nmoira Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Soylent Green is people! I've heard that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Soylent Green is people! :ack2: Yes, it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Oh please. There is no reasonable way to discuss the unreasonable. Not all ideas have equal merit or merit debate. If people buy into extremely fringe conspiracy theories, be it left or right wing, then they need to have a thick enough skin for humor. I make the same jokes about and to my father (leftwing conspiracy theorist in the extreme) and he see's it as the humor it is, not a lowering of the level of discourse. Without humor in the face of the offensive and absurd, the world a pretty bleak place. Most of the posters in this thread have been fairly reasonable. True, not all ideas have equal merit but you were insulting the people, not the ideas. I made no argument that humor had to be banished, I simply didn't see much in your comment that was funny. So what if you make the same jokes with your father? We can often get away with stuff in our families that would be rude to the wider community. There are real intellectual traps and pitfalls involved in accepting conspiracy theories and smart, reasonable, sane people can fall victim to them. It's generally not a lack of intelligence that sucks them in, it's a veneer of plausible and house-of-cards logic that a lot of people don't quite understand how to question. Since a lot of folks who might buy into those ideas aren't generally full blown evangelists sporting wild hair and hosting "science" shows on alien visitations then they can often be informed about the tricks being played on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Actually that reminds me.....when they supposedly caught, killed and disposed of Bin Laden...things just didn't add up. Why did we not see more evidence of it? Why was his body thrown into the sea so quickly? Since when did the American government and military care so much about Bin Laden's spiritual beliefs that they wanted to honour the rites of them so swiftly? Shouldn't there have been some sort of autopsy or some sort of fanfare hailing their success first? Something weird there..... Actually there was a debate on whether the burial at sea violated Islamic burial traditions., so I wouldn't read that as the military honoring his spiritual beliefs. Why would they need an autopsy? What pictures could be provided that wouldn't be deemed fakes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Actually there was a debate on whether the burial at sea violated Islamic burial traditions., so I wouldn't read that as the military honoring his spiritual beliefs. Why would they need an autopsy? What pictures could be provided that wouldn't be deemed fakes? Or indeed evidence of any kind? What would be satisfactory evidence that Bin Laden is dead, and was killed more or less as per the official story? Or the moon landing real? Or that Soylent Green is only a movie? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I will consider everything but leave the jury out mostmes. We have so little ability to determine what is true and what isn't. .... So yes, I do believe in conspiracy theories BUT I think when listening to people who are into them you always need to keep your thinking hat on and your eyes wide open. Some of them get so deep into it that they see conspiracies everywhere and in everything. Also in this day and age when it is hard for the average layman to figure out fact from fiction on the internet (due to computer technology) we have to approach anything controversial with at least some degree of skepticism. Are you the average layman? Do you think it's hard for you to distinguish fact from fiction on the internet? If it is and you recognize that, are you working to address that lack of knowledge that keeps you limited in finding the truth or are you refusing to? The problem with appealing to ignorance in defense of a position is that the answer is always and simply, to not be ignorant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Actually that reminds me.....when they supposedly caught, killed and disposed of Bin Laden...things just didn't add up. Why did we not see more evidence of it? Why was his body thrown into the sea so quickly? Since when did the American government and military care so much about Bin Laden's spiritual beliefs that they wanted to honour the rites of them so swiftly? Shouldn't there have been some sort of autopsy or some sort of fanfare hailing their success first? Something weird there..... Why do your shoulds have any weight? The problem with shoulds is that they can be manufactured to cast doubt whatever the circumstances. Asking what should have been done isn't proof of anything. It's like asking where the proof is that unicorns don't exist and declaring, because there is none, that they might therefore exist. Is there actual evidence, real tangible evidence, that something else happened other then what the government claimed? I'd not, there's nothing weird. Or there's something weird but only in the sense that every event has some weirdness to it that could be tortured into a bit of doubt I'd we put enough effort into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Why do your shoulds have any weight? The problem with shoulds is that they can be manufactured to cast doubt whatever the circumstances. Asking what should have been done isn't proof of anything. It's like asking where the proof is that unicorns don't exist and declaring, because there is none, that they might therefore exist. Is there actual evidence, real tangible evidence, that something else happened other then what the government claimed? I'd not, there's nothing weird. Or there's something weird but only in the sense that every event has some weirdness to it that could be tortured into a bit of doubt I'd we put enough effort into it. ^^^^This. I am often amazed at how many 9/11 Truthers turned themselves into junior engineers based on what they read on the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahrazad Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Actually that reminds me.....when they supposedly caught, killed and disposed of Bin Laden...things just didn't add up. Why did we not see more evidence of it? Why was his body thrown into the sea so quickly? Since when did the American government and military care so much about Bin Laden's spiritual beliefs that they wanted to honour the rites of them so swiftly? Shouldn't there have been some sort of autopsy or some sort of fanfare hailing their success first? Something weird there..... There were multiple reasons for him to be buried at sea: a burial at sea prevented any sort of shrine or memorial being erected for him by followers as well as any sort of defacement of his grave and Muslims require a speedy burial so there was a time issue regarding that. I think it makes sense that they would respect spiritual beliefs in that context because regardless of who the person is, many (not all, but I'd say a lot) humans would still grant that person a proper disposal of their body after they're dead. Also, they were hoping to prevent any bad feelings within the Muslim community (even those who disowned him) by disrespecting the body and as such, tried to dispose of the body in a way that would not offend and seem respectful while also not opening up the opportunity of having his burial place accessible to others. Also, I read that they did offer his body to Saudi Arabia (where he was born) and they refused it as they did not want him buried in their country. I don't think any of the Muslim countries wanted to take him. Actually there was a debate on whether the burial at sea violated Islamic burial traditions., so I wouldn't read that as the military honoring his spiritual beliefs. Why would they need an autopsy? What pictures could be provided that wouldn't be deemed fakes? My understanding was that the government consulted some prominent Muslim religious leaders in the US (though I could be mistaken) about whether it would be acceptable or the lesser of 2 evils. The situation was a special circumstance given his infamy and the fact that burial in a place that people could find would be problematic (either for veneration or grave vandalism). True, I don't know that they did the Islamic funeral prayer over him (maybe they had a Muslim government person do it, I really don't know) but I also think in that case they were limited with what they could do because no one in the community wanted much to do with the proceedings given who it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I am often amazed at how many 9/11 Truthers turned themselves into junior engineers based on what they read on the internet. And none of their competing theories are in the least compatible. The only thing they have in common is a dismissal of the "official" story. I heard a podcast not long ago featuring a woman who was an eye witness to the 7/7 subway bombing and its immediate aftermath (I don't recall the extent of her own injuries). The vitriol directed at her by 7/7 truthers is staggering. There is nothing she could ever say that would make them believe she was legit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 And none of their competing theories are in the least compatible. The only thing they have in common is a dismissal of the "official" story. I heard a podcast not long ago featuring a woman who was an eye witness to the 7/7 subway bombing and its immediate aftermath (I don't recall the extent of her own injuries). The vitriol directed at her by 7/7 truthers is staggering. There is nothing she could ever say that would make them believe she was legit. Bill Maher telling off 9/11 truthers in his studio is one of my favorite things. Ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Yes to both answers. His body was potentially a very dangerous political prop. It needed to be handled very carefully. I think how it was done was probably the best solution given the choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidArchuletaFan Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Are you the average layman? Do you think it's hard for you to distinguish fact from fiction on the internet? If it is and you recognize that, are you working to address that lack of knowledge that keeps you limited in finding the truth or are you refusing to? The problem with appealing to ignorance in defense of a position is that the answer is always and simply, to not be ignorant. Yes, I do think I'm the average layman. I have no skills in analysing photographs for inconsistencies or military tactics in the middle east, of terrain and climate and weaponry or of ballistics, or aircraft engineering or bomb powder patterns or how to bring down a building in it's own footprint or, or, or.....the list could on and on. We're all laymen depending on the expertise of others. Yes, I could spend the rest of my life becoming expert in all these areas and then using my knowledge to analyse what information I can gather together and verify as being accurate.....but....why would I want to when I have limited capacity to do much about whatever results I might find and when I am busy trying to homeschool my children and raise my family and be a good wife, daughter, friend etc. We each have to choose how to spend our time in our lives, and while keeping my eyes wide open is something I am willing to do, chasing around conspiracy theories to the enth degree is something I am not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I just want to remind everyone that time spent discussing/educating/arguing with people who cling to such beliefs is time in your life that you will never get back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidArchuletaFan Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Why do your shoulds have any weight? The problem with shoulds is that they can be manufactured to cast doubt whatever the circumstances. Asking what should have been done isn't proof of anything. It's like asking where the proof is that unicorns don't exist and declaring, because there is none, that they might therefore exist. Is there actual evidence, real tangible evidence, that something else happened other then what the government claimed? I'd not, there's nothing weird. Or there's something weird but only in the sense that every event has some weirdness to it that could be tortured into a bit of doubt I'd we put enough effort into it. Of course the Why's don't hold any weight in terms of evidence for wrong doing. I never claimed they did. I also don't automatically think there was something under handed going on. But Bin Laden wasn't just some crazy gunman running down the street who got shot down and killed by policemen. He was supposedly the cause of an expensive, long standing war on terriorism, that involved people and organisations from all over the world, that cost people their lives and changed the face of society in how we live our lives. When someone has such a far reaching effect upon the world as Bin Laden did, I think it makes sense for the people to be provided more resolution than a few unverified facts and a quick disposal of his body. Maybe it was something as simple as the reasons people have been discussing here but it still doesn't add up to me. Going by how things of this nature are generally treated in western society, it doesn't follow pattern. But then....I'm not going to spend my life fretting over something I have no control over either. So ultimately, it's a moot point to me about what did or did not happen. It's just one of those things you go hmmmm over and then move on. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidArchuletaFan Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I just want to remind everyone that time spent discussing/educating/arguing with people who cling to such beliefs is time in your life that you will never get back. Lol...well I certainly agree about not wasting to much of my time over discussing things that are less important to me. So yep...I'm going to go spend my time on something that is important to me and that is to teach my kids to be analytical, critical thinkers who have their eyes wide open. Thanks for the reminder to get my day back on task red squirrel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Of course the Why's don't hold any weight in terms of evidence for wrong doing. I never claimed they did. I also don't automatically think there was something under handed going on. But Bin Laden wasn't just some crazy gunman running down the street who got shot down and killed by policemen. He was supposedly the cause of an expensive, long standing war on terriorism, that involved people and organisations from all over the world, that cost people their lives and changed the face of society in how we live our lives. When someone has such a far reaching effect upon the world as Bin Laden did, I think it makes sense for the people to be provided more resolution than a few unverified facts and a quick disposal of his body. Maybe it was something as simple as the reasons people have been discussing here but it still doesn't add up to me. Going by how things of this nature are generally treated in western society, it doesn't follow pattern. But then....I'm not going to spend my life fretting over something I have no control over either. So ultimately, it's a moot point to me about what did or did not happen. It's just one of those things you go hmmmm over and then move on. :-) Again, what exactly did you want/expect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidArchuletaFan Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Chocolatereign, maybe some DNA testing by various sources would have been a good place to start. But as I said in my previous comment, i'm not really into this topic enough to go on and on about it, so I'll bow out here, with the reiteration of my original post in this thread.....and that was...yes, I do believe that there are some rich and influential people/organisations in the world who try to manipulate things for their own greedy purposes but I don't think it is on some hugely organised, secret and long standing level. I also believe in being very cautious in believing conspiracy theories. My interest is simply in trying to watch out for where my freedoms are being eroded and vote accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I just want to remind everyone that time spent discussing/educating/arguing with people who cling to such beliefs is time in your life that you will never get back. http://xkcd.com/690/ Mouseover: I believe the truth always lies halfway between the most extreme claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Chocolatereign, maybe some DNA testing by various sources would have been a good place to start. But as I said in my previous comment, i'm not really into this topic enough to go on and on about it, so I'll bow out here, with the reiteration of my original post in this thread.....and that was...yes, I do believe that there are some rich and influential people/organisations in the world who try to manipulate things for their own greedy purposes but I don't think it is on some hugely organised, secret and long standing level. I also believe in being very cautious in believing conspiracy theories. My interest is simply in trying to watch out for where my freedoms are being eroded and vote accordingly. How would you know the DNA tests weren't faked? See that's the thing - we can never really "know" anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidArchuletaFan Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 See that's the thing - we can never really "know" anything. And that was EXACTLY my point when I said we can't truly know what is fact or fiction. Ok, ok, I promise to not give in to the temptation to refresh this thread today. Lol :-) Take care all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Yes, I do think I'm the average layman. I have no skills in analysing photographs for inconsistencies or military tactics in the middle east, of terrain and climate and weaponry or of ballistics, or aircraft engineering or bomb powder patterns or how to bring down a building in it's own footprint or, or, or.....the list could on and on. We're all laymen depending on the expertise of others. Yes, I could spend the rest of my life becoming expert in all these areas and then using my knowledge to analyse what information I can gather together and verify as being accurate.....but....why would I want to when I have limited capacity to do much about whatever results I might find and when I am busy trying to homeschool my children and raise my family and be a good wife, daughter, friend etc. We each have to choose how to spend our time in our lives, and while keeping my eyes wide open is something I am willing to do, chasing around conspiracy theories to the enth degree is something I am not. The skills I'm talking about are more basic. Recognizing a reasonable claim, not being seduced by patterns and coincidence, understanding how to evaluate a website or article, recognizing proper citations in an article, etc. Those are the first steps before any worries about expert technical knowledge and are often the place where people first trip up. You mentioned skepticism but a good skeptic should not simply throw everything into doubt and leave it there. You can be skeptical about Bin Laden but you should then be asking if there's proof to support the government's claim and if their account is reasonable. And your own thoughts should not be immune. So you find the dumping of the body weird and think there's an expected pattern that should have been followed...are those thoughts grounded and supportable? Or are they just hunches and feelings? What is the pattern you expected and the examples that led you to expect that pattern? Why does it still seem weird in the face of some very plausible explanations? If your own thoughts on the matter aren't supportable are you willing to take the step a true skeptic would have to and give up those thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 The skills I'm talking about are more basic. Recognizing a reasonable claim, not being seduced by patterns and coincidence, understanding how to evaluate a website or article, recognizing proper citations in an article, etc. Those are the first steps before any worries about expert technical knowledge and are often the place where people first trip up. The Umbrella Man - a short documentary by Errol Morris :) You mentioned skepticism but a good skeptic should not simply throw everything into doubt and leave it there. I don't remember who said it (Shermer?), but skepticism is a process, not a position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Google "Illuminati killed bin Laden" to go down the rabbit hole of paranoia - apparently it is not that rare a theory. It must be comforting, to have a boogeyman to blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggieamy Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 No, silly. It's the Jews! We rule the world. We're the only ones capable of it (aside from Hive members). :001_rolleyes: Whoa. The Jews?!?! I always thought it was the Masons. :huh: :laugh: Soylent Green is people! Uh oh. Glad you told me. Guess I better come up with something else for dinner then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted July 23, 2013 Author Share Posted July 23, 2013 Actually that reminds me.....when they supposedly caught, killed and disposed of Bin Laden...things just didn't add up. Why did we not see more evidence of it? Why was his body thrown into the sea so quickly? Since when did the American government and military care so much about Bin Laden's spiritual beliefs that they wanted to honour the rites of them so swiftly? Shouldn't there have been some sort of autopsy or some sort of fanfare hailing their success first? Something weird there..... And then the fact that many on the mission were killed in that helicopter "accident" shortly afterward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidArchuletaFan Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 The skills I'm talking about are more basic. Recognizing a reasonable claim, not being seduced by patterns and coincidence, understanding how to evaluate a website or article, recognizing proper citations in an article, etc. Those are the first steps before any worries about expert technical knowledge and are often the place where people first trip up. You mentioned skepticism but a good skeptic should not simply throw everything into doubt and leave it there. You can be skeptical about Bin Laden but you should then be asking if there's proof to support the government's claim and if their account is reasonable. And your own thoughts should not be immune. So you find the dumping of the body weird and think there's an expected pattern that should have been followed...are those thoughts grounded and supportable? Or are they just hunches and feelings? What is the pattern you expected and the examples that led you to expect that pattern? Why does it still seem weird in the face of some very plausible explanations? If your own thoughts on the matter aren't supportable are you willing to take the step a true skeptic would have to and give up those thoughts? To the degree that I have investigated conspiracy theories - yes, I have absolutely checked and considered the sources, citations etc! That was exactly my point in the beginning when I said to be cautious of who you listen to! As for the Bin Laden saga...no I never checked anything because I never researched anything beyond hearing a few news clips. When I raised the topic of Bin Laden, I was just off handedly mentioning how it had raised some passing questions in my mind. I'm not interested in pursuing it any further. To be honest, I feel like your picking a point with the wrong person because I don't care enough about conspiracy theories to hold a solid position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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