What do you think of this math sequencing idea for a young student?

[The Governess]

I've posted a few times about my dd and my indecision about math. :D. She will be a young 10yo in the fall taking pre-algebra. She loves math and is quick to pick up new concepts. She doesn't require much teaching.

 

So far we have been using Singapore Math. She started with Earlybird and is now finishing up 5a. I was hoping to switch to AOPS in the fall, but I'm not sure if she has the stamina she needs for that style math at this point.

 

Then, I had an idea. What if for grades 5-8 I let her use a more basic math curriculum... say Saxon (or Math u See? or similar?)? She has used Saxon in the past in a co-op setting and liked it. Then, in high school, she could take the AOPS classes online starting with Algebra. She will have matured by then, and the topics will already be familiar to her, so she would hopefully be more successful with the problem solving, and be able to keep up with the quick pace.

 

Has anyone done something like this? I've also ordered the Dolciani accelerated pre-algebra text as another option. I'm just trying to figure out how to continue to expose her to new math while giving her time to build her problem-solving stamina. And I love the idea of AOPS for her when she is ready.

 

If I did this, we'd probably follow this sequence (unless hitting a snag)

 

5th - pre-algebra

6th - algebra

7th - algebra 2

8th - geometry (or maybe skip geometry and try AOPS Algebra I here instead?)

 

9th - algebra 1 and 2 AoPS

10th- geometry and number theory AoPS

11th/12th higher AoPS maths

 

Thoughts? This is a girl who could potentially go into a STEM program for college. Her strengths are math, grammar, and foreign language; she also loves science and will probably be taking some programming classes in the near future. :)

[regentrude]

I would not do this.

She seems  to be a strong math student. I would go right away to AoPS (after completing prealgebra, with AoPS or a different program) and take it slowly, spend as much time as she needs.  I would be concerned that using a basic program would be boring for a strong math student (it was torture for mine). Also, by repeating previously learned material with AoPS you will completely loose the point of the discovery based method.

 

I have used AoPS beginning from algebra (prealgebra did not yet exist) with both my students. My DS started in 6th grade. Worked at his pace, spent an entire year getting through the algebra 1 portion of the book (first 13 chapters). Took  semester off to do Counting and Probability, returned to algebra, finished the text in the middle of 8th grade.

For my strong math students, I prefer to go slow and steady with conceptually strong, in depth materials, instead of racing through a lesser curriculum and having to repeat everything.

[The Governess]

I would not do this.

She seems to be a strong math student. I would go right away to AoPS (after completing prealgebra, with AoPS or a different program) and take it slowly, spend as much time as she needs. I would be concerned that using a basic program would be boring for a strong math student (it was torture for mine). Also, by repeating previously learned material with AoPS you will completely loose the point of the discovery based method.

 

I have used AoPS beginning from algebra (prealgebra did not yet exist) with both my students. My DS started in 6th grade. Worked at his pace, spent an entire year getting through the algebra 1 portion of the book (first 13 chapters). Took semester off to do Counting and Probability, returned to algebra, finished the text in the middle of 8th grade.

For my strong math students, I prefer to go slow and steady with conceptually strong, in depth materials, instead of racing through a lesser curriculum and having to repeat everything.

Thanks! Yes, she is a strong math student. She just doesn't have much perseverance. She likes her math to be quick and easy. She would think math facts drills were a barrel of fun to do even though she mastered them all years ago. The most frustrating aspects of Singapore Math are the difficult word problems and the harder IP problems. She just won't spend the time needed to figure them out. If I give her some clues she will half-heartedly work on them, but otherwise if she gets stuck she just gives up. Trying to get her to keep trying is frustrating for both of us. She would be thrilled if I just let her do the text and workbook and called it a day.

 

This is what concerns me with AOPS. I'm worried I will have to drag her through kicking and screaming. ;) I think the discovery method itself would cause frustration. Do you think the program is worth doing if you aren't using it for discovery but rather just adding depth to previously studied topics? If I can't use AOPS at this time, would you suggest I go with another strong program and just not worry about trying to fit in AOPS later?

 

Thanks for your help (again....). :)

[wapiti]

I would suggest the same - use AoPS (or Dolciani if that works better for now) for prealgebra and then try the AoPS Intro to Algebra text.  In other words, use whatever rigorous options you have that will work for the moment and then try to move over to AoPS if and when it might be a good fit.

 

There's more than one way to take advantage of AoPS resources.  If you don't think AoPS will fit now and you use a different program for the standard math sequence, one option for later on might be to use the extra books, Intro to C&P and NT, if your student should have an interest in those topics, or the Art of Problem Solving Vol 1 and 2.

 

I have taken a little different approach with the Prealgebra text, doing the lesson problems together socratically, gradually trying to hand over the reins as we get further in the book.  My goal is to somewhat adjust my student to this big-picture way of thinking, to attempt to develop some patience for problem-solving through experience (at least that's my hope for my latest kicker-and-screamer lol, one of my ds10s; that seemed to work well for my other ds10 and my dd12, though this ds10 is a particularly difficult case).

 

If you missed these, here are some threads from this board and the Logic board that might help you.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/476133-aops-prea-users-talk-me-through-how-you-use-it/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/493642-what-is-too-much-help-on-aops/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/422859-regarding-aops-prealgebra-can-i-just-say/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/454440-q-for-aops-users/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/351434-question-about-discovery-method-of-aops/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/473914-ok-so-what-is-going-on-hereaops-pre-a-vs-elementary-algebra/

[The Governess]

I would suggest the same - use AoPS (or Dolciani if that works better for now) for prealgebra and then try the AoPS Intro to Algebra text. In other words, use whatever rigorous options you have that will work for the moment and then try to move over to AoPS if and when it might be a good fit.

 

There's more than one way to take advantage of AoPS resources. If you don't think AoPS will fit now and you use a different program for the standard math sequence, one option for later on might be to use the extra books, Intro to C&P and NT, if your student should have an interest in those topics, or the Art of Problem Solving Vol 1 and 2.

 

I have taken a little different approach with the Prealgebra text, doing the lesson problems together socratically, gradually trying to hand over the reins as we get further in the book. My goal is to somewhat adjust my student to this big-picture way of thinking, to attempt to develop some patience for problem-solving through experience (at least that's my hope for my latest kicker-and-screamer lol, one of my ds10s; that seemed to work well for my other ds10 and my dd12, though this ds10 is a particularly difficult case).

 

If you missed these, here are some threads from this board and the Logic board that might help you.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/476133-aops-prea-users-talk-me-through-how-you-use-it/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/493642-what-is-too-much-help-on-aops/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/422859-regarding-aops-prealgebra-can-i-just-say/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/454440-q-for-aops-users/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/351434-question-about-discovery-method-of-aops/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/473914-ok-so-what-is-going-on-hereaops-pre-a-vs-elementary-algebra/

Thank you. I really like the idea of using Dolciani and introducing AOPS throughout the year to stretch her. Maybe by the time she gets to Algebra she will be ready to take on AOPS full-time. If not, we can continue with Dolciani and try again the next year.

 

It's good to hear from a parent who has a similar child that is building some problem-solving stamina by working through AOPS :). I have received responses in the past that AOPS shouldn't be attempted with this type of student, so I was nervous about trying it. Now I have ordered it and I think between Dolciani and AOPS I can find some sort of combo that will work for her (I'm still not sure if the discovery questions will work, but I'm hoping that discussing them and reading through the solutions together will be beneficial even if that's all she is willing to give me). ;)

[wapiti]

Thank you. I really like the idea of using Dolciani and introducing AOPS throughout the year to stretch her. Maybe by the time she gets to Algebra she will be ready to take on AOPS full-time. If not, we can continue with Dolciani and try again the next year.

 

Another option (that I have done) is start AoPS and then back up to Dolciani for brief periods to the extent that you'd like more/simpler practice or more broken-down instruction.

[The Governess]

Another option (that I have done) is start AoPS and then back up to Dolciani for brief periods to the extent that you'd like more/simpler practice or more broken-down instruction.

I'll keep this in mind too. Thanks!

[MamaSprout]

I've thought about this a lot for my own Dd, who will fully jump into PreA in fifth grade. This year, I started to add a "fun" element to math each morning. Usually an AoPS video, dragon box or Hands on Equations. She does watch Vi Hart on her own time. I also try to do one afternoon of a math activity with other kids each week. Not really a math circle, but something mathy with an element of fun.

 

During her regular math time, one day a week, she works on Dolciani New Edition instead of Singapore. This way she gets a taste of PreA and is exposed to the set theory regardless of what PreA we use. I really prefer New Edition to Accelerated Course. You can "hear" the author more clearly in the New Edition, although it is not as rigorous.

 

My tentative schedule to transition her to AoPS:

 

5th PreAlgebra: Derek Owens PreA + Math Count Minis: http://mathcounts.org/resources/video-library/mathcounts-minis

or MOEMS.

6th Algebra: Foerster (Math w/o Borders) + supplementing with AoPS in some form.

7th Geometry: Chaukerin (Math w/o Borders) or Jacobs. I think both are discovery based. (AoPS Geometry is really hard, often taken after another Geometry course)

8th Finish leftover Geometry/ Algebra, + AoPS Counting and Probability and NT

9th AoPS Algebra 2

10th continue with AoPS...

 

Where we are, there aren't any math clubs available, but I'm hoping something comes together by the time she's old enough. The small uni close by has an active math club, so I'd like to see if any of their kids would be interested in helping with one.

 

I hope my musings help your musings :o)

[8filltheheart]

My ds's math sequence was sort of similar to what elladarcy posted bc I didn't know about AoPS. The sequence did not hurt his ability to jump into AoPS and perhaps it would allow your dd more time to mature. My 9th grader hated AoPS in 7th grade, but she is bored in math and is considering this same sequence (though behind her brother' s pace)

 

MUS alg/ geo as pre-alg and pre-geo

Foerster alg 1

Houghton Mifflin Geometry (chalkdust's text from several yrs ago) + Math Counts

Foerster alg 2 + Math Counts + AoPS C&P

AOPS alg 3 up

 

Dd is finishing the alg 2 portion of Foerster's right now and is considering AoPS alg 3 online class.

[boscopup]

Another option (that I have done) is start AoPS and then back up to Dolciani for brief periods to the extent that you'd like more/simpler practice or more broken-down instruction.

This is working well for my 9 year old. He's also developing persistence in problem solving by using AoPS. We started the book working together very closely, but now a few chapters in, he's much more independent with it.

 

Most other options I'd thought of just didn't challenge him at all. Dolciani is excellent, but it's easy compared to AoPS. He can work through Dolciani completely independently and get zero problems wrong. Yet he needs the Prealgebra material - he's not ready for Algebra quite yet. AoPS has been the perfect balance of appropriately challenging material at the level of math he needs to learn right now.

 

Note that I have no plans to use the online classes anytime soon. They would not be a good fit right now, both for pacing and computer skills necessary (typing). Maybe in late middle school or early high school, they would be a good option for us.

[Dmmetler]

I considered and actually started something like this with my DD, who hit pre-Algebra at age 7. She did LOF PreA and key to Algebra, and I'd planned to continue with LOF and then cycle back to AOPS for high school. Part of that was because I had a cover school telling me that they wouldn't grant high school credit for anything done before 8th grade, and that Algebra I, II, and geometry had to be on the high school transcript for her to graduate, so I felt I had to do those courses in high school.

 

After a lot of posts here, we jumped to AOPS PreA this year, and two chapters in, DD asked if we could drop LOF because she liked AOPS better. She'll start AOPS Algebra I either later this Spring/summer or next fall, depending on how many rabbit trails we take this Spring. She's also doing special topics in math with DH separately (working through interesting trade books, mostly from Dover).

 

In 20/20 hindsight, she was ready for AOPS last year. I was the one who wasn't sure yet. I don't regret taking two years because she developed a lot of independence and confidence in math last year and Fred's short problem sets were a help. But there's no way it would have been appropriate for her to have done all of high school math twice.

 

On the transcript thing, I've now been told by two colleges to keep my own transcript, and to jump through the hoops as needed for the cover school-that it's really not all that unusual for them to see a cover school transcript that lists Algebra I, II geometry, and number theory all in 8th grade, accompanied by a mommy-made write up that indicates that such classes were actually 5th, 6th, and 7th grade, and that the actual math course in 8th was number theory-and that as long as the student's ACT and placement test scores show that they've mastered high school math, they don't care that the official transcript would be impossible without Hermione's time turner. There is enough math out there to keep an advanced math student busy, even if you don't want to send them to a college classroom before they've finished high school in other areas or before age 18.

[The Governess]

Elladarcy and 8, thanks so much for sharing your sequences. It's very helpful to see the transition into AOPS for a student that didn't start with pre-A. And the math counts minis look really great!

 

Also, it's good to know that the AOPS geometry is very difficult. Geometry is this child's weakest math area - she's not horrible at it, but it's relatively difficult for her compared to other math topics. I'm thinking I might add in an easier geometry while we are studying Algebra 1 and 2 and then if she's ready and willing we can try AOPS geometry in high school.

 

How does this look?

 

5th - pre-A - Dolciani and AOPS combo

6th - 8th - algebra 1 and 2, gentle intro to geometry, maybe number theory

9th - Algebra 3, counting and probability?

10th - AOPS geometry

11th -12th - higher maths (stats, calculus?)

 

I know all of this could get thrown out the window at any moment, but I like having a rough map of where we are headed. :P

[kiana]

I really wouldn't go with something that's very basic like Saxon or MUS. I think Dolciani is a good idea and Foerster may work too. I'd be working on building her stamina and appetite for problem-solving with gradually more difficult programs.

 

For geometry, I haven't seen it myself but Understanding Geometry -- http://www.criticalthinking.com/understanding-geometry.html -- is a middle school geometry course which might help prime her for a more challenging course later. It's also not very expensive. :)

[CrunchyGirl]

Following. It's becoming painfully clear we will likely hit pre-A within a year. Even a year might be stretching it. He doesn't turn 7 until the end of June.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I really wouldn't go with something that's very basic like Saxon or MUS. I think Dolciani is a good idea and Foerster may work too. I'd be working on building her stamina and appetite for problem-solving with gradually more difficult programs.

 

For geometry, I haven't seen it myself but Understanding Geometry -- http://www.criticalthinking.com/understanding-geometry.html -- is a middle school geometry course which might help prime her for a more challenging course later. It's also not very expensive. :)

 

 

I just got this, and I think it is going to be great.  It is broken into very bite-size lessons, it's worktext style and somewhat colorful without being glossy or over the top.  It requires thinking and problem solving and understanding and applying the concepts, but it's not so nit-picky (like MM) and it's a much better presentation visually than AoPS PreA - it covers the same ground in the early chapters, but also covers much more.  I don't have other high school geometry texts to compare it to, but it looks like a rock-solid middle school geometry presentation.  With the talk of more integrated math w/ CC, this seems like a smart thing to add to a PreA/Alg 1 year for really thorough Pre-Geometry coverage.  I suspect it will make a "hard" geometry like AoPS more doable, as well.  

[MamaSprout]

I just got this, and I think it is going to be great.  It is broken into very bite-size lessons, it's worktext style and somewhat colorful without being glossy or over the top.  It requires thinking and problem solving and understanding and applying the concepts, but it's not so nit-picky (like MM) and it's a much better presentation visually than AoPS PreA - it covers the same ground in the early chapters, but also covers much more.  I don't have other high school geometry texts to compare it to, but it looks like a rock-solid middle school geometry presentation.  With the talk of more integrated math w/ CC, this seems like a smart thing to add to a PreA/Alg 1 year for really thorough Pre-Geometry coverage.  I suspect it will make a "hard" geometry like AoPS more doable, as well.  

 

Do you think it would complement Jousting Armadillos?

[kohlby]

Math-U-See is too watered down.  The early levels are great and easy to pace to the child, but then there's not enough depth.  We loved the early levels.  We did some of Alg I and it was horrible.  We were both bored beyond belief.  We left MUS Alg I for AoPS Intro to Alg and things got MUCH better.    He had just turned 9 years old.  He did Alg I, Intro to Number Theory, and is now finishing up Alg II.  He'll be starting Geometry by Feb.  He's 10 and 5th grade, but it's working well for him.  I'm nervous about doing AoPS Geometry and have looked into other options too.   But he really wants to do AoPS and I wrote them and they thought it was worth trying.  I have a couple other options like Jacobs and the one used in Math Without Borders that I've considered.  So, he'll be starting AoPS Geometry at 10, though I'm really not sure if he's ready for it. I won't hesitate to change it if I need to and have him do something else first.  We have plenty of time though, so it's okay if we make the "wrong" pick and have to change.  We had to do that before, when he did half of MUS Alg I in 3rd grade, I realized I needed to start with something else at the start of 4th grade.

 

 However, then there's my second child.  I really don't think AoPS will work for her.  She's definitely a strong math student - but she's totally different from my first.  She is a perfectionist and gets too much anxiety.  Her thought process is different too - my eldest is out-of-the-box and thinks from all angles but makes careless errors.  She wants to do it systematically and not have as much wiggle room - but I feel some wiggle room is a good just due to what math really is.  So, she's doing Life of Fred right now.  She'll do LoF for Pre-Algebra too and then I'll have to figure out what to do for her Alg I.  Maybe Lial or Foerester.  I want something challenging but not quite as stressful as AoPS. 

 

I have no clue what the transcript will look like - it depends on who we're writing it for.  I may need a "pre-high school" category where I list his high school level classes on there.  Or I may not - especially if he does enough credits through dual enrollment.  I am considering letting him skip 6th grade in name.  He's on middle school level easily on all subjects as a 5th grader and math is obviously above that.  That will still leave a lot of high school math before high school.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Do you think it would complement Jousting Armadillos?

 

Absolutely.  The weakness of JA and its companions is that they are straight algebra - there is no geometry or statistics/probability.  This will be an excellent complement.

 

I guess it's not a weakness, that was poorly stated- they are excellent at what they do, which is Algebra.  But that's not all kids need to learn, so this fills out the scope & sequence nicely.

 

I wonder if there is an equally good stand-alone for middle school level statistics/probability?  Other than AoPS C&P, which is, I think, more advanced?

[8filltheheart]

Math-U-See is too watered down.  The early levels are great and easy to pace to the child, but then there's not enough depth.  We loved the early levels.  We did some of Alg I and it was horrible. 

 

I agree in that I would never use MUS for an actual alg course.   However, for young kids that are ready for pre-alg, but not yet ready for alg, it works great as a pre-alg book.    (though I have never seen just the alg book.   We have an alg/geo combo book, so they do both as pre-alg/pre-geo.)   It is definitely on the easy side.    It has worked well for my kids (though I have never had a child that was completing alg 2 as a 9 yr old.   My kids are strong math students, but definitely NOT that sort of kid.)

[The Governess]

I really wouldn't go with something that's very basic like Saxon or MUS. I think Dolciani is a good idea and Foerster may work too. I'd be working on building her stamina and appetite for problem-solving with gradually more difficult programs.

 

For geometry, I haven't seen it myself but Understanding Geometry -- http://www.criticalthinking.com/understanding-geometry.html -- is a middle school geometry course which might help prime her for a more challenging course later. It's also not very expensive. :)

This is great! I really like the idea of using this or something like MUS geometry during algebra 1 & 2 to break things up and prep for high school geo. I also have Patty Paper Geometry to pull out during that time frame too. Thanks for sharing this resource. :)

[kohlby]

Though a simpler course can help a student who isn't quite ready for a more difficult one, MUS bored us and made my child hate math.  He loved math and MUS from Alpha through Pre-Algebra.  So doing the more basic MUS Alg I wasn't helpful as a step closer to AoPS but instead was a huge chore for both of us.  There are some students who it will work for.  But my son was not one of them.  Even I didn't care for MUS Alg I  - and I love Algebra!  So, if you go more basic, just make sure that math is still interesting for your child.  It's really going to depend on your child as to what is interesting.  Mine preferred to go into AoPS Intro to Alg even though he was borderline ready for it at the very start.  He preferred to have that struggle but have the math be interesting and was able to rise to it.  I'm sure my second child will prefer to have a half step in between two if she moves from an easy to challenging curriculum. I still doubt I'll use MUS Alg I for her after my experience with it.