Prealgebra programs?

[texasmama]

For example the first ~100 pages are pretty much review of primary math including negative numbers.  So depending on how much of this is new vs. review you could skim it, maybe do every other problem for example or test out of parts.  There is a lot of geometry, even a little trig.  I would possibly trim these areas down.  Then I would skip statistics all together.

I did notice that Dolciani starts off slowly and builds slowly.  My boys are learning about negative numbers and working with them in the Key to Algebra series this summer, but SM does not cover them.  So they will enter next year with some knowledge of negative numbers.  I may use the end of chapter tests in Dolciani to have them test out of the first couple of chapters.  Good idea.  In my initial monstrosity mash-up, I covered absolutely everything in both books just to have a place to begin.  Dolciani does have a LOT of geometry.  The geometry in SM6 vexed my oldest son so some review is good, but all might not be needed.  It will hurt me to skip statistics.  :D  (But I might put it in a summer course on its own...)

 

 

AoPS does a lot of Arithmetic as well.  So I would only review where needed *without* monotonous overkill.

 

Keep in mind that since you will be using two programs there is nothing wrong with working every other problem as a general rule.  This is especially true for areas which come more easily.  Then slow down where needed to really focus on the more difficult subject matter like linear equations.  I did this ds11 during TC Pre-A and it worked well.  He had plenty of time to really think through the tougher stuff after I allowed him to skim through the things he obviously already knew.  This included taking a break from the spine and using supplements (AoPS and Khan) exclusively for a while as you plan to do.

 

Helpful advice.

 

Just a curiosity point, but why only do math three days a week?  If so how many hours total will you devote to math weekly?  The thing you really can't plan is exactly how long each section of each chapter will take as this varies with intensity, previous experience, initial comprehension of newer concepts, etc...  Some chapters are simply harder than others.  You'll have to take queues form your ds here allowing the pace to vary accordingly.

 

Doing math three days a week is not ideal, nor my first choice.  I work two days a week (Mondays and Tuesdays - 10 hour days) so I am away from home 11 hours on those days and no math can be done.  So I will be doing math on Wed-Fri.  I have considered doing some on Saturday and may need to (if only to finish up the week's assigned work), but I guard our weekend free time pretty hard because we truly all need down time and time to just be mom and kids.  :) 

 

My thought is that we will be doing two hours of math on those three days, which is quite a ramp up from last year.  I can split math into two segments (morning and afternoon) on Wed and Thurs to give my sons' brains time to rest while doing other subjects.  On Friday, we have a co-op which runs the first half of the day - not ideal for their math brains, but it serves a useful purpose so it stays on the schedule.

 

ETA:  I can also start our school year early with just math, giving us time to ramp up before adding the other subjects.  I am looking at our overall schedule hard to see what can be dropped/put on the back burner for the time to concentrate on the vital subjects.  Another thought:  I have always been the only one to teach math, but it is possible I could get my dad to work with the boys some during the day they are with him while I am at work.  He is a retired engineer and more mathy than I am.  Will need to see if that is a dynamic that will work for all of them, though.  My husband is out in the teaching  math department.  He's all over history but no help in math.  

 

Lastly, I would say that its perfectly fine to *not* cover everything twice in both programs.  Use the spine as such.  Then use AoPS for added depth of understanding.  I would even go so far as to say to only use one for Arthritic review, unless a gap or weakness needs further work.  Then use AoPS when the abstract algebraic reasoning really starts to kick in.  Taking a more reasonable approach to both will help keep you and your ds sane during this challenging adventure.  :thumbup: 

Thanks, Derek.  I know much of this seems obvious, but I need to hear all of it.  Have I said that this is not my strong suit?  :D  However, it is very much my boys' strong suit, so I am determined to equip them well.  This is my last huge push to lay down the foundations before they jump off into higher math so I want it to count.  I am not against doing math in the summer at all, just not 54 weeks a year...even I can do the math on that one and know it won't work.  ;)

 

[Arcadia]

 

Can't copy your reply to Derek when on my iPod.

For Monday and Tuesday maybe assign an hour's worth of AoPS math each day. The AoPS PreAlgebra book is self-teaching and the videos are worth watching.

What I did was ask my boys to skip the questions they have problems with and we go over them later. That way they complete as much as they can independently which I feel is a good test taking skill (the ability to move on to the next question if stuck and come back later).

ETA:

Just to clarify that the videos are worth watching in the sense that it is not a waste of time. My kids like the audio visual aspect. Not that the videos are required, the value added depends on the child.

[dereksurfs]

Can't copy your reply to Derek when on my iPod.

For Monday and Tuesday maybe assign an hour's worth of AoPS math each day. The AoPS PreAlgebra book is self-teaching and the videos are worth watching.

What I did was ask my boys to skip the questions they have problems with and we go over them later. That way they complete as much as they can independently which I feel is a good test taking skill (the ability to move on to the next question if stuck and come back later).

 

I was going to suggest something similar.  Math is not my wife's strong suit either.  However ds is generally good with math and now ~ 90+% independent.  So doing math on his own is perfectly normal with AoPS and the videos as needed.  I then help him after work whenever he has questions or is just unsure of something.  I think this is a great age to start working on more independent problem solving skills.  And Yes, AoPS is geared toward teaching the student directly.  So it would be perfectly reasonable to have him do AoPS on those days.  If your father could field questions it might be a bonding time for both of them.  Otherwise he could simply ask you questions about the ones he may have gotten stumped on either that night or the next day.

 

Secondly, I think starting earlier is a good idea as well.  You say you are going through 'Keys To' now.  That's great.  Maybe you could simply start his math program a little early.  It would give him a flavor of both books as well before starting with all his other subjects.  For us math is one of the top priorities at this developmental stage (concrete to abstract reasoning) and as such we give it more time than other subjects.   It's also nice to have a little breathing room once you get rolling with everything else so you can coast a bit when you need to take a break, go on vacations, enjoy your weekends, etc...  I'm all for work/life balance - working hard and playing hard.   Kids need that free play time, as long as they are digging in during regular school hours.  Sometimes a jump start will help the rest of the year go smoother.

[texasmama]

Excellent points. This is going to change my schedule quite a lot, which is why it is in pencil. :)

 

Derek, I have two sons who will be doing this program, which complicates things a bit rather than making it easier! Competition with the brother and all. I have already spent some time prepping my older for the younger to join him. Most of our issues are likely to originate from him.

 

I will return to the drawing board with my mammoth schedule and these ideas. I needed the schedule as a framework for the ideas to make sense so it was time well spent. And I will definitely start testing them out in early August. I think this is doable. :)

 

Thanks for all the help so far. I will be giving the play by play updates as we go along. Sadly, I will likely not get time to play with it much until next Wednesday.

[dereksurfs]

Excellent points. This is going to change my schedule quite a lot, which is why it is in pencil. :)

 

Derek, I have two sons who will be doing this program, which complicates things a bit rather than making it easier! Competition with the brother and all. I have already spent some time prepping my older for the younger to join him. Most of our issues are likely to originate from him.

 

I will return to the drawing board with my mammoth schedule and these ideas. I needed the schedule as a framework for the ideas to make sense so it was time well spent. And I will definitely start testing them out in early August. I think this is doable. :)

 

Thanks for all the help so far. I will be giving the play by play updates as we go along. Sadly, I will likely not get time to play with it much until next Wednesday.

 

Ah yes, I see this in your signature.  Please do let us know how this goes.  I have two daughters who are 1.5 years apart and the younger is nipping at the older's heels already.  So I could see this being a different kind of challenge. :tongue_smilie:  

 

I look forward to hearing how things go as you start with them.  There may be a point at which you'll need to let them progress individually at their own rates.  Some concepts are simply harder for some kids to grasp than others.

[DragonFaerie]

 

 

ETA:  I have pages and pages of notes in pencil on notebook paper. Seriously.  This is how I do my best work.  :)  I may just copy the sucker as is, give you my "key" (AoPS is the one with the box around it), and mail it to you.  My writing is neat.  We'll see if I can get it to copy legibly at my fancy dancy work copy machine.

 

Once you get your Dolciani book, you can give your own feedback. 

 

Sounds good to me!  I really, really, REALLY appreciate your hard work. :D

 

[Arcadia]

I have two daughters who are 1.5 years apart and the younger is nipping at the older's heels already. So I could see this being a different kind of challenge. :tongue_smilie:

My boys are a year (and a few days) apart. Younger has more perseverance than older which spur older to work harder to "save his face".

[texasmama]

Ah yes, I see this in your signature.  Please do let us know how this goes.  I have two daughters who are 1.5 years apart and the younger is nipping at the older's heels already.  So I could see this being a different kind of challenge. :tongue_smilie:  

 

I look forward to hearing how things go as you start with them.  There may be a point at which you'll need to let them progress individually at their own rates.  Some concepts are simply harder for some kids to grasp than others.

The younger has been nipping at his brother's heels, as you say, for some time now.  Younger jumped over older last week in the Keys to Algebra book due to the older becoming frustrated and overwhelmed and asking to take a break while younger said, "Can I finish the page?  I understand it."  So he did. 

 

Older initially balked at doing the same math program as younger because it is "embarrassing".  I explained that he is not behind, rather his brother is ahead and asked how he would feel if he were in his brother's position and was held back due to someone else's embarrassment.  He did understand this.  Walking it out day by day will require some mom help, I think.  :)   They have taken the same co op classes (Latin and science) so they do have some experience with this.  At some point in high school, their paths may diverge, but maybe not.  They are both very strong in math.  My older just lacks the frustration tolerance that the younger has.  I have seen growth in this area, though, as he has entered a more abstract developmental phase, so I have hope of this continuing to be a skill he develops.

 

My boys are a year (and a few days) apart. Younger has more perseverance than older which spur older to work harder to "save his face".

I hope that my older can turn his competition into something more positive like this dynamic.

[texasmama]

Sounds good to me!  I really, really, REALLY appreciate your hard work. :D

 

I had to do it anyway, so I am glad to share the end results, such as they are.  I like a challenge.  :D  You will have some valuable feedback, I'm sure, once you have both programs in your hand.

[texasmama]

Okay, I lied. I spent a little time today on it. ;)

 

I have it down to 47 weeks by pushing statistics onto summer, 2014 and testing out of Dolciani Ch 1-3 prior to school starting. Also, I will work through AoPS Ch 1 prior to school starting to introduce my sons to the format of the book.

 

Seven weeks down, eleven to go. :D

[dereksurfs]

Okay, I lied. I spent a little time today on it. ;)

 

I have it down to 47 weeks by pushing statistics onto summer, 2014 and testing out of Dolciani Ch 1-3 prior to school starting. Also, I will work through AoPS Ch 1 prior to school starting to introduce my sons to the format of the book.

 

Seven weeks down, eleven to go. :D

 

You're making progress, Texasmama!  Keep choppin'.   ;)

 

BTW, I haven't seen what you would cut out of AoPS yet.  Maybe start in the other direction.  Instead determine which chapters of AoPS you absolutely want to include.  If you plan to follow the next year with AoPS Intro to Algebra I would highly recommend going through all of ch. 2 on Exponents, ch. 5 on Linear Equations and ch. 15 on Problem Solving Strategies.  Maybe Arcadia or someone else with the text will suggest 'must do' chapters as well.  

 

I think if you start with these 'must have' chapters and build out within your time frame it might help fit it all in.  Then depending on how the year progresses if there is time remaining add in more AoPS 'nice to have' chapters.  You need to leave some room and flexibility as you watch and see how they interact with the material.  Then make fine tuned adjustments such as pace, amount of one over the other.  For example one child may really mesh well with AoPS's style of instruction more.  Maybe he could do more with AoPS in that case and Dolciani could be lightened.  Conversely, if AoPS is overwelming Dolciani could be leaned on more heavily with less AoPS overall, beyond those gotta have chapters. 

[Arcadia]

 

 

SM does cover negative numbers even though my boys pick up negative numbers from Cyberchase (PBSKids) before they did the chapter in SM.

http://www.singaporemath.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/sp_pmstdtg6b1.pdf

 

 

Maybe Arcadia or someone else with the text will suggest 'must do' chapters as well.  

 

I would be the wrong person to advise for that since I am using the AoPS book to give my boys practice in reading the word problems carefully and minimize careless mistakes. My boys also had many rabbit trails in math so their progression is more asynchronous than typical. They breeze through the statistics chapter.

Definitely do the review and challenge problems, they are fun. My boys did the exercise problems but I would choose to skip those if they were using more than one math textbook/curriculum.

[texasmama]

 

SM does cover negative numbers even though my boys pick up negative numbers from Cyberchase (PBSKids) before they did the chapter in SM.

http://www.singaporemath.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/sp_pmstdtg6b1.pdf

Is this Standard Editions?  We have used US Editions.

[Arcadia]

Is this Standard Editions? We have used US Editions.

Just checked the scope and sequence pdf. It is only in the standards, 5B and 6B.

[texasmama]

BTW, I haven't seen what you would cut out of AoPS yet.  Maybe start in the other direction.  Instead determine which chapters of AoPS you absolutely want to include.  If you plan to follow the next year with AoPS Intro to Algebra I would highly recommend going through all of ch. 2 on Exponents, ch. 5 on Linear Equations and ch. 15 on Problem Solving Strategies.  Maybe Arcadia or someone else with the text will suggest 'must do' chapters as well.  

I want to leave AoPS Algebra open as a possibility for both boys so this is helpful.  I already have Lial's Algebra (I believe it is beginning and intermediate, but I don't recall and am at work so I cannot check.)  I have the DVD's for the Lial's course also but have not looked at them much at all.  Just happened to pick up a good deal on ebay.  Ideally, if the pre-A mash-up works for my boys, I could do something similar with an Algebra course.  Alternately, if it is a terrible disaster, I will have Lial's and AoPS as options for Algebra as indiviidual programs.

 

To add to my "plan ahead" syndrome, I will also say that I got Chalkdust Geometry for a fabulous deal at Half Price Books.  Yes, I'm crazy.  :)

 

One year at a time....it's good to have options.

[Arcadia]

Alternately, if it is a terrible disaster, I will have Lial's and AoPS as options for Algebra as indiviidual programs.

 

I have McDougal Littell Holt Larson's Algebra 1 & 2 2001 edition as backups as I got them cheap since it is public school text here.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0395937760

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0618250204

I can borrow Lial's easily from the library.

[texasmama]

Okay, I am massaging my mash-up to make it submit to my schedule and have some questions/thoughts. (That sentence has some unintentional alliteration, which is particularly pleasing.  :D )

 

How important is geometry to pre-Algebra?  Specifically, I am looking at eliminating Chapter 6 of Dolciani (1985) and Chapter 10 of AoPS pre-A.  They would just go away completely.  This would eliminate about three weeks.  Or should I try to stick them in summer 2014 with Statistics? I can't put everything into summer 2014, obviously...

 

Should I keep perimeter and area?  If not, I would eliminate Chapter 11 of AoPS. (and part of Chapter 6 of Dolciani) - this saves a bit over a week.  SM covered perimeter and area pretty thoroughly.

 

My current schedule contains about six weeks of fractions.  If I eliminate Chapters 7-8 of Dolciani and just do the AoPS Chapter 4, that condenses from six weeks to three weeks of fractions.  My boys have had quite a bit of SM instruction on fractions, in addition to part of LOF and some other resources, though those were done several years ago.  I think six weeks on fractions is probably overkill, and I can use Dolciani for a refresher as needed but use AoPS as the spine for fractions.

 

I am halfway through my massive mash-up, and this is what I am considering so far.  Please give me feedback.  Do not fear that you will be too basic or obvious or insulting with feedback.  Assume no knowledge on my part.  I have sacrificed my pride at the altar of need here.  :)

 

ETA:  Even if I keep perimeter and area, with the above changes, I am down to a 40 week program.  I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.  It still feels very unwieldy to me, and I will need to change the day to day schedule, but I think is going to work.  Some of my changes will be to eliminate some of the Dolciani end of chapter review/testing, as I think it is likely overkill for my boys and also will overload our individual days.  Efficiency! Efficiency!

[texasmama]

BTW, this thread has 1,248 views currently so we are popular.  :D

[Arcadia]

How important is geometry to pre-Algebra? Specifically, I am looking at eliminating Chapter 6 of Dolciani (1985) and Chapter 10 of AoPS pre-A. They would just go away completely. This would eliminate about three weeks. Or should I try to stick them in summer 2014 with Statistics? I can't put everything into summer 2014, obviously...

 

Should I keep perimeter and area? If not, I would eliminate Chapter 11 of AoPS. (and part of Chapter 6 of Dolciani) - this saves a bit over a week. SM covered perimeter and area pretty thoroughly.

 

Do you have the solution manual for AoPS prealgebra so that it cuts down on time you need to check their work?

The review exercise and challenge problems for Chapter 11 took my boys two days and probably less than an hour of effort each day. So that could be done by your kids on Monday and Tuesday while you are at work.

The geometry and statistics chapters (10, 12, 13, 14) can be completed in a two month long summer.

[wapiti]

How important is geometry to pre-Algebra?  Specifically, I am looking at eliminating Chapter 6 of Dolciani (1985) and Chapter 10 of AoPS pre-A.  They would just go away completely.  This would eliminate about three weeks.  Or should I try to stick them in summer 2014 with Statistics? I can't put everything into summer 2014, obviously...

 

Should I keep perimeter and area?  If not, I would eliminate Chapter 11 of AoPS. (and part of Chapter 6 of Dolciani) - this saves a bit over a week.  SM covered perimeter and area pretty thoroughly.

 

I would not eliminate any of the geometry chapters in AoPS.  Those are our favorite ones :).  Perimeter and area are an absolute must, as is the pythagorean theorem.  If those AoPS chapters go well, I doubt you'd need the chapter from Dolciani.  For kids who favor geometry over algebra, getting this tiny taste is like a breath of fresh air before buckling down for algebra 1.  I would not skip.

 

I think you'll find that you don't need both books on every single topic and certainly not all the problems in both books - I bet you end up streamlining more as you go along.  Even for the topics where you use Dolciani to teach it and get the extra practice, you may then turn to AoPS and think to yourself, hey, the first lesson or two here has already been covered.  Or, you may find that your student does much better with one or the other as their main source.

 

Eta, when you're finished with your project, you may commence doing the same thing with Jacobs and AoPS Intro to Alg. (just kidding; I happened to pull a few practice problems from Jacobs for ds today - not something I do often, yet)

[texasmama]

Do you have the solution manual for AoPS prealgebra so that it cuts down on time you need to check their work?

The review exercise and challenge problems for Chapter 11 took my boys two days and probably less than an hour of effort each day. So that could be done by your kids on Monday and Tuesday while you are at work.

The geometry and statistics chapters (10, 12, 13, 14) can be completed in a two month long summer.

I do have the solutions manual.  That is helpful info about Chapter 11 - thank you.

[texasmama]

I would not eliminate any of the geometry chapters in AoPS.  Those are our favorite ones :).  Perimeter and area are an absolute must, as is the pythagorean theorem.  If those AoPS chapters go well, I doubt you'd need the chapter from Dolciani.  For kids who favor geometry over algebra, getting this tiny taste is like a breath of fresh air before buckling down for algebra 1.  I would not skip.

 

I think you'll find that you don't need both books on every single topic and certainly not all the problems in both books - I bet you end up streamlining more as you go along.  Even for the topics where you use Dolciani to teach it and get the extra practice, you may then turn to AoPS and think to yourself, hey, the first lesson or two here has already been covered.  Or, you may find that your student does much better with one or the other as their main source.

 

Eta, when you're finished with your project, you may commence doing the same thing with Jacobs and AoPS Intro to Alg. (just kidding; I happened to pull a few practice problems from Jacobs for ds today - not something I do often, yet)

Okay, I will keep perimeter and area.  I have one child for whom Geometry-related things was a struggle, but I see the value in having a go at it with a different program.

 

I think you are right about the streamlining.  I have started with absolutely everything and am now at the place which I am trying to decide what is vital and what is not.  After this is done, I will look more closely at the individual topics and the overlap.  Oh, that will be fun!  (Not so much...)

 

I will need to take a pass on the Jacobs and AoPS intro to Algebra mash-up.  This all the mashing I can do.  :D  I think I do have Jacobs...and Foerster...and some other Algebra text in addition to the Lial's.  For someone who is not math-oriented, I have a LOT of math texts.  ;)  I am really hoping that my boys like this combo approach.  It could go either way, really. 

[wapiti]

I think you are right about the streamlining.  I have started with absolutely everything and am now at the place which I am trying to decide what is vital and what is not.  After this is done, I will look more closely at the individual topics and the overlap.  Oh, that will be fun!  (Not so much...)

 

You've done so much work upfront.  If it were me, I'd leave further streamlining to do on-the-fly, once you're in the middle of actually doing these lessons.  I think the little decisions day-to-day will be a lot clearer then.

[texasmama]

You've done so much work upfront.  If it were me, I'd leave further streamlining to do on-the-fly, once you're in the middle of actually doing these lessons.  I think the little decisions day-to-day will be a lot clearer then.

This is excellent advice.  I am such a planner, though.  I will mull this over in my brain to see if I can get it to gel.  I know you are correct about the day to day decisions being easier when we are in the middle of it.

[texasmama]

For those who have used AoPS pre-A, please give me an idea of how you schedule it.  I am wondering how long it takes to do each chapter section, as they seem quite long and involved.  I know this will vary by chapter section and kid, but I am curious what people's actual experiences have been.  Thanks!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

For those who have used AoPS pre-A, please give me an idea of how you schedule it.  I am wondering how long it takes to do each chapter section, as they seem quite long and involved.  I know this will vary by chapter section and kid, but I am curious what people's actual experiences have been.  Thanks!

 

Not sure if this will be of help to you or not, but I'll throw it out there in case it helps someone.

 

Finding how to best approach AoPS took us a few months.

 

I know many people just set a set time for working on math each day, but that doesn't work for my dd--she needs a goal. If I tell her to work on math for 1.5 hours, she will, but with varied results. If she has a goal to complete a section she seems more focused with her work.

 

At the moment she usually completes a section of exercises or problems each day. She usually takes a week or so to do the summary section with all the challenge problems. She then does Alcumus for the chapter.

 

We are currently working on actually writing work. I've stressed this all along, but it is becoming more of a problem. She insists she just "sees" answers without the in-between steps, so it is frustrating to write the steps. And legibly? That's apparently asking way too much. :rolleyes:

 

I am trying to look at dd's AoPS Pre-A 1.5 years as getting a solid base for not only math, but also for tackling challenging independent work and producing consistently legible output--even when in the depths of thought. If it ends up taking two years--so be it.

 

So, good or bad, that's where we are right now. If you are trying to speed through the book, disregard what I wrote because it is NOT a speedy plan. ;)

[texasmama]

I appreciate the feedback.  We are not trying to speed through it, but I would like to finish in one year.  We can take some of the summer as needed to finish up.  I tend to overestimate what my kids and I can accomplish so this leads to unrealistic plans/expectations.  It helps to hear from some folks who have actually done this program.  :)  My kids do better with an end goal, as well, rather than a time slot for a subject.

 

ETA:  I have worked with my older son on writing intermediate steps, also.  He tends to attempt all mental math, which does not always lead to correct answers, particularly with a new concept.  I think after a LONG time of me giving consistent feedback on this and demonstrating how I write all the steps and end up with the correct answer, he has started writing the steps.  Whew!  It only took years...

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I probably should have added that AoPS is our core math program, but we do other math as well. That adds to the time to get through the book.

[Arcadia]

For those who have used AoPS pre-A, please give me an idea of how you schedule it. I am wondering how long it takes to do each chapter section, as they seem quite long and involved. I know this will vary by chapter section and kid, but I am curious what people's actual experiences have been. Thanks!

I schedule AoPS last so that it does not hold up the other subjects. My boys do a section a day for weekdays. A day for the review problems and a day for the challenge problems. My boys are after schoolers though so when school work is heavy, we skip AoPS on those days.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I schedule AoPS last so that it does not hold up the other subjects. My boys do a section a day for weekdays. A day for the review problems and a day for the challenge problems. My boys are after schoolers though so when school work is heavy, we skip AoPS on those days.

 

Do they do all the challenge problems in one day?

[Arcadia]

Do they do all the challenge problems in one day?

Yes, all in the same day.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Yes, all in the same day.

 

How long does it usually take them?

You are referring to Pre-A--correct?

Thanks!

 

ETA: I'm guessing that an hour or so to do all the challenging word problems is not the norm. Maybe my thinking is incorrect, though.

[Arcadia]

How long does it usually take them?

You are referring to Pre-A--correct?

I am referring to Pre-A. I didn't take note of how long they took but it varies by chapters and by my boys. My younger was faster in the geometry chapters than his brother. They also make frequent trips to the refrigerator which is about 2 meters from my dining table :lol: Definately longer than an hour especially with some chatting.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I am referring to Pre-A. I didn't take note of how long they took but it varies by chapters and by my boys. My younger was faster in the geometry chapters than his brother. They also make frequent trips to the refrigerator which is about 2 meters from my dining table :lol: Definately longer than an hour especially with some chatting.

 

LOL

 

The more I think about it, the more I realize it is hard to pinpoint how much time we've spent. I said it will take a year and a half to finish, but that's the calendar time from start to finish. We took time away from AoPS for various reasons, and I was including that in the time span, which doesn't make sense. We took many more breaks (not just for fun) than usual this year, so we're playing catch up now. Obviously that skews things a bit.

 

I do know my dd isn't as fast with the challenge problems! Fridge or not! ;)

[DragonFaerie]

Okay, I need more help here.  I'm doing okay with coordinating Dolciani and AoPS (thanks, Texasmama!), but I don't know what to do with the Key to Algebra series.  I was going to have him do those books first, and then move on to Dolciani and AoPS, but now I'm not so sure.  The Key to Algebra books seem to start off really, really easy but then quickly move on to quadratic equations, polynomials, etc., and by book 10, they are beyond the pre-algebra books.  Spreading the series out over the course of the pre-algebra doesn't really work because it would mean doing a page or two here, then waiting five or six weeks before doing another page and skipping around the books a LOT.  So should I do the Key to Algebra books first, and then do my pre-algebra plan?  Or should I do all of the pre-algebra stuff and then finish up by going through the ten Key to Algebra books?  Help!!!

[texasmama]

Thanks for the info on scheduling for AoPS. 

 

I was thinking today that there always seem to be unexpected interruptions in our school.  Today, my youngest has Fifth's disease and has been a crabby mess for a few days.  Also, older ds has terrible allergies.  I had to give him Benadryl, which makes him weepy and sleepy.  We got very little done for school today.  Sigh.  Also, as Arcadia noted, they eat frequently, like newborns.

 

Dragon, you already know what I have done/planned to do with Key to Algebra, but I wanted to say that I noted the same thing - easy start and then quickly requires more time and effort.  My boys worked through the first booklet in a week (three days, actually, though they were pretty intense), and then we have spent the past six weeks on booklet two.  After doing these first two booklets, we will do Chapters 1-3 of  of Dolciani followed by Chapter 1 of AoPS in the next month prior to our official school start on August 19th.  I can't plan quite that far ahead right now, but I am thinking that we will work through some/all of the other Key to Algebra booklets next summer and then dive into Algebra in 2014-2015.   

[DragonFaerie]

Thanks, Texasmama.  That's kind of what I was thinking, though I don't think we'd even do the first two booklets right now.  Maybe I'll just use those as a review/bridge between our pre-algebra programs and algebra I.

[happyhome]

Texasmama.....just wanted to check in with you to see if you were able to flesh out your Dolciani/ AoPS PreA schedule. We are starting the same combo next week and I'd love to see how others are lining it up.

[texasmama]

"The best laid plans of mice and men..." as they say.

 

We worked through the first three chapters of Dolciani and the first chapter of AoPS prior to starting school on August 19th.  That provided valuable information about how my boys reacted to both programs.  The older prefers AoPS, and the younger actually prefers Dolciani.  During the first three weeks of school, some things became very clear in practice that were not clear in planning, as is often the case!  Due to my work schedule (which imposes greatly on schooling) and adjusting to the higher expectations/workload of middle school science and third year Latin at co-op, and also due to the fact that my boys are unable/unwilling to work through these programs without a lot of handholding from me, I made the executive decision to drop most of the Dolciani I had scheduled and go with AoPS as our primary program with Dolciani as a PRN back-up. I am also now looking at Khan academy as a means to have my boys do SOMETHING independently during the two long days I am at work, as much to stretch them to work independently as for learning the concepts.

 

So this is not at all what I had planned, and teaching math is not my strong suit.  I spend a great deal of time thinking of the future and looking at options to remove me from the role of math instructor as soon as possible.  On the table are Math U See, Jann in TX's classes, Tabletclass, Lial's introductory Algebra with DVD teaching (which I own), and two local co-ops, one of which is very difficult to get into.  The co op we have belonged to for four years does not offer math.  I am viewing this year as an "experiment" regarding AoPS.  As I understand, the pre-A is more complex in presentation than the Algebra book, if they boys can make it through the pre-A book well, then I think the Algebra book is an option.  We love RR's video teaching.  He is a gem.  :)  I feel like I have plenty of time with my 5th grader in Pre-A. I feel a bit more internal pressure to "get it right" and figure out a workable plan with my 7th grader.

 

I often miss our beloved Singapore math, which was familiar and understood, but I think going to a more traditional scope and sequence was the right decision for us.  If math were my strong subject, I likely would have stuck with Singapore, but I need other options.  :)

 

As an aside, for the past month, a potential work at home situation with my current employer has been in the works, which would simplify our math issues, as it would allow us to work on math every day.  As it is, I am just not able to do math after being gone from 6:20 am - 5:20 pm on the two days I work, and it is crystal clear to me that my boys will not be able to work independently.  So if that comes through, it will greatly aid our math journey.  I should know in the next week or two.  :)

[happyhome]

"The best laid plans of mice and men..." as they say.

 

 

Oh, I know that feeling.  I was hoping the Dolciani/AoPS idea would be successful for you.  We've had our eye on that plan.  I think we're now planning on AoPS as our spine....DD is that kid that you read about here that just gets AoPS.  I think the PreA book is wordy and overly complicated but she LOVES it....videos, Alcumus, the whole shebang!!  We'll use Dolciani to fill in holes if she doesn't understand something and use other supplements to break things up if AoPS gets too intense (i.e., Key to Algebra, Hands on Equations and Zacarro).  We'll see.  I thought I could fully integrate Dolciani but her reaction this past week changed things again:

 

DD:  "Mom, if AoPS is teaching me what I need to know and I love it and I get it, why do I have to use that boring book too?"

Mom:   :confused1:

 

So, plans changed again.  AoPS is the spine.  We're through Chapters 1 and 2 so far and she's doing great.

 

Good luck with your new job schedule.  I hope that works out for you.  

[texasmama]

My oldest son had the boring reaction to Dolciani, as well.  Ironically, he was the one I originally got Dolciani for.  I shall always remember the summer of 2013 and the "Great Pre-Algebra Mash-up". :D  Even though my plan was not successful, some valuable information and experiences came from it.  If I had two years to do pre-A for older son, I would keep the plan and do both programs over two years...probably.  :) 

 

I like your plan to interject some Dolciani as needed, along with Key to Algebra and the other programs.  I will remember that, as we have the Key to Algebra booklets and have worked through some of them already.  I liked them.  They made sense to my non-mathy brain. 

 

Thanks for the good luck on the job.  :)

[DragonFaerie]

We've gone from using Dolciani and AoPS (ala texasmama's "mash up") to just using AoPS alone, to my son asking why he's not getting to use the Dolciani book any more.  So now we're back to the mash up, and he really likes changing things up and doing both books.  He likes doing AoPS with me, but he also likes that he can do Dolciani by himself.  We are also doing tons of supplemental stuff (Murderous Maths books, Life of Fred, Alcumus and the AoPS videos, weekly word problems, some fraction review worksheets, a pre-algebra homeschool class and soon to add Mathematical Reasoning when it's released.  What can I say?  The kid loves math. :D)  Anyway, so far so good!

[JadeOrchidSong]

Texasmama and DragonFaerie,

Can you share your plan of coordinating AoPS Prealgebra and Dolciani Prealgebra? Ds 10.8 is finishing up SM 6B and we will go into these two. It would be very helpful to see what works and what doesn't and if you have lesson plans in place. Thank you!

[DragonFaerie]

Texasmama and DragonFaerie,

Can you share your plan of coordinating AoPS Prealgebra and Dolciani Prealgebra? Ds 10.8 is finishing up SM 6B and we will go into these two. It would be very helpful to see what works and what doesn't and if you have lesson plans in place. Thank you!

 

I have a very bare-bones Excel spread sheet that matches and schedules out Dolciani and AoPS.  Let me see if I can attach it....

 

ETA: Well, that didn't work.  Let me get it into a .pdf and see if that works.

[DragonFaerie]

Here's another try, this time with a .pdf.

 

ETA:  By the way, this is largely (if not mostly) texasmama's plan.  She did the heavy lifting here. :-)

Pre-Algebra plans.pdf

Pre-Algebra plans.pdf

[texasmama]

Make sure that you are using the same edition of the Dolciani text as Dragon Faerie and I have. It is the 1985 one with the green cover. Would link it but am on my phone.

[DragonFaerie]

Make sure that you are using the same edition of the Dolciani text as Dragon Faerie and I have. It is the 1985 one with the green cover. Would link it but am on my phone.

 

Oh, right.  Good point. :D

[JadeOrchidSong]

Mine is 1985:-) thanks! I will check it out!

[JadeOrchidSong]

Thank you, Dragon Faerie and Texasmama! I will use it as a base and add and subtract days per my ds's need. Can't wait to start!

[JadeOrchidSong]

I just looked at the amount of daily work. It looks more than one hour that ds can do. How long does it take yours?