Discovering Mathematics is a bust for dd. Help!

[dirty ethel rackham]

DD is an 8th grader who just finished Primary Mathematics 6B this summer.  I used Singapore with all my kids.  My boys whipped through PM, and started with NEM, but they got bogged down in it.  So, we switched to AoPS.  Dd is not at "mathy" as her brothers so she took longer to finish PM, but she did get it and is solid.  I really don't think she is AoPS material and since we didn't like NEM as much, I thought we'd go to Discovering Mathematics - another Singapore Math product that I considered to be "NEM light."  Well, it is not going well.  Actually, it is a disaster.  We are discovering huge holes in the teaching - i.e. only a rudimentary introduction to exponents and then expecting them to figure out how to manipulate them on their own.  The teacher's manual is a waste.  They should just call it a solutions manual and be done.  There was nothing in there to clue me in that I should have explicitly taught exponent manipulation before assigning the exercise.  So, instead of having me review every single problem before assigning an exercise to make sure she has the knowledge needed (and to prevent tears and gnashing of teeth), I am chucking it. 

 

So, what should I try instead.  I want a good, solid grounding in math.  She is interested in Psychology or other "soft sciences", so she will need decent math skills, but probably not nearly as much as her more hard science oriented brothers.  (So, no Teaching Textbooks or anything like that.)  I majored in Math in college, but I am finding that having children has killed too many brain cells or Singapore's problems are so much more intense, that I have trouble with some of the harder problems.    I need a decent teacher's manual with any program that I choose plus full solutions manuals.  My boys taught themselves and then took AoPS classes so I didn't keep up with them. 

 

Any guidance here? 

[SoCal Sandra]

Are you looking for an integrated program, ( SPM and DM are integrated), or do you want to switch her to the traditional U.S. math sequence? If the latter, have you looked at Chalk Dust Algebra? The DVD lectures give extremely thorough explanations.

[amsunshine]

I do agree the TM for Discovering Mathematics is more of a solutions manual. However, I'm confused by what you are saying about exponents. My oldest completed 7A and 7B last year, and from what I recall, DM level 7 doesn't really do much, if anything, with exponents. They don't start in with exponents until level 8. Or are you talking about the prime factorization sections in chapter 1 of 7A? We'll be going through level 7 again with my younger dd this year.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I do agree the TM for Discovering Mathematics is more of a solutions manual. However, I'm confused by what you are saying about exponents. My oldest completed 7A and 7B last year, and from what I recall, DM level 7 doesn't really do much, if anything, with exponents. They don't start in with exponents until level 8. Or are you talking about the prime factorization sections in chapter 1 of 7A? We'll be going through level 7 again with my younger dd this year.

Yes.  That is it.  They seemed to expect her to be able to manipulate exponents without any explicit teaching. (write 11^5 /11^3 in a single number with exponential notation.)  This brought on about 40 minutes of tears.  There were several things in the exercises in the book that had her upset and confused because we hadn't run into them before and there was only a very basic introduction to them before.  She had to make inferences but she needed a couple more intermediate steps.  She needed more explicit teaching.  We have a lot to do this year and I don't have time for tears in math. 

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

Are you looking for an integrated program, ( SPM and DM are integrated), or do you want to switch her to the traditional U.S. math sequence? If the latter, have you looked at Chalk Dust Algebra? The DVD lectures give extremely thorough explanations.

 

I am not tied to the integrated math approach.  I don't think we need a DVD course.  I can explain things to her. I just need something that doesn't require such large leaps in understanding.  She needs more steps in between that DM seems to provide. 

 

Lial's

What do you recommend?  I am not that familiar with their product line and where she should start. 

[amsunshine]

Yes.  That is it.  They seemed to expect her to be able to manipulate exponents without any explicit teaching. (write 11^5 /11^3 in a single number with exponential notation.)  This brought on about 40 minutes of tears.  There were several things in the exercises in the book that had her upset and confused because we hadn't run into them before and there was only a very basic introduction to them before.  She had to make inferences but she needed a couple more intermediate steps.  She needed more explicit teaching.  We have a lot to do this year and I don't have time for tears in math.

Oh, ok. For what it's worth, the first chapter seemed to be the most challenging for my dd. The part you are referring to didn't give us any problems, but it was definitely challenging. You might want to try chapter 2 before you throw in the towel!

[wapiti]

I agree - if exponents might be the only issue, rather than abandoning ship, I'd pull from somewhere else on the topic (e.g., check out the aops videos and find a few exercises someplace) and then keep going with DM (disclaimer: I am unfamiliar with DM).

 

If you absolutely want to change, my favorite prealgebra (besides aops) is Dolciani's Prealgebra, an Accelerated Course.  Answers to odds are in the back.  (I have the TM - not useful beyond answers to the evens, which you wouldn't need because there are plenty of problems).  Very straightforward.  Alternatively, if she's ready for algebra, you might consider Jacobs, which starts off gently.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Well, there were several things I have already had to look up myself to teach her because they were things I was unsure of.  I need something that will be less planning work for me.  We will have to at least work through Chapter 2 since we don't have anything else on hand except for Art of Problem Solving. 

[Crimson Wife]

Yes.  That is it.  They seemed to expect her to be able to manipulate exponents without any explicit teaching. (write 11^5 /11^3 in a single number with exponential notation.)  This brought on about 40 minutes of tears.  There were several things in the exercises in the book that had her upset and confused because we hadn't run into them before and there was only a very basic introduction to them before.  She had to make inferences but she needed a couple more intermediate steps.  She needed more explicit teaching.  We have a lot to do this year and I don't have time for tears in math.

I don't specifically remember that problem, but the way I would handle difficulty with that is to ask the child to write out the expanded forms and then cancel out the ones that occur in both the numerator and denominator. So (11 x 11 x 11 x 11 x 11)/(11 x 11 x 11). Cross off three 11's on the top and three on the bottom so the student is left with 11 x 11 or 11^2.

[Crimson Wife]

DM does have some pretty tricky problems and with the lack of "handholding" in the TM, I'm not sure how far we'll get in the series. I feel confident in my ability to teach algebra 1 and geometry but am not sure about the algebra 2 topics in DM 3. I'm going to cross that bridge when we get to it.

[Vida Winter]

We have been at DM for two weeks and I know what you're talking about. But there is still a lot that I like about the program -- it is challenging -- the first time I have ever seen tough problems for least common multiple! We are planning on sticking with it. I have my dd make a fresh notebook page entry for each new concept, explaining the concept and giving an example. This is before any problems are attempted. We go over difficult problems together at the end of each problem set. The ones that seem to be tripping dd up are the brainworks problems at the end of each problem set. She works in two 45-minute math sessions, as some have suggested on these forums. Splitting it up like that has helped.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I don't specifically remember that problem, but the way I would handle difficulty with that is to ask the child to write out the expanded forms and then cancel out the ones that occur in both the numerator and denominator. So (11 x 11 x 11 x 11 x 11)/(11 x 11 x 11). Cross off three 11's on the top and three on the bottom so the student is left with 11 x 11 or 11^2.

 

Yes, I knew how to teach it to her.  The problem was that this was the 4th thing in 2 lessons that I didn't know I needed to teach her before setting her loose on the exercises.  I don't want a program where I have to sit with her for every single exercise and wait until she is in tears because she doesn't understand something before I know that I need to teach it to her.  I need something where these are in the lessons, not left to be discovered on her own.  She is not that type of student.  I don't want something dummed down, but something with fewer leaps. 

[freerange]

Well, there were several things I have already had to look up myself to teach her because they were things I was unsure of. I need something that will be less planning work for me. We will have to at least work through Chapter 2 since we don't have anything else on hand except for Art of Problem Solving.

You could try MEP. Since it's all available online as PDFs you could start right away. Year 7 (which is equivalent to DM book 1) upwards are written to the student with more instruction/explanation than the earlier years, although there are also materials for the teacher.

[amsunshine]

Yes, I knew how to teach it to her.  The problem was that this was the 4th thing in 2 lessons that I didn't know I needed to teach her before setting her loose on the exercises.  I don't want a program where I have to sit with her for every single exercise and wait until she is in tears because she doesn't understand something before I know that I need to teach it to her.  I need something where these are in the lessons, not left to be discovered on her own.  She is not that type of student.  I don't want something dummed down, but something with fewer leaps. 

 

In all fairness, the problem you are talking about was a BrainWorks problem.  The BrainWorks sections are, indeed, more difficult than the other sections, and are supposed to challenge the student to make conceptual leaps.  For those problems, you could just not assign them, or try to work through them together.  My dd and I typically work through those sections together.

[Crimson Wife]

BrainWorks problems are indeed very tricky. There is one in 7B that even my Mr. Quant Jock DH had no clue how to solve even after working at it for over an hour AND being given the final answer to try to "reverse engineer" the intermediate steps. When I showed him the full solution in the TM, he could follow along with what they were doing but said that never in a million years would he have come up with it on his own.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Ok, I guess I feel better about that.  I do with there was more explanation about how to use these different sections.  I do with there was a real teacher's manual, not just a solutions manual. 

[amsunshine]

Ok, I guess I feel better about that.  I do with there was more explanation about how to use these different sections.  I do with there was a real teacher's manual, not just a solutions manual. 

I'm totally with you, there!!  It would really be nice to have a more fleshed out TM.  I love the program, because the problems are so well-done.  But a good TM would definitely be helpful. 

[Vida Winter]

Ok, I guess I feel better about that.  I do with there was more explanation about how to use these different sections.  I do with there was a real teacher's manual, not just a solutions manual. 

 

Agreeing here too about the TM. The student text explains new concepts very well. Try looking that over and discussing it before any problems are attempted. Maybe you could ask your daughter to give a problem a try and see if there is *anything* she can figure out about it and write that down (these will likely be the brainworks problems), and then call you over if she is still stumped. Call it "SAT practice" and solve those together.

[Ali in OR]

We had a rocky start to DM 1 last year. I asked dd several times if she wanted to switch to Dolciani Pre Alg which would have been a lot easier and a lot more straight-forward, but she was willing to keep at it and it did get easier for her. Things we eventually figured out for our approach:

1) We read the text together with me working out examples. I need to make sure she does a "try it" (these are after each example) and not assume she "got it" from the example.

2) Many of the exercise sets are too long. When there are 8 subparts to each problem for example, I often assign "the left column".

3) Sometimes we'll work a few homework problems together (sometimes were too tired after going through all of the examples).

4) Dd needed/needs lots of guidance on homework "best practices". She has gotten better at writing down more and not just doing it all in her head. We are still working on getting her to check each problem in the back of the book before she goes on to the next problem so she can catch mistakes and not repeat them.

5) She's doing great at the word problems. The early skills problems are often harder. I may assign just one brainwork or we may go through them together.

6) We do the workbook after the textbook for more practice. I stopped doing the challenging problems and applied problems sections in the workbook--we were taking too long on each chapter and those problems are pretty tough.

7) The geometry sections were a lot easier for dd. I do think the beginning of the book was the hardest.

8) This year she's also doing a bit from Horizons Algebra each day to reinforce basic algebra skills. I like that these are being reviewed, and I can appreciate how much more Singapore asks from students. We stick with it because I think she's getting a great math education. Not easy. Definitely high expectations for what students should be able to do. Definitely takes a lot of Mom time, but I'm a former math teacher and I enjoy it.

 

If we were to switch last year, Dolciani Pre Alg was our back-up choice (it was one of 4 programs we looked at before choosing DM).

[Haiku]

I second the suggestion of Dolciani Pre-Algebra. My dd really likes it, and I am very pleased with the straightforward instruction. For algebra we will be using Math Without Borders video instruction for Foerster's algebra book.

[SophiaH]

DM definitely is a step up from PM, but with some flexibility in assigning the problems, it's become more doable. And the second chapter has been (seemed?) easier than the first chapter. We don't worry about the BrainWorks problems so much. Dd is not required to do them anymore, so now they've become a challenge for her to try to do on her own. Sometimes she and her dad (a HS math teacher) will work through them together. In the workbook, the plan is for her to spend just two days working through some of the problems, mostly from the further practice and challenging sections. I also read the textbook through with her thoroughly, "teaching" it along the way on a white board, having her do all the Try It! Problems. I probably go overboard on the time spent on reading the text, but I want to make sure she's really got it to try to minimize errors in her independent work (getting corrections done has been a frustration for us in the past). I'm going to add in some Khan videos for a different way of looking at it, too. But boy, I definitely feel like I'm learning it all over again (and better!).