ideas/tips/books on dealing with a very strong-willed pre-schooler!  I purposely haven't listed what we've tried as I'd like to hear all suggestions with a fresh and open mind!

 

 

(my second post)

Thanks for your replies!

 

I'll have another look at the food.  We eliminated colours/additives pretty strictly when dealing with older Ds' eczema, but I haven't been so worried about it lately, it's worth another look.  DH is a baker so we generally don't do additivey bread.

 

The SPD things I've read sound more extreme sensory than what I'm seeing here, I think.  Can you just have mild/borderline?

 

My gut tells me high energy/will/intelligence with low maturity/impulse, I think.  I blame my father and my FIL, they were both handful children who from an early age (about 4) would leave the house after breakfast (couldn't be stopped apparently) until dusk, roaming the Indian Jungle and Eastern European town respectively...

 

I also wanted to add that change is a big trigger, which I don't think is necessarily in itself abnormal for his age.  Changing activity, leaving the park etc.

 

 

Library Lover - from the link you posted: "Tantrums, clumsiness, 'immaturity,' impulsiveness." - except for the clumsiness, yes exactly.   

 

I've got an opportunity to have a basic overall check up for 'school readiness' with him soon where they will be able to refer me to a specialist if need be.

 

[Suze]

Hi, I took at look at the chat site to see what others have said and - I agree. Hating swings is a big indicator for SPD. during my daughter's first SPD OT eval when she was 4 she started crying when she looked at the swing that they planned to assess her on :).

 

Dealing with her sensory issues helped her challenges with transition and automatic "no" quite a bit because she wasn't overstimulated all the time. Others mentioned food and I will echo that. We are now gluten and casein free and follow the Feingold program. When I removed artificial ingredients from food I saw no change, until I also removed them from toothpaste and so, etc, and removed Hugh salicylate foods. I've learned that a teaspoon of tomato will leave my daughter argumentative and misbehaving for days. It's really quite remarkable - albeit miserable.

 

Processing challenges can create a cranky child, too (and cranky kids argue a lot). So that's another thing to have on your list of possibilities. From where I sit, after my journey, I would look at food first - at minimum all artificials and probably full Feingold, then move to casein and gluten if needed. I would do OT also if you can afford it. I don't regret it for ,y daughter, but so many of her challenges disappeared with food. I wish we had done that first.

[Suze]

Please forgive my dual thumb typing errors. I love my ipad mini - but it makes correcting a reply very challenging :)

[Guest tadamsmar]

The best DYI advice I have is to use the methods in the book "Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child" by the head of the Yale child conduct center.

 

Good you are going to get some professional evaluation.

[PeterPan]

Welcome to the LC board!  It's a very good place to be!  :)

 

He definitely needs an OT eval for sensory issues, and the OT can do a spectrum screening to see if you should be getting any other evals sooner.  Definitely do the OT eval.  Sorry you're having a hard time.  My ds5 is a handful and also have sensory issues, etc.  He's a lot of what you describe, but your boy goes farther.  I've already done OT evals with my dd, and now the ped wants me to get one for ds.  (I'm still working on what OT.)  In your case, I'd definitely get them and pronto.  I already know about 80% of what I'm dealing with and even how to do the stuff for it (bringing, weighted collars, etc.).

 

And yes to your efforts with consistency and structure.  Definitely keep up with that.  You get those kind of contradictions when they're crazy bright and struggling with stuff.  He has the intellectual ability to think through it that way, so he does.  Try doing more with his mind and see if that helps.  Our speech therapist is always encouraging me to do more with him intellectually to use up some of that energy.  (like bumped up 2-3+ years beyond his behavior age, seriously)  I maxed him out recently when I tried Star Trek Catan on him and he melted down.  He played for about 10-15 min though, just fine.  When you wear out their mind, it can help wear down their body.  Then I put him right into something REALLY QUIET.  We do a lot with audiobooks on the iPad and videos to make sure he gets that alternating of intense and quiet in a very scheduled, consistent way.

[kbutton]

When you wear out their mind, it can help wear down their body.  Then I put him right into something REALLY QUIET.  We do a lot with audiobooks on the iPad and videos to make sure he gets that alternating of intense and quiet in a very scheduled, consistent way.

 

I commented on your other thread, but I wanted to echo this suggestion. When my son was little, I had to feed his mind consistently every AM, or he was bananas. We had undivided one-on-one time reading books for at least 30 minutes every AM (he was my first)--skipping it was not reasonable. It probably would have been worse than skipping breakfast! We read books of every conceivable kind. He started listening to audio chapter books a little before age 2. He'd listen to 45 minutes of Magic Tree House, and then he'd put the same one on again and start it over. We brought audio picture books home from the library, and I picked them up from every yard sale where I could find them. He also liked radio dramas (Adventures in Odyssey, the Narnia books dramatized, etc.). He preferred to NOT look at the pictures while listening, but he'd look at them later or before he read the book. 

[LMD]

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply!

 

I appreciate your comments and am thinking them through...

 

I got the book 'Out of Sync' yesterday and had a quick look over the checklists, I really don't think he ticks many boxes at all.  It just wasn't a lightning bolt of 'yes, that's him'...

 

Honestly, i don't know how I feel about all the advice in both threads about needing an evaluation etc.  I don't want to imagine problems that are just normal little boy stuff, you know?  Anyway, I'll talk to a few professionals (I have some Dr friends as well) and think it over.

 

Am definitely looking at foods, colours & preservatives first - we're pretty good but I realised that some have crept back in.

 

OhElizabeth - I really like your advice.  I'll definitely try that.  I had already decided to do some real, intentional preschool stuff with him this year in an effort to focus some energy/attention and add some structure.  He went through a puzzle phase a few months ago.

 

Just to give a clearer picture, this was how yesterday went:

Whining over breakfast, but when left to it (ie, I just ignored his whinging and reiterated that this was breakfast) he realised he was hungry and ate well.

Argued over wearing a hat when we went to the park.  Very sulky.  He came around and wore his hat when he understood that it was essential in getting to go to the park.  Although he did try to sneakily take off and 'forget' his hat whilst at the park.  He ran almost the entire way to the park and expended plenty of energy whilst there.  We had a nice time at the park and he came home without drama, though he did ask to be carried home.  He didn't use the swing at all.

So far this is going pretty well, no tantrums.

after a drink and snack he played nicely with his toys when we got home - there were no sibling fights because his brother and sister engaged themselves elsewhere.  He's happy to play alone, his game, his way iykwim.

I got him to help me make some cupcakes which he loved.  Though we did get some nagging over tasting it (he wanted to lick the spoon, then re-coat the spoon to keep tasting).

We had lunch which he wasn't too impressed with, mucked around, acting like a clown to his siblings.  He picked it apart and ate what he wanted, I fed him the rest without much resistance.

Then we went to the library - big mistake.  He was very tired by this time.  We had whining and dragging feet before we left the house.  At the library they had computers in the kids area turned on (they're new, I forgot they were there) so he was attracted like a moth to flame.  At least I could get my books.  Time to leave - meltdown.  Screaming, I had to carry him to the car while he screamed to 'go back'.  This lasted about 5-10minutes, so not too bad really.  He was sad and sorry afterwards.  When we got home he found his favourite t-shirt and put it on.

And he used the potty pretty well yesterday.  Over all, a good day.

 

See, reading that back, it sounds pretty normal to me?

[Arcadia]

 

I got the book 'Out of Sync' yesterday and had a quick look over the checklists, I really don't think he ticks many boxes at all.  It just wasn't a lightning bolt of 'yes, that's him'...

 

My older does fit one of the case studies/example in the 'Out of Sync' book.  He is the kind who rather starve than eat something he has sensory issues with.  However it was the 'Raising your Spirited Child' book that help cope with his strong will and intensity. I borrowed the book off the library.

[LMD]

Thanks Arcadia, I'll look it up!  I also got a book suggested on the other thread 'The Explosive Child' which so far sounds more like him.

[kbutton]

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply!

 

I appreciate your comments and am thinking them through...

 

I got the book 'Out of Sync' yesterday and had a quick look over the checklists, I really don't think he ticks many boxes at all.  It just wasn't a lightning bolt of 'yes, that's him'...

 

Honestly, i don't know how I feel about all the advice in both threads about needing an evaluation etc.  I don't want to imagine problems that are just normal little boy stuff, you know?  Anyway, I'll talk to a few professionals (I have some Dr friends as well) and think it over.

 

Am definitely looking at foods, colours & preservatives first - we're pretty good but I realised that some have crept back in.

 

OhElizabeth - I really like your advice.  I'll definitely try that.  I had already decided to do some real, intentional preschool stuff with him this year in an effort to focus some energy/attention and add some structure.  He went through a puzzle phase a few months ago.

 

Just to give a clearer picture, this was how yesterday went:

Whining over breakfast, but when left to it (ie, I just ignored his whinging and reiterated that this was breakfast) he realised he was hungry and ate well.

Argued over wearing a hat when we went to the park.  Very sulky.  He came around and wore his hat when he understood that it was essential in getting to go to the park.  Although he did try to sneakily take off and 'forget' his hat whilst at the park.  He ran almost the entire way to the park and expended plenty of energy whilst there.  We had a nice time at the park and he came home without drama, though he did ask to be carried home.  He didn't use the swing at all.

So far this is going pretty well, no tantrums.

after a drink and snack he played nicely with his toys when we got home - there were no sibling fights because his brother and sister engaged themselves elsewhere.  He's happy to play alone, his game, his way iykwim.

I got him to help me make some cupcakes which he loved.  Though we did get some nagging over tasting it (he wanted to lick the spoon, then re-coat the spoon to keep tasting).

We had lunch which he wasn't too impressed with, mucked around, acting like a clown to his siblings.  He picked it apart and ate what he wanted, I fed him the rest without much resistance.

Then we went to the library - big mistake.  He was very tired by this time.  We had whining and dragging feet before we left the house.  At the library they had computers in the kids area turned on (they're new, I forgot they were there) so he was attracted like a moth to flame.  At least I could get my books.  Time to leave - meltdown.  Screaming, I had to carry him to the car while he screamed to 'go back'.  This lasted about 5-10minutes, so not too bad really.  He was sad and sorry afterwards.  When we got home he found his favourite t-shirt and put it on.

And he used the potty pretty well yesterday.  Over all, a good day.

 

See, reading that back, it sounds pretty normal to me?

 

I am not trying to talk you into a diagnosis. Plenty of kids are trying, intense, and testy without having anything wrong with their development. BUT... this is what my son was like on his good days. We could have up to three weeks of these sorts of days before all you-know-what (or anything between that and normal) would erupt. It was very cyclical because he could compensate well for certain periods of time. He still can, but as social and sensory situations ramp up and school demands increase, he can't do it as well. And, sensory can just be low-level, everyday stuff that eventually becomes too much (highly sensitive people are this way, for instance, even if they don't have SPD).

 

Many, many times, the difference between neurotypical and developmentally problematic behavior is frequency, intensity, duration, etc. The symptoms that appear on a checklist for sensory issues or Asperger's are things that neurotypical people face every day, but not necessarily to that degree, that level of intensity, that frequency, or for the same reasons.

 

I was absolutely desperate to have help with my son when he was little. By 3.5, things had really simmered down for a while to something manageable. I thought we were past it. Even when I was asking desperately for help ("did your kids do..."), I don't know if anyone would have gotten through with the message that something was off--no one tried. They blamed me for every inch of difficult behavior and rarely gave me credit when he was mature beyond his years. I did want help, and I did suspect something minor was off--I might not have been receptive to Asperger's!

 

I did know that he was gifted, but probably not off the charts gifted (I was right). No one thought that made a difference (that was wrong). BTW, most people have very limited views of what gifted means. There is as a huge IQ range that fits into the gifted category, and the behaviors in that range vary widely. Giftedness affects many, many things, not just school abilities. Gifted also skews developmental behaviors so that it can be tricky to see if there are problems (the gift and the problem may mask each other or sort of equalize each other).

 

I'd never heard of sensory issues, and my son doesn't quite fit the profile in the Out of Sync child in every way. But what does fit is so strong and intense that it cannot be ignored. (He's sensory seeking until he's suddenly overloaded; then he avoids it like the plague--conflicting evidence abounds.) I would not have seen the signs when he was little, but I see it now--I thought he was a little bodybuilder when (at 6 months), he would drag a basket of magazines around behind him while he crawled (the pile was a foot tall and weighed as much as he did or more). Now I know that he calms himself with heavy lifting, pushing, and pulling. I had no idea that tipping his head forward to rinse his hair with water running down his face was both soothing (the water running on his face) and less terrifying than being laid backwards, and that it meant that he had gravitational insecurity (after all, he would calm down when we tipped him upside down). I didn't know that it wasn't normal for a child to sit on a sit and spin for 45 minutes going in one direction without stopping (though I knew it was a bit extreme). I didn't realize that by dragging him to his room and putting him in his crib or on his bed for bad behavior worked because he needed to be separated from all stimulation (it was soothing). In fact, one parenting book I read told me that it was cruel to isolate a child for bad behavior, and that I should punish him, restore him to "fellowship," and then move on with the day (totally disaster).

 

All this to say, very gently, that you are sort of asking for advice and then passing off what people are trying to tell you. I suggest that you keep track of his behaviors, no matter how innocuous, and file them away for later. Keep track of what works and what does not (it's surprising what that alone will tell you later, and I see some things in your description that are telling to me). Try the diet stuff (an elimination diet is a great idea), but don't try a bunch of things at once willy-nilly. Take it all away and then add it back in one thing at a time. Then, add in supplements if you think they'll help. You can't isolate the helpful things if you are scattershot.

 

Take a deep breath after all this, and then see where you are. If all is well, great. If all is well until he's five, then look for more patterns and see if you need an evaluation. It's not an all-or-nothing, black and white thing.

 

[LMD]

thanks kbutton, I appreciate your post.  You're right.  I had been thinking I need to keep closer track of behaviours, because we get so overwhelmed at the moment it's hard to see a bigger picture of patterns or causes.  It's hard to see it all clearly, there's so many factors at play.

 

I really am trying to mull over all the advice.  I guess it looks like passing off - and there probably is an element of that, I won't lie, it was hard to read so many 'my child diagnosed with x was like that' posts - but I think I'm trying to clarify, not very coherently, what exactly it is that is ringing people's bells and why...  I know no-one can give me definitive answers on a forum.  Anyway, I'm thinking it all over and filing the suggestions in my mind.

 

 

He also gets very rigid in his thinking, for example, if he wants a banana and while opening it I cut the tip off - it's 'broken' and not right and he'll get upset.  He just yelled at me because the legs weren't right on a drawing I did for him...

[kbutton]

I really am trying to mull over all the advice.  I guess it looks like passing off - and there probably is an element of that, I won't lie, it was hard to read so many 'my child diagnosed with x was like that' posts - but I think I'm trying to clarify, not very coherently, what exactly it is that is ringing people's bells and why...  I know no-one can give me definitive answers on a forum.  Anyway, I'm thinking it all over and filing the suggestions in my mind.

 

 

This makes sense--when I do this, it comes across to some folks as argumentative. So, I can see how your trying to think out loud would look to me like maybe trying to pass things off. I am glad you can see what I was getting at, rather than thinking I was trying to call you out, because I know how hard it is to be in the spot of asking for advice and mulling things over.

 

I think you are putting your finger on the right concerns, whatever ends up being at the root of them!

 

[msjones]

How does he sleep?  Might he still need a nap?  An earlier bedtime?

 

My preschoolers were never at their best unless they'd had their full sleep.

 

Just a thought...