How much academic study time per day for future engineer K-8 kids?

[marlowefamily]

First year home schooling two boys (3rd and 5th grade), and it's mostly going well - I've been a little aggressive in deciding the minimum amount of material I want them to cover (latin, writing, history, geography, and extensive language in addition to their own interests in science and math).  Six weeks in and we're not really behind, but we'll be lucky to get everything done within the full calendar year and the kids are starting to ask that I make more time in the day available for their own interests.

 

The 5th grader was pulled out of public school late and has several educational gaps I'm trying to get him caught up on...I'm currently asking him for 5hrs/academics per day.  He's OK for the first 3hrs/day, but rushes his work in the last two hours.

 

The third grader is very self motivated and an independent learner -- I'm sure he thinks he can teach himself everything he needs.  Maybe he is right, but I still want him to complete the formal education program I've designed and get him ahead in a few areas.  I've scheduled 4hrs/day, but have been settling for 3.5hrs occasionally.

 

For aggressive home schooling parents of other engineering minded students, how many hours/day do you find reasonable for formal academics during the K-8 years?

[Farrar]

Different people have different goals, but we probably spent an average of 4 hours a day on academics in third grade.  We'll do a similar number this year for fourth grade.

 

If one wanted to encourage engineering, I would consider time for self-direct projects with Lego robotics, Arduino, Scratch, etc. equally important to academic time.

[Barb_]

Future engineer? In k-8, Put Math, Science, and (less obvious) communication skills first. But mostly Math. Tons and tons of Math from all angles. Then give plenty of free time and materials. Legos, knex, paper airplanes, Lincoln logs. Google physics and engineering apps and let them have at it. A future engineer will benefit greatly from years of fine motor practice and the intuitive understanding of physics concepts that can only be gained by hands-on experience. But mostly math. It's the math weeder classes that keep engineering students from meeting their goals. My 19yo's boyfriend lost his scholarship because of his weeder math courses. Both my college students say the same thing. If you don't have a profound understanding of k-6 Math as well as Algebra I and II, you can forget about making it through the Math sequence required for engineering.

[Sarah CB]

My daughter just started her engineering program.  We homeschooled nearly all the way; she ended up doing three semesters at public school.

 

I honestly don't remember how much time she was spending in grade 5 - probably about five hours a day.  We began using TOG that year and that has a heavy workload (she did dialectic level).  Plus, she was doing Latin, French, Italian as well as grammar, writing, math and science.  She was a very efficient worker - my grade 8 ds is much less efficient.  

 

I think it's kind of funny that she ended up in engineering...  I'm more of a reader/writer who loves history.  Our homeschooling years were highly language focused - including learning other languages.  Science was my weakest subject and I didn't even enjoy teaching it.  She really didn't do anything fantastic for science until grade 10 when she did a great online course and then wrote her provincial exam for science 10.  She did most of her humanities at home for grades 10 - 12, but she started doing a bunch of sciences and math in school - she ended up with bio 11, chem 11, chem 12, physics 11, phsyics 12, pre-calc 11 and 12 and calc 12.  Then she applied to university and was accepted into all 4 engineering programs she applied to.

 

All that to say that I don't know that the time she spent on academics was really paving the way for engineering...  We did have a strong math focus.  She used Singapore from K - 10.  I had a math lab set up in the homeschool room.  We read math story books and talked about math a lot.  But no real science.  

 

I've lightened up a little with the boys simply because I'm not sure I spent the right time on the right things with dd.  

[Barb_]

[quote name="Sarah CB" post="5182029" timestamp="

 

I with the boys simply because I'm not sure I spent the right time on the right things with dd.

 

I loved your story, Sarah. My third daughter just announced she wants to take some physics and engineering courses at the community college next year. I'm blown away because she was the writer and the artist. She went out of her way to avoid anything her older sisters were interested in. I guess she got over it. She took an Conceptual Physics course last year and was surprised at how it excited her, I think. So I'm suddenly scrambling to change course with her, but it's exciting.

 

I'm happy to hear you agree that a lot of formal science before high school really isn't necessary, even for future science majors. I like myth busters, Bill Nye, Schlessinger, Magic School Bus, the popular Mechanics show, Disney Engineering, etc.

 

Lastly, isn't it funny how the more experience you have, the more you second guess yourself?

[8filltheheart]

Our oldest is a chemical engineer. Our 12th grader is planning on majoring in theoretical or astrophysics.

 

First, I wanted to encourage you to not worry about gaps. Really, I don't believe gaps are an issue bc the focus in elementary is really be skills--strong foundational math, writing, reading skills should be the main objectives. It should not be that difficult to bring a good student up to speed......it doesnt take equivalency in time with older kids. I personally would wait on the for lang and Latin until you get into a rhythm and have really accomplished mastery in those foundational skills.

 

My kids pursue science topics that interest them. (No tests, no textbooks, etc until high school credit) Math is more important than science, if you have to make a scale of priorities.

 

But the simple answer to your question, regardless of their future career goals, is approx 1 hr per grade level, so around3 for,3rd and5 for 5th.

[marlowefamily]

Thanks for all the replies!  I feel better knowing that my original time estimates were not too far off. 

 

 

I'll just have to hope then that I didn't overload too far with the general 5th grade curriculum:

 

 

First Form Latin (Online via memoria press)
Greek Language, very light introduction (starting with Greek Alphabet Code Cracker)

US and World Geography, Civics (Kolbe + Memoria Press books + man in the states books)
Story of the World (Ancient Civilizations)
Greek History - Introduction, Famous Men (Memoria Press + Kolbe Supplements)

Singapore Math - 5th grade (txt, wb, intensive practice, sprints) + khan academy videos/practice as needed

Life and Earth Science w/ Home Lab (Harcourt, Amscope Microscope w/ USB Camera)

Botany (apologia) + Gardening
Introduction to Philosophy and Logic (includes online sessions from http://www.greatbooksacademy.org)

English Grammar (Primarily Voyages in English + Memoria Press workbooks)
Introductory Writing and Composition (Mainly writing strands)
Cursive and Penmanship (Mainly various cursive workbooks and writing letters)
Phonics, Vocabulary, and Spelling (Kolbe Curriculum)
Reading, Dictation, and Literature (4th-6th grade), (Kolbe Curriculum)

Catholic Religious Studies (Kolbe Curriculum)

Physical Education (Karate/Fencing/Competitive Swim Team/Wii Fit/Bowling)

Lego Robotics (First Lego League)
Art and Music (Primarily Saxophone)

[8filltheheart]

Thanks for all the replies! I feel better knowing that my original time estimates were not too far off.

 

 

I'll just have to hope then that I didn't overload too far with the general 5th grade curriculum:

 

 

First Form Latin (Online via memoria press)

Greek Language, very light introduction (starting with Greek Alphabet Code Cracker)

 

US and World Geography, Civics (Kolbe + Memoria Press books + man in the states books)

Story of the World (Ancient Civilizations)

Greek History - Introduction, Famous Men (Memoria Press + Kolbe Supplements)

 

Singapore Math - 5th grade (txt, wb, intensive practice, sprints) + khan academy videos/practice as needed

 

Life and Earth Science w/ Home Lab (Harcourt, Amscope Microscope w/ USB Camera)

Botany (apologia) + Gardening

Introduction to Philosophy and Logic (includes online sessions from http://www.greatbooksacademy.org)

 

English Grammar (Primarily Voyages in English + Memoria Press workbooks)

Introductory Writing and Composition (Mainly writing strands)

Cursive and Penmanship (Mainly various cursive workbooks and writing letters)

Phonics, Vocabulary, and Spelling (Kolbe Curriculum)

Reading, Dictation, and Literature (4th-6th grade), (Kolbe Curriculum)

 

Catholic Religious Studies (Kolbe Curriculum)

 

Physical Education (Karate/Fencing/Competitive Swim Team/Wii Fit/Bowling)

 

Lego Robotics (First Lego League)

Art and Music (Primarily Saxophone)

Take my comments fwiw, bc my educational philosophy is that going deep and spending time in contemplation exceeds a fast-paced knowledge- based education.

 

In our family, that amt of material could never be covered in 5 hrs. That amt of material could not be covered and make long-term connections. It would be rushed through to be completed and forgotten just as quickly. Fewer things studied means higher quality input/output/development skills.

 

A typical 5th graders' day in our school would resemble something like this

 

Math: 1 hr

Science: 45 mins of reading a non-fiction trade book, not a textbook

English: grammar, spelling about 10 mis each, writing.....across curriculum typically in science and history. They research a topic in- depth they are currently studying and spend a week gathering notes, outlining, and writing their report on the topic. Writing takes about 1 hr per day.

History: about 45 mins

Literature: about 30-45 mins per day

Religion: about 15 mins

Latin: about 30 mins

 

That is the most my 5th graders can handle.

[lmrich]

Looking at your day, you have too much history. I prefer to have deeper focus on one time period. A student needs time to think once the book is closed. Also your day with engineering type kids should be heavy with projects. Allow them time to dive deep into a project so they gain the experience of time management, focusing on a goal, neatness, organization, communication skills etc... Just my thoughts

[zoo_keeper]

Wow, I don't know if I'm counting correctly, but does your 5th grader have 16 books/workbooks facing him when he sits down?  That seems like an awful lot.  For comparison, my 4th grader typically has 9.  Her stack is outlined below... (And for a bit of background, I'm a university professor in a STEM related field, so I'm all about those subjects, especially math.)

 

Logic/Critical Thinking: 1 wb page, something fun from Critical Thinking Co/Prufrock Press/Mindware

Math: 2 pages ea from 2 wbs, rotating between SM IP, SM CWP, BA, and MM

Handwriting: 1 page from Getty Dubay or Character Italics

Grammar: 1 page from KISS (sometimes only 1/2 page, if they analyze 1/2 of the sentences correctly we move on)

Writing: length varies, but we rotate between Logos' Imitations in Writing and CAP's W&R

Latin: 2 pages from SSL2

Spanish: 2 pages from The Fun Spanish

History or Science: 1 lesson from either Story of Western Civilization or McHenry's The Elements

 

We also do outside clubs/lessons and fill in with additional curricula in the evening/car (e.g., SOTW audiobooks, LOF and MCT Town and literature selections at bedtime, math games whenever, extra stuff on computers if they're interested, etc.).  But when they sit down, their stacks aren't overwhelming (at least from my perspective, if you ask them their answers may vary!).

[Sarah CB]

 

Lastly, isn't it funny how the more experience you have, the more you second guess yourself?

 

I know way less now than I did when dd was in grade 2!

[Sarah CB]

Sarah -- I'm fascinated by your math lab set up. Could you describe it?

 

To the original poster: Our 5th grade son spends about 5 hours a day with academics (5 days a week). While he is so far not particularly interested in engineering, he is intensely interested in art and natural science. He studies both Spanish and Latin as well.

 

I actually blogged about it a couple of times.  Here are the links:

 

http://fanningflame.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/the-new-and-improved-math-lab/

 

http://fanningflame.wordpress.com/2007/09/27/creating-a-math-lab/ 

 

Things morphed a little to gear it to higher grade levels, but I still don't think we used it much past 5th or 6th grade.  I lost my homeschool room two years ago (turned it into dd's bedroom) so the math lab was dismantled.  

[SkateLeft]

I have a homeschool graduate that's majoring in chemical engineering. My middle two will likely pursue STEM majors also.

 

In 3rd-5th, I'd say they probably did about 4 - 4.5 hours a day. But, it's less about the hours and more about how they spend that time. While we enjoy history, it's not the core of our curriculum the way that it is for some homeschoolers. There are lots of cool educational ideas out there, but not everything needs to be a formal part of the school day. Even science as an academic subject isn't as important as having a strong math background and a spirit of inquiry. In addition to their math and science curricula, my kids spend a lot of "playing" with math and science.

[SilverMoon]

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Edited July 10, 2022 by SilverMoon

[marlowefamily]

K -- Well, thanks everyone for the feedback and honestly I had decided to start with an aggressive schedule and then whittle it down to what the kids could handle. My current plan is also to have three semesters of ~13-15 weeks with 2-3 week breaks or vacations in between. We're also hoping to do a bunch of stuff through disney vacation club during some of the breaks and let the kids help with choosing destinations as rewards for their good work throughout the year (still cheaper than private school and us parents need our own breaks from home schooling).

 

As for details and going too broad versus going deep:

- The intention was that the lowest priority course was the greek language and we'd drop that if we needed to

- Not all subjects are performed each day, the only consistent subjects are math and language which get a combined 2-3hrs every weekday.  Other items may only be touched 2-3 times/week.

- The greek history is more of a deep dive focus within ancient history than a totally separate course, even memoria press only offers it as a semester course.  This is the history course for Kolbe, and we added SOTW to it.

- Kolbe also requests that geography be its own course, I've fleshed it out by adding some civics

- We're just starting the botany science and if needed we'll spread it across two years and/or merge it with the other science course, I'm still becoming familiar with it.

- Mostly my goal is to have the kids be very solid in language and math, and all other subjects are supposed to just encourage that.

- The introductory writing course is very mild..we started with writing strands 3 and we're only doing one chapter/week.  Kolbe originally recommended Classical Composition (fables) and I've pushed that off to a later year.

[Crimson Wife]

I would do a "loop" schedule on the non-core subjects and go year-round. Frankly I wouldn't bother with Greek for a future STEM student and even Latin you might want to consider using just a roots program rather than learning the full language (heresy I know on a classical ed board!)

 

I would also ditch the PS science text and go for something "meatier". Ellen McHenry's science programs are awesome, and I really like Mr. Q's Advanced Chemistry so far (just be aware that it requires pre-algebra/early algebra 1 math skills). Suchocki's "Conceptual Chemistry" and Hewitt's "Conceptual Physics" are accessible to bright middle school students.

 

If there is a homeschool team near you participating in the elementary division of Science Olympiad that would be a fantastic extracurricular activity for your kids.

[8filltheheart]

for a future STEM student and even Latin you might want to consider using just a roots program rather than learning the full language (heresy I know on a classical ed board!)

 

 

My very STEM oriented ds LOVES Latin.   Seriously.   He loves the logic of it.   He is definitely not like his sister who simply loves and appreciates language, but he sees beauty and genius in Latin.   French, otoh, he detests.  ;)

 

But, that said, if I were a new homeschooler adjusting from ps to homeschool, I would hold off on any foreign language for another yr.   Homeschooling is a huge adjustment.  Doing too much can lead to burn-out for both parent and child.  

 

[happycc]

I have several thoughts:

 

1)It may seem like a lot and it is when you do all of it in one sitting. Be sure to break it down during the day with plenty of breaks such as adding chores or other activities such as helping out a younger sibling or gardening. 

 

I, too, have a very heavy load during the day and need to break the day up a lot for the kids. Chores are important. Plenty of college students go to college clueless and struggle with just basic survival skills of cooking for themselves or even doing their own laundry. Just teaching them the skills is not enough. They need to build a routine with it too and that will prepare them for time management in the future when they are out of the house. A lot of college students go off to college and take a nice full load of classes not realizing that about 1/4 of their time might be utilized for basic living activities rather than just for studying or whatever else. First semester/quarter comes and they are overwhelmed and then the bad grades come rolling around. 

 

2) I agree that maybe holding back a foreign language during the first year after pulling out from public school would be a better idea. I had to pull three out 3 years ago around the same age as yours and I remember that the first year was tough. 

 

3) I recommend Hands On Algebra and/or Dragon Box too. 

 

4) Check out this resource and see if there is one in your area and if not perhaps you can help start one: 

 

 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/832476585/hacker-scouts-oakland-lab

 

www.hacker-scouts.org

 

 

5) For art I recommend this technical drawing programs:

 

http://www.timberdoodle.com/Complete_A_Sketch_Vision_Dexterity_Focus_p/108-594.htm

 

http://www.timberdoodle.com/Practical_Drafting_p/108-208.htm

 

 

http://www.sixbranches.com/CAS01.htm --better website from the above. More choices. 

 

6) I agree with Crimson Wife in regards to the science textbook choice. Drop it and definitely pick something meatier. If you must go through the textbook way, then move up a grade level or two. Be sure to do the science experiments. The hands on experiments will give your kids some hands on understanding of visual/spatial stuff needed to engineer stuff. 

 

7) Depending where you live, head to a Maker's Faire. New York is right around the corner and San Mateo, CA is in the spring I believe. 

 

 

8) Pare down history a bit. It is too much. If you really want more history, study architecture. We have the architecture book from K12 and it is really good. Then you have some history when they are talking about the engineering of certain buildings. 

 

9) Add in typing. Very important for the future. Engineers work on computers a lot nowadays. 

 

10) I think there needs to be some critical thinking/logic stuff in there as well.