Is Pre-Algebra necessary?

[Arcadia]

I wonder if Paly students are allowed dual enrollment at Stanford, and if so, I suppose the student pays the cost of each class. Maybe some of them opt for Foothill instead, given the cost.

Okay, this is such a derailment....

Paly arrangement is with Foothill College. I believe this is because Paly residents property tax has a bond/parcel tax that pay into Foothill College.

http://www.mvla.k12.ca.us/altprog/middlecollege/Pages/default.aspx

One of dd's college math friends went right from Paly to Stanford...when I met her, I asked her why she chose to (she'd had other good options) & she replied that it was just so comfortable; after all, she'd been crossing the street to take math at Stanford for the last couple of years and it felt like home to her. Ah, the good options some kids have!

It is very near from Paly to Stanford. My boys attend the free art classes at Stanford Cantor Arts Center. Stanford also host the elementary school math circles.

[nrself]

When I went to college (in the early 90s) all that REALLY mattered for admission and scholarships was the student's ACT/SAT score. Much more so than grades, class rigor, activities, or what have you. Has it really changed? Or just in the competition for Ivy leagues and other highly prestigious schools.

 

Nicole

[Arcadia]

When I went to college (in the early 90s) all that REALLY mattered for admission and scholarships was the student's ACT/SAT score. Much more so than grades, class rigor, activities, or what have you. Has it really changed? Or just in the competition for Ivy leagues and other highly prestigious schools.

 

Nicole

 

It does matter for the University of California and California State University system. UCB just have criteria add on to the UC criteria. So it is not just for the Ivy League. Here AP classes are in vogue for public schools for that reason.

[Crimson Wife]

When I went to college (in the early 90s) all that REALLY mattered for admission and scholarships was the student's ACT/SAT score. Much more so than grades, class rigor, activities, or what have you. Has it really changed? Or just in the competition for Ivy leagues and other highly prestigious schools.

 

Nicole

 

 

With the re-centering of the SAT in the mid-90's, that test lost a lot of its ability to discriminate between applicants at the top end. A student can get as many as 4 questions wrong on a section and still wind up with a "perfect" 800. So while SAT scores still are important, colleges have had to increasingly look beyond them in order to decide between similarly high-scoring applicants.

[wapiti]

When I went to college (in the early 90s) all that REALLY mattered for admission and scholarships was the student's ACT/SAT score. Much more so than grades, class rigor, activities, or what have you. Has it really changed? Or just in the competition for Ivy leagues and other highly prestigious schools.

 

It does matter for the University of California and California State University system. UCB just have criteria add on to the UC criteria. So it is not just for the Ivy League. Here AP classes are in vogue for public schools for that reason.

 

Just to be really clear for lurkers and such, I think it's important to distinguish the question of algebra 1 in 8th-vs-9th (unsurprisingly, it's very helpful to have algebra 1 in 8th if a student wants to get to calc BC by senior year, which matters for application to top-tier schools generally) from the question of algebra 1 in 7th-vs-8th (it's less important to have algebra in 7th unless a student wants to get to calc BC by junior year, in order to take more math for which that is a prerequisite. AFAIK that may only matter specifically for math or comp sci majors for top-tier schools, which may be looking for further rigorous math on transcripts).

 

Regarding algebra in 7th-vs-8th in CA, not for me but for others, can y'all clarify your understanding of what really matters for admission to certain (the top but not all?) UC schools - having "just" calc BC, or having DE/calc 3 after calc BC? Or might it depend on major, like other top-tier schools? There must be many students in CA having had alg 1 in 7th and geometry in 8th, such that to be competitive for admission to certain top UC schools a student would really want DE or a calc 3 - is this the correct analysis? I am specifically not counting AP comp sci or AP stats as relevant to a student's math sequence in CA because those APs do not have calc as a prerequisite and thus algebra 1 in 8th, rather than 7th, would not preclude their possibility.

[loftmama]

Whoah, you guys went way beyond Pre-Algebra while I was at the zoo all day yesterday! :lol: I am fascinated by all of it, of course, not just the necessity of Pre-Algebra (to which the answer is, "It depends.") but also to the sequencing of math as this is ultimately what I have in mind.

 

I cannot contribute to the advanced math discussions yet but I do want to respond to regentrude's comment about developmental readiness. Imo, I do think Algebra can be introduced early with fun and games which can then contribute to confidence when delving into the more complex math later. Both my sons thought it was fun to solve the mystery of x at a young age and look for "clues" in the problem. Once they understood the concept of adding and subtracting, it just seemed so natural to add x and y to our games. When their friends came over, they had fun playing "x and y" with the other kids.

 

Thanks for the great links to math texts. There are some out there that look like they teach "Pre-Algebra" in a fun way which my 9yo might like although, for now, I'll just make up problems for him until he's ready for Alg 1.

 

I mainly don't understand why Algebra has to be such a big deal and not taught till later. When I opened my first Algebra book in 9th grade, it was revelatory. It was like my whole world was explained, as if I had been starving for it. The teacher eventually stopped teaching and just put me at the chalkboard. That is to say there is way to teach math that just makes sense and there are ways to teach math that just ruin it.

[Crimson Wife]

Regarding algebra in 7th-vs-8th in CA, not for me but for others, can y'all clarify your understanding of what really matters for admission to certain (the top but not all?) UC schools - having "just" calc BC, or having DE/calc 3 after calc BC? Or might it depend on major, like other top-tier schools? There must be many students in CA having had alg 1 in 7th and geometry in 8th, such that to be competitive for admission to certain top UC schools a student would really want DE or a calc 3 - is this the correct analysis? I am specifically not counting AP comp sci or AP stats as relevant to a student's math sequence in CA because those APs do not have calc as a prerequisite and thus algebra 1 in 8th, rather than 7th, would not preclude their possibility.

 

I wish I could get enrollment numbers from my district on how many kids take "Post-AP Math" vs. AP Stats in 12th after AP Calc in 11th. There are obviously enough of the former to offer a class at the high school rather than just having the kids go to the local CC. Unfortunately, while it's easy for me to get statistics on how many kids take Algebra 1 and geometry before 9th just by looking at the numbers who sit for the required end-of-course exams, there isn't a state test for "Post-AP Math". So I have no idea whether we're talking 10 students or 50 (there are roughly 500 kids per grade).

[Arcadia]

Regarding algebra in 7th-vs-8th in CA, not for me but for others, can y'all clarify your understanding of what really matters for admission to certain (the top but not all?) UC schools - having "just" calc BC, or having DE/calc 3 after calc BC?

 

 

I have no insider info for UC schools. However friends kids that were accepted in the past few years stop at Calc BC and did not do dual enrollment. So there is no success formula so to speak.

This is what UCB explicitly state on their website

"Admission to UC Berkeley is a two-step process: admission (satisfying college and major requirements) and selection.

All UC Berkeley applicants must meet University of California admission requirements

In addition to the basic admission requirements, the campus selects its freshman class through an assessment that includes a holistic review of your academic performance as measured primarily by:

• Your weighted and unweighted UC grade point average (calculated using 10th and 11th grade UC-approved courses only)

• Your planned 12th grade courses

• Your pattern of grades over time

• The number of college preparatory, Advanced Placement (AP), International Baccalaureate (IB), honors and transferable college courses you have completed

• Your level of achievement in those courses relative to other UC applicants at your school

• Your scores on AP or IB exams

• Your scores on the ACT Assessment Plus Writing or the SAT Reasoning Test" (link, bolded mine)

 

ETA:

numbers for my middle of the road district

CST Algebra 1 - 7th grade 77 students, 7.6% of district enrollment

CST Geometry - 8th grade 71 students, 7% of district enrollment

CST Algebra 2 - 9th grade 66 students, 6.5% of district enrollment

 

For Palo Alto unified in case anyone is curious

CST Algebra 1 - 7th grade 33 students, 3.7% of district enrollment, 97% tested advanced

CST Geometry - 8th grade 55 students, 5.9% of district enrollment, 100% tested advanced

CST Algebra 2 - 9th grade 45 students, 4.7% of district enrollment, 98% tested advanced

 

For Cupertino Union which is a K-8 district

CST Algebra 1 - 7th grade 455 students, 23.4% of district enrollment, 95% tested advanced

CST Geometry - 8th grade 483 students, 24.1% of district enrollment, 92% tested advanced

For Fremont Union High which takes the students from Cupertino Union

CST Algebra 2 - 9th grade 640 students, 24% of district enrollment, 80% tested advanced

[Roadrunner]

 

 

I wish I could get enrollment numbers from my district on how many kids take "Post-AP Math" vs. AP Stats in 12th after AP Calc in 11th. There are obviously enough of the former to offer a class at the high school rather than just having the kids go to the local CC. Unfortunately, while it's easy for me to get statistics on how many kids take Algebra 1 and geometry before 9th just by looking at the numbers who sit for the required end-of-course exams, there isn't a state test for "Post-AP Math". So I have no idea whether we're talking 10 students or 50 (there are roughly 500 kids per grade).

 

In our school district only GATE identified kids are allowed to take Algebra in 7th grade. That would mean top 20% of class, approximately.

[Crimson Wife]

For whatever reason, my district only lists the total number of tests given in a particular course without specifying how many in each grade take them. So I can see that 75% of students take algebra 1 before 9th, but I cannot see the precise breakdown between 7th and 8th graders. I can estimate it by looking at the percent who take geometry before 9th, but presumably there are a few kids who have to repeat algebra 1 in 8th. Similarly, I can tell what percent of kids take algebra 2 some time during high school, but I cannot tell the percents in 9th, 10th, 11th, or 12th.

[Penelope]

Interesting article about eighth grade algebra.

 

http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2013/03/18-eighth-grade-math-loveless

 

It says that 8.1% of CA seventh graders take the end of year algebra 1 test.

[Arcadia]

Interesting article about eighth grade algebra.

http://www.brookings...e-math-loveless

It says that 8.1% of CA seventh graders take the end of year algebra 1 test.

 

From the article, what is sad is this. "If Common Core means the same curriculum for all, a time will surely come when exceptional math students need an uncommon curriculum that is appropriate for them."

ETA:

Algebra Policy in California 2009 report 20 pages

NRCCTE article "Algebra in middle school: Challenges for average and below average learners"

http://www.nrccte.or...erage-and-below

CFTL 52 page report "College Bound in Middle School and High School? How Math Course Sequences Matter" http://www.cftl.org/...Main_Report.pdf

 

For those interested in the statistics

State Statistics

Algebra 1 at 7th grade, 37,854 students, 8.1% of enrollment, 53% advanced 33% proficient

Geometry at 8th grade, 29,108 students, 6.2% of enrollment, 51% advanced 36% proficient

Algebra 2 at 8th grade, 745 students, 0.2% of enrollment, 58% advanced 24% proficient

Algebra 2 at 9th grade, 32,452 students, 6.5% of enrollment, 38% advanced 31% proficient

 

Some County level statistics

Alameda County - 2,239 students, 14.2% of enrollment

Santa Clara County - 2,729 students, 13.8% of enrollment

San Mateo County - 675 students, 9.8% of enrollment

San Francisco County - 159 students , 4.3% of enrollment

Los Angeles County - 10,719 students, 9.1% of enrollment

 

University of California number of freshman applications data 2013.

UCB 67.658

UCLA 80,472

 

New Freshman Admission data 2013

UCB 14,101 (9,219 in-state)

UCLA 16,177 (9,539 in-state)

 

See links for the data for all the nine UC universities.

[Mandy in TN]

FWIW, I will be 45 this year and the course I took in 7th grade was called Pre-A.

 

Returning to the OP, I have looked at K-12's 7th grade math text and it does seem to be an integrated text that introduces the the basics of and the vocabulary of algebra and geometry. It definitely covers more of this sort of material than Saxon 76. (I am not endorsing K-12 math. The online version is just awful in that a child can multiple guess his way through the course without learning anything. I am just referring to what is covered in the text.) Anyway, if a Pre-A program introduces a child to some vocabulary and easier Alg/geometry topics, then I can see where it will make for a smoother transition to algebra. If a Pre-A text is just more review of elementary math and your child doesn't need that, then I don't know why you would bother.

 

So, I guess this comment falls in both the not-all-PreA-books-are-equal and it-depends-on-the-child categories. However, if you don't use a Pre-A program and the elementary math your child used did not cover anything beyond the four operations with whole numbers, decimals, and percents, you may want to consider, just to smooth the transition, spending a little time covering a little more material before jumping into Alg.

 

Mandy

 

[Mandy in TN]

Also, I am a big, big believer in meeting children where they are and moving them forward from that point. If you have a home educated child who is not ready for Alg in 7th grade, then I do not believe that it will be productive to force him to take Alg just because it may be the norm at the school down the road to place 7th graders in Alg. If he has dreams of going to a school or into a STEM field where he is behind where he needs to be to take the maths in high school needed for that dream to be viable, then still meet him at his level of ability. Explain to him realistically where he is and where he needs to be and begin immediately to work toward that goal. If he has the ability, then help him get there. If he can't get there, he will need to change his dream.

 

Mandy

[dereksurfs]

FWIW, I will be 45 this year and the course I took in 7th grade was called Pre-A.

 

Returning to the OP, I have looked at K-12's 7th grade math text and it does seem to be an integrated text that introduces the the basics of and the vocabulary of algebra and geometry. It definitely covers more of this sort of material than Saxon 76. (I am not endorsing K-12 math. The online version is just awful in that a child can multiple guess his way through the course without learning anything. I am just referring to what is covered in the text.) Anyway, if a Pre-A program introduces a child to some vocabulary and easier Alg/geometry topics, then I can see where it will make for a smoother transition to algebra. If a Pre-A text is just more review of elementary math and your child doesn't need that, then I don't know why you would bother.

 

So, I guess this comment falls in both the not-all-PreA-books-are-equal and it-depends-on-the-child categories. However, if you don't use a Pre-A program and the elementary math your child used did not cover anything beyond the four operations with whole numbers, decimals, and percents, you may want to consider, just to smooth the transition, spending a little time covering a little more material before jumping into Alg.

 

Mandy

 

 

Yes, Mandy. I completely agree. That is why I don't think we can categorically say Pre-Algebra 'Is' or 'Is Not' needed for every child, at least in it's formal sense.

 

The thing that I would try to avoid is the desire to intentionally force the acceleration when a child obviously isn't ready yet. That always leads to problems in the end. Its really a fine balance we play in giving them enough challenge to meet their rapidly developing brains without overwelming/discouraging them. Too little as well as too much can be a disservice. I don't want our kids taking 'Easy Street' just because its easier on them and us. Yet if they need to slow down and that means they might not compete to get into Stanford or wherever that's ok too.

 

A coworker friend of mine just decided with his son to have him attend our local CC first even though his son is very bright. They both agreed on this for a number of reasons even though he got accepted to multiple university engineering schools based on his good grades, achievements, AP classes, etc... He'll be able to stay at home, save money on all those GE courses and continue to excel where he is. Many have gone before him along this path before attending a university including his father, a software engineer and myself, also an engineer. One of their goals is to have him graduate 'debt free' which is a huge challenge in today's higher education environment. Debt levels for recent college grads has already reached outrageous proportions. And now the fed wants to increase loan rates which will be even worse when trying to pay down debt.

[Trish]

 

 

You may not like it, but that's the reality of the situation today. The level of competition for college admissions these days is absolutely insane. My alma mater only accepted 5.8% of applicants this year, and even the local Cal State has gone from accepting 2/3 of applicants to rejecting 2/3. If I wait until 9th grade to start algebra 1 with my kids, then that would signal to colleges they are in the bottom 25% of their peers (because algebra 1 in 8th is the standard for the entire state).

 

Perhaps it would be better in general if schools backed off from algebra 1 in 7th/8th, but until that happens, homeschoolers need to be mindful of how their children will be seen vs. their competition.

 

It seems California is acknowledging the reality of its own situation, and the fact that pushing algebra early has been less than helpful to its students. The article linked below is titled, "California Abandons Algebra Requirement For 8th-Graders."

 

Of course if your child is CAPABLE of advanced work early, I see absolutely no reason to hold them back, have at it! Hopefully they won't run out of revelvant math to take in their senior year. If you finish calculus as a junior, you don't really want to lose that "calculus edge" if you're going to be taking advanced calculus as a college freshman.

 

If you're worried about them getting into the ivy league or other types of hyper-competitive schools, then I think the idea of taking algebra in 7th grade as a "signal" to them that your kid is of course "top tier" is less important than helping to find them something that will make them genuinely stand out. Like a unique hobby, or start a small charity or something of that nature. Being one of quite a few kids who happened to be ready for algebra in 7th (even though other equally talented kids may have taken it in 8th or even 9th) does not really set them apart in any real sense.

 

But the damage in pushing them too early can be significant. Especially if the major concern is "signaling" the theoretical colleges. You may not be the type of parent who falls for that type of pressure, but you bet some parents will, and it will be to the student's detriment.

 

http://www.mercurynews.com/education/ci_22509069/

[MarkT]

So called Pre-algebra is a transition course before High School Algebra I.  For the top 25-30% Math capable students it should also include some basic Algebra topics as well to make it a honors course.  I believe the current trend of rushing students into HS Algebra is a mistake.  Each student needs a solid foundation to build upon.  My son's K-8 charter school did this last year.  I volunteered to tutor Algebra there. Many students I tutored struggled with basic concepts (like fractions and percent) that should have been learned and internalized before taking ever attempting Algebra.  The placement exam they used was way too easy. I mentioned that to them and they have since raised the bar on the placement test. This is better for both the students and the teachers.

 

Saxon Course 3 book has pre-algebra plus the Algebra topics.  Also look for the term "accelerated 7th grade math".

 

[KSinNS]

Really enjoyed this thread, and thought my own experience in defence of pre algebra might be helpful. 

 

Back in the dawn of time (the 80s :-}) I changed schools 4 times between grades 5 and 8. Where we lived, the schools were by no means advanced, but the school I was in for Grade 6 was very (very) behind. Anyway, I did a standard Grade 5 curriculum (fractions, early decimals), essentially repeated it for Grade 6. In Grade 7 I went to a private school which went straight to Algebra. I actually did great in algebra (I'd done poorly in math up to that point but algebra played to my strengths-problem solving-and hid my weakness-complex arithmetic), but when I changed schools again in Grade eight, I went "back" to a pre algebra type course. Nearly failed that, but with the help of my excellent teacher and diligent mother, learned all the stuff I'd missed from Grades 6-8 (namely, ratios, percents, working with decimals, square roots, exponents, etc not to mention fixing my weaknesses in math facts.) Anyway, I did really, really well in math after that. 

 

I have blessed that pre algebra through most of my life. Back in the 90s, the GRE exam math section was largely "pre algebra". I also found I used those pre algebra skills in all my science courses. As well, in our neck of the woods (Atlantic Canada) most universities have a "math placement exam" to try to account for the varying skills found in kids from different schools. The exams largely reflect arithmetic skills, pre algebra and early algebra skills (they are usually written to a grade 9 or 10 level) and they are pretty good predictors of success in higher level courses. 

 

My point is that sometimes kids can do well in algebra even missing many higher arithmetic things. However, the pre-algebra skills are useful and important. I suspect it matter less what you call the course than that a kid can do those things. Also, it's much easier for a kid with a solid foundation to move quicker through higher level material, than to accelerate early, miss some basic skills, and then have to go back and fill those in. 

 

My two cents, anyway.