What to do for math? Switching from Saxon to ???

[Wonder]

This has been my first year homeschooling my 8 y.o. third grader, who was previously in PS until October of this past year. Math has probably been the most challenging as far as figuring out what works for her/us. We first tried TT 3, as someone I know raved about it. In just the first few days it became very evident that it was NOT going to work for us. My DD needed an actual person to teach her. So we switched to Saxon 3 and that has gone pretty well up until more recently.

 

Basically, my DD has gone from math being her favorite subject in public school to hating math! When I ask her why, she basically replies that math was more "fun" in school. They did more games (involving lots of students of course), she didn't have to do a worksheet EVERY day, and she liked the Rocket Math. I think with Saxon, things started to become not so fun when they started drilling several multiplication sets, as well as subtraction and addition being mixed in. It was too confusing for her. I have since printed my own multiplication sheets and we're just working on one set of facts at a time. I haven't done everything in the Meeting Time, but just some things here and there unless she already knows it. I already am quite sure we won't be using Saxon next year, because I could see my DD having a hard time writing the problems on a separate paper with 5/4.

 

In looking at all the different maths and I'm overwhelmed. I showed my DD some of the different ones (Horizons, BJU, CLE, MM, Abeka, etc.), and she liked the "look" of Horizons the best. BUT I don't want to choose a curriculum just on visual appeal. I, at first, was pretty interested in Horizons, but I think it might move too fast for her? I don't want to miss out on good understanding, just to "move ahead." I'm also concerned that some concepts won't have enough teacher help with Horizons. So, I've recently become much more interested in CLE. But many users are saying it needs to be supplemented with something like Singapore? So now I've looked into Singapore, but am SUPER confused by all the different "types" or "brands"? :confused1: Which one would be the one to use? And can Singapore be started in 4th grade or is it a math that you have to use from the beginning?

 

Thanks for any advice any of you might have to offer! :laugh: We're at Lesson 107 out of 140 Saxon Lessons. I almost don't even want to finish it (due to the grumbling), but I know we should in order to cover the rest of "third grade" concepts. And, of course, we're still focusing on mastering multiplication and then division facts. Next year we're planning to homeschool all 3 of our girls. I'll have a 4th grader and two 1st graders. So doing the "same" math for all of them would probably be good.

[PentecostalMom]

We switched from Saxon to Horizons a couple of weeks ago and dd loves it. She loathed Saxon. I don't think it moves very quickly and has plenty of review built in. The Teacher's Manual tells you what concepts are introduced when and what you as the teacher/parent need to do. It is very user friendly. I have used both Saxon and Abeka and while they are both colorful, Abeka has a greater number of problems and moves a tad more quickly. My dd is having no problems with Horizons and is doing about two lessons per day. We did purchase the additional worksheet packet and she does those as well. Some days there are two extra pages from the worksheet packet in addition to the lesson and on those days we only do one lesson. She is fairly independent after I give short verbal instruction. Also, Horizons is 20% off this month through the publisher, or on Homeschool Buyer's Coop where you would also get SmartPoints.

[joyfulmomSDG]

Hi! We are using Horizons this year with our 3rd grader and I understand your concern with the "teacher help" issue. It's a bit vague...to say the least! I was planning to move to another program next year (Abeka) which has the basic lesson instructions at the top of each student page. After taking a look at the Horizons 4 level, it does seem to have the same type of format. The teacher instructions even say something along the lines of "read the explaination for lesson X together and have the student complete the sheet". I am really glad we are sticking with Horizons because I really didn't want to have any gaps. Although it is a worksheet style curriculum, the activities are varied and spiraled so there is constant reinforcement/practice of concepts. Honestly, math for us is just a "get it done" type of subject so we can move on to history, science, etc... (p.s. Saxon was a total bust for my older daughter in the 5th/6th grade range so I haven't had a ton of experience to compare)

[Wonder]

We switched from Saxon to Horizons a couple of weeks ago and dd loves it. She loathed Saxon. I don't think it moves very quickly and has plenty of review built in. The Teacher's Manual tells you what concepts are introduced when and what you as the teacher/parent need to do. It is very user friendly. I have used both Saxon and Abeka and while they are both colorful, Abeka has a greater number of problems and moves a tad more quickly. My dd is having no problems with Horizons and is doing about two lessons per day. We did purchase the additional worksheet packet and she does those as well. Some days there are two extra pages from the worksheet packet in addition to the lesson and on those days we only do one lesson. She is fairly independent after I give short verbal instruction. Also, Horizons is 20% off this month through the publisher, or on Homeschool Buyer's Coop where you would also get SmartPoints.

 

 

 

So did you do most of Saxon for the year and then just switched without finishing Saxon? When I looked at Horizons, I think I would have to go "back" to their 3rd grade book, which I really don't want to do. I think if I finished out Saxon 3, my DD would be more ready for Horizons 4 (if we went with that). I'm also interested in Math Mammoth, but so far don't understand how different that is from Horizons or CLE. Looking into it. :)

[LBoogie]

Well, we just switched from Math Mammoth to CLE, and my daughter actually said today, "Math is fun!" I don't know that it is actually "fun," but she doesn't dread it, there are no more tears and I see her confidence increasing. She really needed the spiral.

[jennynd]

I used Saxon briefly with DS. Even I was bored with Saxon. It was the same thing everyday. We switched to Singapore. Try their placement test to see if she enjoy that style of questions.

[Wonder]

Well, we just switched from Math Mammoth to CLE, and my daughter actually said today, "Math is fun!" I don't know that it is actually "fun," but she doesn't dread it, there are no more tears and I see her confidence increasing. She really needed the spiral.

 

 

Since it's the end of the year (almost), were you almost done with the MM book for the year? How long have you been using CLE?

[PentecostalMom]

 

 

So did you do most of Saxon for the year and then just switched without finishing Saxon? When I looked at Horizons, I think I would have to go "back" to their 3rd grade book, which I really don't want to do. I think if I finished out Saxon 3, my DD would be more ready for Horizons 4 (if we went with that). I'm also interested in Math Mammoth, but so far don't understand how different that is from Horizons or CLE. Looking into it. :)

 

 

We were on lesson 22 of Saxon 2. My dd would be in 1st grade in ps (turned seven last month). I did the Horizons Readiness Evaluation and she placed in Horizons 1, that is probably why we are easily doing two lessons per day. I do not expect to continue this pace forever. I could have possibly started her in the 2nd book (the student books are a set of two workbooks) but I chose to run her quickly through the first one. I have read many reviews on this forum and others that Horizons is advanced. I don't know how much stock I put in that, but I can say that Saxon was painfully slow. I would rather her go quickly through these lessons and have a firm foundation than try to place her ahead. There are only 160 lessons for the year, so 80 per workbook.

 

You can finish out what you are doing and then do the evaluation and see where she places, or you can do it now and then again later. I think if I were that close to the end, I would trudge on through. As an alternative, you could start her in the 2nd book of 3rd grade and run her quickly through it over the summer. That is assuming you take a summer break. I really think they are short and succinct lessons and that it would not be difficult. There are tests every so often and you could start off with the tests and let her move to the next section if she scores well.

 

We tried Math Mammoth as well. I didn't like all the printing and figuring out what we were to do each day. I suppose since my olders used mostly Abeka I am used to the workbook format with the TE. I also am wary of "newer" programs. I like to stick with the tried-and-true.

[Wonder]

We tried Math Mammoth as well. I didn't like all the printing and figuring out what we were to do each day. I suppose since my olders used mostly Abeka I am used to the workbook format with the TE. I also am wary of "newer" programs. I like to stick with the tried-and-true.

 

 

I thought Math Mammoth had textbooks/workbooks? Light Blue Series, I think? Anyone out there have experience with Horizons 3rd grade and up? Especially regarding the Teacher's Manual? How much time does it take on average to "teach" a lesson?

[dereksurfs]

Our dds really enjoy CLE after switching from MUS. While not required to use supplements I think it can benefit any program. We also use Hands on Equations (HOE) which helps introduce variables at a younger age. We've never tried Horizons to compare.

[Wonder]

Are Cathy Duffy's reviews worth taking into consideration? I noticed CLE isn't in her "Top 101" but maybe that doesn't mean anything?

[wapiti]

 

I thought Math Mammoth had textbooks/workbooks? Light Blue Series, I think?

 

The Light Blue series is organized by grade level and would be the choice for using MM as a main math program. In contrast, the Blue series is organized by topic and would be a good choice for using MM to supplement. Both "Light Blue" and "Blue" are worktexts - they are a combined workbook and textbook in one book. The instruction is written directly to the student - MM has no separate teacher manual. They can be purchased already printed and bound or they can be purchased as PDFs that you print yourself.

[LBoogie]

We started homeschooling in January, after pulling my daughter from public school 2nd grade at Christmas. We did two months of MM, and now almost two months of CLE. I will say that MM looks like a great program for some moms and some kids. I am not mathy, in the least, however, and I found myself at a loss at how to teach concepts if she didn't get it the first time. (And since MM is primarily mental math, I did not learn math that way and I was not very confident in my teaching abilities.) There is no script or parent hand-holding (but many parents do not need that.) I also found myself wondering if she was remembering what we were learning, since it is mastery. AND there are a LOT of problems on a page. Math was becoming a dreaded part of our day.

 

I saw a difference in her attitude pretty fast once we switching to CLE. The spiral is wonderful for her. She is encouraged by the things she already learned, and there isn't too much of the new topic to be overwhelming. I love that they schedule in fact drills every single day.

 

Honestly, I wonder if I would have been more confident in math if I had had CLE as a kid.

[Wonder]

I'm so torn. I think my DD would do well with CLE, but I'm pretty sure she would have to do level 300 if we started it now. I'm tempted to just switch now, so we can move quickly through "3rd grade" (skipping stuff she already knows) during the summer and then be ready for 4th in the fall. Has anyone else done something like this so late in the season? The rest of Saxon IS new stuff, but she seriously just hates it. I guess we have about 33 lessons left, which would take more days than that to cover because I try not to cram tests and lessons into one day too often. Plus, she needs to get more caught up on her multiplication facts before doing some of the lessons in Saxon. Even if we did Horizons, it would be the same story.

 

Thanks for helping me "think" this through. :)

[Wonder]

I haven't had her take the placement test...yet. Just looking over it, I don't think she would pass the 300. At least not without finishing Saxon. I don't think Saxon has made her feel "bad" in math, but before (in public school) she always felt like she was one of the "best" in the class. And she has always scored higher in math on standardized tests compared to language arts. It seems like she's more of a "math" person than "language," kwim? Saxon is very boring to her, and believe me, I've tried to make it as "fun" as I could. I wonder if I could just order some of CLE 300, but I would have no idea how to figure out which ones I would need.

[Wonder]

After all the programs we have tried, I can honestly say CLE, R&S, and TouchMath are the only keepers.

 

Did you happen to try Horizons?

[LBoogie]

I decided to kill MM when I realized that it was causing problems in our homeschooling relationship and she was starting to hate math and "feel stupid." Not worth it to keep going. (We are really new at this homeschooling thing anyway.)

 

When I ordered CLE 200, I just started her at 206. Even though it covers things that she hadn't learned yet (like simple geometry) it has been easy to catch her up, since it is spiral and not overwhelming.

[krismoose]

I haven't had her take the placement test...yet. Just looking over it, I don't think she would pass the 300. At least not without finishing Saxon. I don't think Saxon has made her feel "bad" in math, but before (in public school) she always felt like she was one of the "best" in the class. And she has always scored higher in math on standardized tests compared to language arts. It seems like she's more of a "math" person than "language," kwim? Saxon is very boring to her, and believe me, I've tried to make it as "fun" as I could. I wonder if I could just order some of CLE 300, but I would have no idea how to figure out which ones I would need.

 

 

My ds was using Saxon 3 at his part-time school and it was not going well either. I had heard that saxon 54 is comparable to CLE 3, so when we brought him home full-time, after looking at the placement test, I looked at the samples of the LUs and started him at 208. We're still skipping some parts but it's much more pleasant for us both to finish out the year this way. He might have gone right into 300 if his math facts were more solid. :)

[letsplaymath]

May I offer a slightly off-topic suggestion? No matter which math program you end up doing, I suggest that you do as much as you can together, orally or on a whiteboard, having the student explain her thinking as she works through a problem.

 

Most of my children dislike workbook arithmetic when forced to do it on their own. Their minds wander, and it takes them half an hour to work just one or two math problems. Nagging doesn’t help, because as soon as my back is turned, they end up staring out the window again. Rather than turn into the textbook police, I developed the habit of doing what I call Buddy Math: my daughter and I take turns working the problems in her workbook—mine, hers, mine, hers, and so on down the page. As we work, we talk out loud, describing our thoughts and reasoning.

 

Putting the process in her own words fixes the mathematical concepts in a child's mind better than any amount of demonstration that you as the teacher might do. Buddy Math does take longer (at least, for the parent) than just sending the student off to do a worksheet, but then you can get away doing only a few problems on each topic, just as many as you need to see that she understands. I firmly believe that three or four problems well-explained make for better practice than a whole page of dawdling and foot-dragging---and it surprises me how much fun a workbook can be when we do it snuggled together on the couch.

 

Some parents worry that sharing math lessons will make their children dependent or keep them from learning to work on their own. I find that my students have a natural desire to be independent, and they do learn to work by themselves, especially on their own interests. But life is easier for all of us if they get a little help on the things they don’t enjoy. This is true for everyone, isn’t it? I, too, find it easier to do an unpleasant task (like exercising or cleaning house) when I work with a partner.

[WildLotus]

I tried Saxon for dd's first grade. I dropped it at the end when I realized it was making us both want to cry. We switched to Math U See and she has flourished and finished over half of Alpha without a problem, except for the little one stealing her blocks.

[nomadgirl]

I have always used ABeka with my DS 10. The teachers manual is great and gives ideas of different things to do. Everyday there is a speed drill and DS loves trying to beat the clock.

[TraceyS/FL]

I had always heard that the first 4-6 weeks of a math text were review from the prior year, and the last 4-6 weeks are previews of what will be taught next year.

 

I've rarely heard bad about horizons if it was a good fit for the child/teacher.

 

And, i'd not sweat the starting back at 300 for the CLE - ordering it now, and switching and doing it over the summer will make next year go easier anyway. Even if you just did it every other day!

 

As for MM - my youngest is going thru some of the blue books for fact review and to regain her mental math skills, Maria Miller suggested that she start with Sub 1, then go into Sub & Adding (I think those are the right names). She passed the MM tests for 1st and 2nd - except in the fact drill area and in the 2nd grade stuff she had never seen before. Maria seems to think that doing the blue books in in the order she is doing them will have her ready for 3A.

 

Whoever said they couldn't teach Singapore because they hadn't learned that way - I hear ya - BTDT, have the 2A book here to prove it! LOL!! I think I could do it NOW, after 9 years of teaching math though! LOL!!

 

But my main advice - don't get caught up on the grade level thing. Make sure you have a firm foundation before moving ahead - then feel free to skip/skim what you know you guys already know!

[shinyhappypeople]

Another option is McRuffy math. There is relatively little writing (one side of one page / day), lots of variety, it incorporates lots of puzzle-type stuff (pentominoes, tangrams, pattern blocks) and games. My DD thought it was very fun. When she was using it, math was her favorite subject. Then I switched. Now she hates math, so we're switching back to what made her happy :)

 

Another option is to use a series like "Kitchen Table Math" or Math on the Level and teach without workbooks or textbooks.

 

CLE was a bust for us. It is A LOT of writing. DD needs a more hands-on approach without too much writing. MM was also a bust for the same reasons, though I think Maria Miller is brilliant at explaining concepts. I'm thinking about getting a few of her blue topic books as a teaching resource for ME. I won't make DD do any more MM worksheets, though. It was just too much pencil and paper.

[Wonder]

No matter which math program you end up doing, I suggest that you do as much as you can together, orally or on a whiteboard, having the student explain her thinking as she works through a problem.

 

 

Great thoughts, Denise. Thank you!

 

I think we're going to try CLE math, but maybe I'll start by just getting a couple of their LUs. I'm guessing I would need to get the Teacher Handbook, too, though?

 

For the rest of this school year I can see myself easily working one on one in math with my DD (doing it "together"), but I guess I'm already feeling a bit overwhelmed when I think about how it will be next year with three kiddos! But I admit I have no idea how it will "look" until we jump in and figure out what works for us. :)