Best and worst things about England

[Incognito]

Margaret in CO - I've spent a fair bit of time in countries where you can wander through other people's properties.  It actually works quite well.  I remember there being some disdain for the Germans in Sweden because some of the tourists would leave a mess or not talk to the landowner before setting up camp, but in general everyone loved it and they didn't want to change the laws.  IIRC, you could camp for up to 3 days on land in general (but you were to be courteous - you didn't just camp in someone's backyard).

 

When there is a national health system there isn't the same sue-you culture there is in the US.   

[Lady Florida.]

How does it follow that playgrounds (or anything else) would be safer if users take their own risks and facility providers are insulated from possible negligence and/or responsability for building unsafe playgrounds?

 

 

Bill

 

 

I think better in this case means more fun.

That was how I read it. Better because they can include some fun playground equipment that is a lot of fun but requires actual parental supervision.

[Mrs Mungo]

I can't answer for her, but from the way I read it, she meant "better" as in having more equipment and exciting things to do, because parents are responsible for their children's welfare.  The know they can't sue if their kid falls off a piece of equipment and gets hurt.  The parks we went to were always well maintained (I think the city/state is responsible for that, as they own the park) and includes equipment that is generally no longer found in most playgrounds today is the US.  There are really high (and I mean crazy high) towers, slides, climbing apparatus,  rope slides where you sit on a disk or hang by your hands and slide down from at least 10 feet and very high complicated rope climbing things (I have a photo somewhere of Indy on one, I'll see if I can find it) that look scary and dangerous.  If the parents feel it's dangerous, they keep their kids off.  If they don't, and a kid falls, well, they fall and the city/state is not at fault.  Personal responsibility is a big deal.

I have a photo of my kids on a jungle gym in The Netherlands that stretched across a shallow pond. Socialized medicine is a big part of this because people aren't so worried about paying for a hospitalization/ER visit. Nobody wants to see kids injured, but the fear of litigation is usually greater than any danger posed to kids. I tripped over my vacuum and hurt my knee pretty badly, but that doesn't make vacuums inherently dangerous.

 

eta: I don't understand why people are getting all up in arms about laws in *other countries* that have worked well for a long, long time. If you don't like it, then don't move there. There is no problem to solve here. 

[Laura Corin]

I'm just trying to understand. So, what I think I understand is that we're talking about public rights-of-way NOT being able to roam anywhere. I certainly understand rights-of-way--we have a stock easement across our place. It still flabbergasts me (if I understand correctly) that someone could camp on your property for three days. Did I read that correctly?

 

Interesting about "kissing gates". I'd never seen those. I'd still like to remember the name of the gate that is four posts, not connected, set in a diamond. It keeps horses and cattle in, but people can walk through easily.

 

No - you can walk anywhere, so long as you don't damage crops or annoy animals.  I don't think you can camp in Scotland, but apparently you can elsewhere.  

 

If I wanted to cross private land, I would look to see if crops had been planted, or if there were animals in the field. If walking across the field would damage crops then I would walk around the edge.  If there were sheep in the field but no lambs, I would walk right across the middle.  If it was cattle and I had the dog with me, I would go a different way (because cows are unpredictable around dogs).  

 

To give you an example: I had a look at our local map, and realised that I could get to a friend's house as the crow flies on foot very easily.  So I walked up a farm track to a road.  Crossed the road.  Climbed over a wall, walked straight across a pasture, climbed another wall, walked through a small wood, through a meadow, jumped over a stream, up a farm track, through some brambles......  In other words, I just set off.  There was no path, no right of way.  The whole country is one big right of way.

 

So it is right to roam wherever, not on a particular right of way.  This is a quotation from Scotland's law society on rural affairs:

 

"There are some predictable exceptions which include going through buildings, curtilage around buildings, reasonable privacy and disturbance zones around houses, land with sown or growing crops, sports and recreational fields while in use, golf courses - except for crossing over them, building sites and working quarries.

"You can however freely access areas including fields containing livestock and horses and over bridges, paths, waterways, fences and walls so long as you do so in a responsible manner.

"Additionally, the right also applies underwater, in caves and in the air. Access rights can be exercised at any time of day or night, however if you are using this right at night, ensure that you take greater care to respect the interests and privacy of others. Similarly, additional care should be taken when accessing areas where there are livestock or wild animals nearby."

 

L

[mumto2]

When we moved here at 7 and 9 my dcs no longer enjoyed our neighborhood playground in the US which was recently refurbished. They arrived here and found zip wires, climbing equipment,and huge complicated slides. They still are happy to meet friends at playgrounds and ds is almost 6 feet tall!

[Laura Corin]

When we moved here at 7 and 9 my dcs no longer enjoyed our neighborhood playground in the US which was recently refurbished. They arrived here and found zip wires, climbing equipment,and huge complicated slides. They still are happy to meet friends at playgrounds and ds is almost 6 feet tall!

 

The playgrounds that we used to visit in Dallas had nothing higher than my hand could reach.  Our best equipped (and maintained) local park here has a witch's hat rope climbing frame that I wouldn't dare climb.

 

L

[Incognito]

Margaret - No, it isn't a path, it's really fine to roam around.  My 3 day camping information is from my memory of the laws in Sweden.  IIRC, the laws are about "allmansratt" or "every person's right" to be able to enjoy the country of Sweden.  So rich people aren't the only people who can walk in a field.  From having spent time in Europe, it makes more sense than it did when I first got there.  Everything is owned by someone there.  It isn't like there are many giant tracts of land for joe Swede to go camp in (like the national forests in the US).  I'm way oversimplifying, and probably confusing it a bit, but as an example - I was at a school in rural Sweden.  We would walk around in the forests nearby.  All of that forest was owned by one or another person.  If the laws hadn't existed, we could only have walked down the road to and from town.  The forests being available was a real benefit to everyone.  We didn't leave crap there, we just went on walks.  Sometimes a couple of friends would go find a place and camp a night.

 

Here is a wiki about it.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

 

[Lady Florida.]

eta: I don't understand why people are getting all up in arms about laws in *other countries* that have worked well for a long, long time. If you don't like it, then don't move there. There is no problem to solve here.

I agree, and these are democratic countries too.

[Mbelle]

I have been in countries that have the free roaming.  It works fine and was fun!  I was an au par for 3 months in Sweden.  I enjoyed my time there.

Right now I live in a place that has taken on the "live, work, play" idea.  Lot's of sidewalks for walking were put in.   At first I thought it was awesome, now I'm not so crazy about it.  Many people walk by my home everyday.  Most of them don't live here. ( I know everyone on my street so actually I know that 99% of the people walking by don't live here.)  A lot of them are extremely annoying, rude and just plain disrespectful. (Especially the 5AM  weekend runners/walkers catching up with their best friends gabbing at the top of their voice. ugh!)  It is a fairly dense population though and I live in an cute old area and people just can't seem to help themselves.  I think it might not work so well in some places, and I can understand why it might be annoying here to have the free roam. 

[Laura Corin]

Oh, and if you want to go for a walk on the Queen's Balmoral Estate, you are free to do so.  A friend was walking up a mountain on the estate and bumped into Prince Charles (ETA - in a kilt) and his Bobbies coming the other way.  They all said 'Hello' and went on their ways.

 

L

[TeacherZee]

Information on the Swedish right of way in English http://www.naturvardsverket.se/Om-Naturvardsverket/Publikationer/ISBN/8500/978-91-620-8522-3/

 

You are allowed to camp here without the permission of the land owner for one night with up to three tents. More tents and more nights you need the permission of the land owners. The main rule is to leave the place as you found it.

 

Most kids learn this from an early age as most go to subsidized preschools that use nature as part of their curriculum. Seeing a line of little kids in yellow vests heading out to the woods is common place and something most of us remember with great fondness.