Dyslexia and writing

[thundersweet]

I suspect my 8yo may have dyslexia. We are in the process of having him diagnosed. One of the items the screener asked for was a writing sample. I realized that my son has not done any writing! We are so focused on reading that we have neglected writing. I will include his assignment below. My thought was he can't write if he can't spell. I had him write a short paragraph for the screener and he really enjoyed it. I want to start having him write something every day. What do those of you with dyslexic children use for writing? He is still in 2nd grade. Will start 3rd in the fall. I am looking at Verticy for 3rd grade. Should I just encourage him to write something in a journal every day? Should I correct his spelling in everything he does? I read in how to teach spelling to not correct every word, to just focus on revising and polishing one piece a week because you don't want to discourage the child from writing. Thoughts? I had to crop his sample, I hope you can still read it.

 

 

 

Thanks,

Sandy

[Tokyomarie]

How long did it take for him to produce this sample? If he enjoyed doing it and it didn't take him an overly long time, here are couple of things you could choose to do:

 

1. Have him write a little in a journal every day. Don't correct any of his journal writing. This is just to get him in the habit of recording his thoughts for enjoyment. But the writing will eventually improve with practice. This helps to build fluency of exp<b></b>ression- he learns to generate thoughts and record them without the anxiety of worrying about whether he's done it "right."

 

2. Do one of two things:

a) do copywork/dictation where you choose a sentence or short passage either from something he's reading or from a program that includes copywork and dictation. I like to have the student copy the passage on two days, then write it from dictation for two more days. Each time, work with him to discover whether his writing matches the model, and if he discovers error then he should correct those errors himself.

 

b ) Write from a prompt once a week for 2-4 sentences. You can choose perhaps two words to correct the spelling and correct any mechanics issues (capitalization, punctuation). Tell him on these corrections that you are not necessarily correcting everything that needs correcting but you are choosing the most important ones for that week. That way he becomes aware that a couple of corrections doesn't mean there are no more errors, just that this week he is learning these two or three spellings.

[CraftyHomeschool]

I don't really have any sugestions but wanted to see the sugestions :001_rolleyes: . Can I ask how long that took your son to write that sample? I'm impressed with his writing, although not spelled correctly I could understand what he was saying and his handwiring is pretty good. I have a 4th grader (going into 5th this fall) and I would be SO HAPPY if his writing looked that good or was spelled so I could read it :huh: !!! I agree with the sugestions that Tokyomarie made, I will have to try some of those out. For my son the more he writes the more progress he makes in BOTH his reading and his spelling/handwriting. Good luck with the eval. I can't wait for more sugestions.

[thundersweet]

Ugh! I just lost my response! Crafty, it didn't take long. He actually wrote pretty quickly, he just kept pausing to think about what he wanted to say. He knew someone else would be reading this. When he writes on unlined paper, his writing isn't as neat.

 

Tokyomarie, these are great suggestions! I think I'll start with #2. Maybe I'll also have him write in a journal before bed. That would be a good way to see improvement over time.

 

Sandy

[myboyluvsdinos]

One thing to keep in mind: if you are going to do Barton tutoring, she doesn't recommend that you work on a formal writing program until they are through level 4. If you want him to write a bit in a journal, that's probably ok. But I would just do it low key and only if he wants to. It can be deflating for them to work hard at writing, and then have all those corrections to be made. I would let him write if he wants so that he builds up stamina and enjoyment of it (if he truly does like it), but I would not correct the errors. Wait until he's through level 4, at which time you can teach him to go back through his writing and make the corrections based on the Barton rules.

[Lecka]

That is much better than my son also.

 

He is suspected to have dysgraphia also.

 

My son is able to capitalize a first letter in a sentence and end with a punctuation mark of period or question mark. They have worked on that at school with dictation sentences. He is a rising 3rd grader and he is not expected to be doing commas, but is expected to be doing exclamation points. When they do dictation sentences they are supposed to do the capital letter and end punctuation, but in composing, they are not picky. It is harder to do these things when you are also thinking of what to write.

 

But really -- I would also love my son to write that well.

[thundersweet]

Thanks ladies. Y'all have made me feel so much better. I was honestly afraid to post his sample for fear of what people would say. I guess it's not as bad as I'd imagined it!

 

Sandy

[FairProspects]

Much better than mine also, but he is definitely dysgraphic. I don't know if I would take a kid like this through Verticy. I just don't think he needs it and it does not focus as much on the punctuation/conventions/spelling that you are wanting. You might look at something like Bravewriter instead. Hopefully Pen will be along to describe how it has worked with her ds. :)

[thundersweet]

Really? Dysgraphic? Can you explain why you think that? I'm not sure exactly what it is or how it is diagnosed. I'm all ears: )

 

Sandy

[FairProspects]

Oh, sorry, I meant my ds is dysgraphic. IMHO, don't think your ds is at all. I worded that poorly.

 

Our dx came from the neuropsych at the same time we did the dyslexia testing. They often go together.

[thundersweet]

lol! I've been looking and looking at signs and symptoms of dysgraphia and thinking it just didn't fit. Wondering what you were seeing that I wasn't. Thanks for clarifying! At least I learned a thing or two: )

 

Sandy

[thundersweet]

Fair, maybe you could elaborate on why you wouldn't use Verticy with him. I was thinking it looked like a great program for dyslexic students. But what do I know? I don't even have a diagnosis yet. I did just buy Bravewriter from HSBC. I haven't had a chance to look at it though.

 

Sandy

[Mom-ninja.]

That is a wonderful sample of writing. Everything was phonetic. Do a happy dance.

[herekittykitty]

I would also be thrilled if my 8 yo (dyslexic and dysgraphic) could produce a hand-written sample like that. I think it's great!

[thundersweet]

Thanks so much everyone for the encouraging words. I told my son that I posted his sample and what y'all said. He grinned from ear to ear and couldnt believe someone liked it. He kept saying, "really?"

 

He definitely spells phonetically. Is that NOT usually how a dyslexic spells? We've been working with Logic of English for 4-5 months. I haven't noticed it helping with spelling, but maybe it is. I am actually considering a switch to Barton but not sure if that would confuse him.

 

Sandy

[Lecka]

He is spelling phonetically but he is using the correct sounds.

 

He has got all the sounds in there.

 

Sure, some correct spellings are not there.

 

I will see: play spelled phonetically but no l; final consonants just not the right sound.

 

Basically I see missing consonants in consonant blends/clusters, and I see substitutions between several consonants: k, t, d, g, p. He will think a word ends with p but really it ends with b.

 

This is all very improved with my son but I see it. That is one common pattern of spelling mistakes in dyslexia (I have read).

 

Another is getting the sounds in the wrong order. My son does not do that -- sequencing is not a problem for him.

 

Then missing vowels or substituting vowels. My son is fine with vowels, he just does this with consonants (besides a little e/i that I think anyone would do).

 

So to see all the consonants in there and in the right order ---- well that is an awesome sample for phonetic writing!

 

He is also trying to use patterns that are more difficult (or at least he is aware of them). Like play spelled plae. It means he didn't think pla was right. That is really good. I am happy with errors showing that my son knows that the most phonetic spelling is not right, even if he doesn't quite get the correct spelling. It is a step in the right direction and shows he is getting there.

[Lecka]

His handwriting is great.

[thundersweet]

I have taught him to sound out as he writes and spell by syllable. If he really takes his time to hear the sounds, he can do a decent job like the sample above. I think the e in play....he was thinking he needed the e to make the a say its long sound. You are right, I think the process he had in his mind was going in the right direction. But, then he left lik and didn't use the e to make the I say the long sound of I. He definitely knows that rule. More time and practice should help him tremendously. Also, he has been practicing writing with capitalization and punctuation in LOE dictation sentences. That has not carried over yet but he did see me translate his sample to give the screener. He said, "oh darn, I forgot to capitalize and put the periods." As I wrote he was noticing his errors and saying "ugh, I knew that!" I just told him he did fantastic and not to worry.

 

Does anyone know where to get a sturdy journal with big lines? Not real big but bigger that notebook paper. He needs a little more space than typical paper gives and I like him to use handwriting paper to keep working on letter formation. I have those handwriting tablets but the paper falls out too easily. He loved the idea of writing in a journal.

 

Sandy

 

 

[EKS]

Wow, your son has great handwriting and his spelling isn't as "dyslexic" as some I've seen. It's great that he enjoyed the exercise.

 

I agree with the PP that if he enjoyed this exercise that journaling might be a good place to start. But I wouldn't force it if he doesn't want to do it.

 

If I had it to do over again with my dyslexic son, I would use Step Up to Writing. As it was, we just did writing across the curriculum and never did a formal program as I couldn't find one I could stand. But I think the structured approach to Step Up to Writing would have helped.

[thundersweet]

EKS, thank you! I'll definitely go take a look.

 

Thanks,

Sandy

[FairProspects]

I just think Verticy would be overkill with your ds because it is so gentle and slow (which many dyslexics need because they are also dysgraphic). Even in yellow level, it is still working on getting students to write a 3-4 sentence paragraph. Your ds can already do that and seems to have plenty to say. He would be bored to tears with learning to write a topic sentence for 2 years. A dysgraphic with word retrieval however, can't even consistently find the words for 1 sentence and needs Verticy.

 

My younger son is also dyslexic and I will not use Verticy for him either. He just doesn't have the same issues with finding words. His issues are mostly decoding and encoding.

[laundrycrisis]

ITA, completely. I have a formally diagnosed dysgraphic 10 yo doing Verticy Yellow right now. "A dysgraphic with word retrieval however, can't even consistently find the words for 1 sentence and needs Verticy." Exactly. It's really really hard for him and leads to crying fits because the retrieval issues truly make it that hard. When our son gets to the point of being able to generate what the picture in the original post shows, I will make a cake and throw a party and dance on the kitchen island. Really !

 

 

 

I just think Verticy would be overkill with your ds because it is so gentle and slow (which many dyslexics need because they are also dysgraphic). Even in yellow level, it is still working on getting students to write a 3-4 sentence paragraph. Your ds can already do that and seems to have plenty to say. He would be bored to tears with learning to write a topic sentence for 2 years. A dysgraphic with word retrieval however, can't even consistently find the words for 1 sentence and needs Verticy.

 

My younger son is also dyslexic and I will not use Verticy for him either. He just doesn't have the same issues with finding words. His issues are mostly decoding and encoding.

 

[Lecka]

My son could compose that. But the handwriting is so much better than his.

 

But he did a typing lesson this morning and I showed him a Neo on the Internet. I am officially serious about typing and getting him allowed to type at school.

 

I am inspired.

 

Really, that is much better than he could do, and I think I need to take it seriously.

 

Plus he is in a decent place in his reading right now, thank goodness.

[Pen]

Much better than mine also, but he is definitely dysgraphic. I don't know if I would take a kid like this through Verticy. I just don't think he needs it and it does not focus as much on the punctuation/conventions/spelling that you are wanting. You might look at something like Bravewriter instead. Hopefully Pen will be along to describe how it has worked with her ds. :)

 

 

Okay. Here I am to do that ;)

 

First I would agree on not doing Verticy the way the above looks. If he enjoyed doing the writing, I also agree that it would help to encourage him to do more in a low pressured way, which could be journaling or some other form. I would keep work on spelling and grammar separate from that.

 

I do think Bravewriter might be a good way to go for him. I'll try to link previous threads on that I wrote, describing how it went for my son.

[CraftyHomeschool]

Here is an AMAZING site on the "stages" kids go through in spelling/reading; http://thisreadingmama.com/literacy-development/reading-and-spelling-development/

[thundersweet]

I can't thank you all enough! This is exactly the kind of information I need. Very helpful!

 

Sandy

[Pen]

Here is a thread where I posted some of the process followed in an online Bravewriter course. My son was 10, I believe, at the time he took it--so older than yours. I am not sure what the youngest in the online class was, I do not think younger than 8 and maybe not even younger than 9, but what your son wrote is as good as what many of the younger children's pieces looked like when they started.

 

The process led from writing a preliminary piece like the sample you showed, then into development of one chosen preliminary piece and finally into revision and mop up (with parent help) of spelling and grammar type errors.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/453417-if-you-had-to-do-a-formal-composition-program/page__hl__+longships?do=findComment&comment=4699281

[thundersweet]

Wow Pen, I am impressed with your ds's piece! Are you still doing the online classes?

 

Sandy

[Pen]

Wow Pen, I am impressed with your ds's piece! Are you still doing the online classes?

 

Sandy

 

 

Thank you. Writing was the main homeschool focus this past year.

 

 

We did just the one class online at the start of this past school year. I wish we had done it during summer because it was pretty intensive--except for the first 2 weeks which started very slow.

 

After that, he went on to do a 14 page typed paper on the Vikings of which the longships part was one section--you can tell that he was already anticipating a next section at the end of the longships part. We followed the same method of working, but without the class. The research and writing together lasted the better part of the "fall semester" more or less.

 

He was then going to do one more research paper on another topic (Greek or Roman history or US Civil War were topics he was thinking about) using the same system, but instead ended up writing poetry some of the time--his own thing, no corrections made by me, and I would just listen to him read them, so I would not even see any spelling errors etc. We had used some MCT Island for grammar, and I think that helped to get him interested in poetry.

 

Then in spring, he wrote a few essays, based on prompts, practicing narrative and expository forms, using 6 Trait Writing rubric ideas for revisions.

 

If you click here the page for our state's testing has some free scoring guidelines, samples and so on. samples and prompts, scoring guide --looking at the 3rd grade level could give you ideas when you are both ready--and when ready, some of the prompts were actually fun, in fact the last narrative one he started, he got "into" and made up a much longer story than would have been possible in a test situation, but fine for homeschool practice. It was also helpful to see sample work by peers instead of just writing by adult professionals. However, I do not think he could have done the essays on this model without having done Bravewriter and maybe also his poetry work first.

 

I think that Ruth Culham's Writing Traits books are also excellent, and got one for his level (now age 11), but again that was a stage after the Bravewriter work.

 

After intense work on writing for most of the past year, he is on a break from that (and so am I!!! hip, hip, hoorah!!!), with only math, German, and history planned through the summer--I do not know if any writing will get incorporated over the summer, or what will be next when he gets back to writing in fall. We still use the Bravewriter basic framework of free writing ideas for an essay/narrative, then narrowing and expanding, revising, mop up editing, and so on. And he used the free writing idea to compose poetry (and I used the Bravewriter ideas to allow him to do that freely without looking at it or "fixing it"). The one on-line class seemed to be enough for a jump start for him, and for me to get some ideas about how to draw out more work, detail and so on.