TOG fans--Is it worth it for one, rhetoric-aged learner??

[Erin]

We've done Sonlight up til now (and it's worked great for my struggling reader!) but Buck will do Core 100 (Am. History) this coming year. Beyond that, though, I'm not overly impressed with their high school years, so I've been wandering around looking at other options.

 

I've been studying TOG for the past few days and I'm loving what I'm seeing. :)

But whew! Is it ever pricey! And that's before we figure in the actual books. (My local library is pretty small. They'll have a handful of the readers and be able to get a few via inter-library loan, but the rest I'll have to buy.)

 

I've looked at Trisms and MFW and a few others along these similar lines, and I'm just not as impressed as I am with TOG.

But is it really worth the cost for a single student in high school?

 

I need a sales pitch... ;)

[bethben]

You can always buy used and/or buy new print to later resell. The question is, are you ready to have discussions with your student at that level? Yes, the answers are all there, but you still have to look over them to get an idea of where the discussion is going. I bought into TOG early because of those dialectic and rhetoric years. The questions they ask melding personal faith into history are amazing.

 

Beth

[Erin]

Granted, I was just an elementary major in college, but I did take a couple of philosophy classes for kicks. The discussion shown in the free Egypt download is part of what has really drawn me, actually. :)

[G5052]

Not doubting you, but if you truly have to motivation to use it, then of course it can be great. If you want that sort of thing, but don't have the time and energy, maybe not.

 

We used TOG for a year when mine were younger, and I learned that I am not a TOG person. Sonlight was fine for the elementary years, TOG was too much. I won't attempt it again on my own.

 

I also learned that as mine entered the teen years, they did much more discussion in a local or online class than they ever did with me at home. I would have loved to do it myself, but there's something in the dynamic that sometimes teens prefer being with their peers and another adult for those subjects. So we've outsourced history and literature. The ideal for me would be a TOG co-op, but I'm not aware of any close by.

 

Your mileage may vary....

[Candid]

Yes! However, I do have a concern about this in your post:

 

it's worked great for my struggling reader!

 

Tapestry is not for a struggling reader. Tapestry is for a child who loves to read, loves history and literature.

 

I personally think Tapestry is at its easiest at the high school level IF you have a handle on the books you will need at the beginning of the year and have gone ahead and printed out (or bought) the student pages you want to use. With those two components in place, your student is on their own for most of the week, you read about a half an hour of background material and you can open the discussion and go.

 

My only caveat to that is that it does take a while to get a handle on Socratic discussions. Unlike Sonlight, which I also used, it is not a fill in the blank kind of thing, sometimes it will seem that your student didn't read that or have the answer, but what Tapestry is trying to get them to do is connect things up and leap into the material and make new connections or insights. This doesn't come easily every time or at first.

 

Okay one other caveat, you may need to work with your student at first to break down and assign when they will do each part of Tapestry. I see this as a great thing for them to learn in high school and not in college.

[Erin]

Yeah...I really have't used ANY of the Sonlight discussion questions. Ever. lol

I usually read the books along with kid(s) so the discussions were more organic--not just because the questions tend to be extremely simplistic. (I've been a Socratic teacher for 20 years. I didn't even realize what it was called when I was a new teacher.).

Like I said, the TOG discussions are part of its draw. :)

 

So far as a steering a struggling reader away from reading, I guess I have to disagree. That's part of why I have been so happy with Sonlight, actually. Like anything else, the only thing that makes a better reader is more reading practice. But because history is a subject that interests him, he'll drag himself through a book (which makes reading a little easier each time!) He's finally reading above grade level. But he wouldn't read at all, were it not assigned...

He will be reading in college, whether it's enjoyable or not, so I just want to help cultivate the appreciation now while he's got the one-on-one...

[mjbucks1]

I am only using TOG right now for my oldest, and think it is very much worth it. I simply could not pull together a course the asks the thought provoking questions that TOG does, and gets a student to understand how different aspects of history are connected. I am fortunate that we have a very good library system, so I am able to get many (but not all) of the books from the library.

 

Like Candid, I too would be cautious about using TOG with a struggling reader. Not only are many of the books challenging, but the volume of the assignments is not for the faint of heart. Of course you can trim some of the assignments, or use the dialectic level books if things get too difficult. Also, Sonlight's core 100 uses the History of US series, which is a 5th/6th grade reading level. I think it might be a good idea to utilize a program next year that would challenge your son in preparation for TOG. I am only cautioning you because my ds is quite gifted and has had a hard time keeping up with assignments (although you can see from my sig that he has had several difficult classes). I am saying this all of this to you as I am trying to prepare my dd for TOG the year after next. I am not sure at this point if she will up to the challenge of the rhetoric level, but I am trying my best :001_smile: .

 

Blessings,

Michelle

[Erin]

or use the dialectic level books if things get too difficult

I had thought of this. It even looks like I could drop a level just for specific things within a unit... Is that true?

i also thought of getting a subscription to LearningAlly to get audios

[Candid]

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I had thought of this. It even looks like I could drop a level just for specific things within a unit... Is that true?

i also thought of getting a subscription to LearningAlly to get audios

 

Yes, easily.

 

Like Michelle I have a strong reader who loves history but Tapestry gave him books on occasion that even he found daunting, difficult, and boring. Most of those were in history.

 

In lit they give you cutting charts for I believe all the year plans except Year One so in that area you can just cut down the amount of reading.

[Kathie in VA]

I am using TOG now, going into our second year but we are in a co-op which makes it so much easier.... and I have multiple kids so the price wasn't as scary.

 

Have you looked into Omnibus from Veritas Press? It is also a deep program but it keeps all the ages separate...which works for you. I've always been drawn to this but it was just not the right choice for my kids at the time.

[Erin]

Also, Sonlight's core 100 uses the History of US series, which is a 5th/6th grade reading level. I think it might be a good idea to utilize a program next year that would challenge your son in preparation for TOG.

OK, so my curiosity was piqued.

 

I just plugged almost every title of Tapestry of Grace Year 1, Dialectic levels books (because this is an 8th grader) into Accelerated Reader to find out reading levels.

The fictional readers ranged from 5th-8th, primarily at the 5th-7th grade range. The nonfiction selections ranged from 6th-9th, primarily at the 7th and 8th levels. A total of 49 books.

I suspect I would find a similarity with Years 2-4.

 

Then I plugged in almost all of Sonlight's Core 100.

The History of US is indeed at a 5/6th grade level.

The fictional readers ranged from 5th-9th, primarily in the 5th-7th grade range. The remaining nonfiction selections ranged from 6th-9th, primarily at the 7th and 8th levels. A total of 52 books (counting the History of US as a single book, btw).

 

Practically identical.

[Erin]

Have you looked into Omnibus from Veritas Press?

No. I'm off to do so now. :)

Thanks for the suggestion.

[PeterPan]

Erin, I think you should trust your gut on this. You were drawn to TOG, so just do it. It's a totally fair price for what you get. As for Omnibus, well it is GB with history to fill the cracks. TOG is history with GB to fill the cracks. Totally different mindsets. There are extensive samples on google books, so you can look at the intro essays and assignments for the books and decide for yourself.

 

The other thing that helped me compare curricula was to look at the same topic or book in each curriculum. Only then do you really start to see the difference in how things are handled. For instance look at what VP does with the Code of Hammurabi, then go look at Stobaugh and BJU and TOG and what have you. In the end, you'll probably see pretty clearly the differences.

 

Now I'll be a little radical here. TOG is neat, definitely like, have looked at 20 times and never taken the plunge. I *intended* to do Omnibus with dd and she just doesn't love it, says she wants history with some GB, not the other way around. We just couldn't bring our souls to take the plunge this year, so we used the BJU World History text as a spine, along with guides I made, and then she read extra things. It was fine, but it was an INSANE amount of work for me, I'm talking like 3-4 hours a week. I hate history anyway, so that was horrible. So to me, TOG would have to cost a LOT MORE before it would be priced beyond the VALUE for what it SAVES you in your OWN time. Whew. Just saying, having btdt. My time is worth something, and it has to be more than $1 an hour, which is about what I saved. ;)

 

Now when you use something like the BJU text, you *do* get synthesis. When I read sections of TOG in the online samples and look at their parent lectures and socratic discussions vs. what the BJU text does, it's in there, prego. In TOG it's a little more obvious, because they're telling it to you the parent in blinking lights. In the BJU text it's more obvious for the student IF they are comfortable reading and outlining and SEEING the flow of arguments. TOG is trying to give you that discussion. Some people have said they had issues with sources and not being able to answer questions. With a text, it's all there, upfront. With TOG, if you don't discuss, it doesn't happen. And of course a text has video options. ;)

 

Anyways, my kids are 10 years apart, meaning if I bought I'd be buying for an only. I don't know if we will or not, but I think it's a very fair price for what they give you, even for just 1 dc, and totally, totally worth it. Go with your gut. :)