So, why do you not use SL's LA?

[km123175]

It seems (from the signature lines and LA discussions) that lots of folks who use SL don't use their langauge arts?

 

What's not to like? I've not used it - I'm getting my first core in the mail this week.

 

Obviously since it comes with the Core, I'll at least be taking a look at it on my own, but I'd like to hear other perspectives.

 

Thanks,

[lilybrooke14]

I have core B, and I found it to be really random and unhelpful. You pretty much have to supplement it. There aren't really that many lessons or explanations of what's going on. At the first grade level, I would assume that it would start at the beginning and slowly build on that knowledge. Nope. Right from the beginning there were things that she had no concept of. The copywork choices were awful. Lots of dialogue (so quotes) without any explanation of what they were or why they were there.

 

There is the reading for the day, a way to practice the spelling words for the week, and sometimes a random fact presented as a definition with examples. Any kind of true instruction is in the "suggested" (read - completely necessary) extra books. They have ETC and something called Language and Thinking. I don't have that one, but I'm guessing based on the lesson titles that's is along the same lines as First Language Lessons. I stopped even looking at it after a few weeks, so I don't know if it got better.

 

It's very expensive to be used just as a list of readers. I'm still buying the suggested readers next year, but I'll just schedule them myself. We used FLL, WWE, 100 Easy Lessons, and AAS. Next year we'll swap out 100 Easy Lessons with AAR2, and continue on that way.

[boscopup]

I just received Core E last week and have been looking through the LA. This year, we've used an old version of Core D that did not include LA. As I browse it, I can see some good things in it, but... Then I see some really crazy things. For example... Weeks 1 and 2 look good and will be good review for my 4th grader (who will have completed R&S English 4 by then) - you learn about nouns, finding the nouns in a paragraph, figuring out what types of nouns they are, etc. You learn about personification and practice with that. You also learn the parts of a letter and look to see which part is missing in a letter in one of the readers. All that sounds great! Then I get to week 3... It starts out with a dictation passage, which is fine (though I don't know *what* they're trying to teach with it). Then there is a 5-minute mechanics section about pronouns, including this story told without using any pronouns, then the story again with pronouns. It talks about pronouns and antecedents and has you practice that. Fine. Then... we get to the outline. They show two 3-level outlines, have you compare the outlines, then tell you to write 1 page outline at least 3 levels deep with at least 3 capital letters, outlining an experience you've had. Huh? Typically, when learning to outline, don't you start with ONE level outlines? Not THREE?!? This is out of nowhere. Maybe they learned one level outlines in a previous year? I have no idea. Which brings me to the fact that LA is a SKILL subject, so I don't see how 1) you can combine children of different grades or 2) you can jump in at the appropriate level core without having done the LA prior to that. My 4th grader has done one level keyword outlines in IEW, but he is not going to be able to jump into writing from his brain a three level outline!!! That makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

The next couple weeks have some useful things, then I get to week 7. Remember that pronoun thing in week 3? Well, they have the exact same text from the intro down to the passage rewritten to include pronouns. Then they talk about singular/plural, possessive/subject/object. But really, my kid would say at the beginning, "Didn't we do this already?" And my answer would be, "Why yes, son, we did!" :tongue_smilie: Also, in this week they start journaling. Some journal prompts are given. My favorite is: "Write a conversation that a shoe might have with a sock."

 

I'm betting my son's entire conversation would be: "You stink!"

 

:lol:

 

Later, in week 17, you analyze advertising slogans, determining what technique is used (several are introduced in the parent notes, and I guess the kid is supposed to remember it with just one week's intro?), and then you write your own slogan or jingle for an imaginary invention.

 

I could go on... As I said, there are some good parts that I *may* use, but I will continue to go through a systematic grammar program and separate writing program, both of which build a good foundation, something I see lacking in Sonlight's LA. They seem to be randomly throwing things out most of the time. Occasionally something will go with what you're reading, and I like that, but most of it is just trying to fit things in, and it really doesn't make much sense. I also think this would work best with a kid that enjoys a lot of creative writing.

[km123175]

That was especially helpful since core D is what we'll be using soon.

[Kathryn]

Because it's a hot mess.

[km123175]

Kathryn,

 

That made me LOL. :) That's the impression I've gotten, but our first core comes in the mail tomorrow; so, I'm wondering if I should just give it a go, or keep doing what we're doing that's working for us.

 

But I've paid for it. You know? I don't want to waste money. We'll see how it goes.

[Kathryn]

I would have been more descriptive, but boscopup did such a great job. We did K, 1, and 2 (and I looked ahead at the next few years of a friend's) before I couldn't take it anymore. It was just SO disjointed, like someone took a whole bunch of language arts assignments, put them in a hat, and randomly pulled them out to fill in the schedule.

[Lori D.]

It seems (from the signature lines and LA discussions) that lots of folks who use SL don't use their langauge arts? What's not to like?

 

 

 

As a Grammar supplement, I did use the SL LA dictations -- BUT, I highly adapted how I used them. We had the old (2001-2004) SL cores 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Other than the booklists, those dictations were the only thing I ended up using out of the SL IGs. I quickly discovered I am a DIY kind of homeschooler, especially in the younger grades, and due to having a DS with LDs.

 

I did not find anything else in the LA IG's to be useable for us. Spelling, Writing and Grammar instruction was neither incremental, orderly, or detailed in enough information for the teacher -- it all seemed very random and haphazard. The Writing assignments were very weak and not very interesting for the most part.

 

The LA in those editions of the cores I used were based on a Ruth Beechick style of teaching out of whatever you are reading -- but that requires a very strong understanding of LA on the part of the instructor, plus a natural teaching ability.

 

When I looked over the I high school level guides (pre-2010 editions), I found the LA IG's to be NOT helpful in the Literature support -- they did not really teach literary analysis elements, the questions did NOT guide into meaningful discussion, nor did the LA IG teach how to write a literary analysis essay (or any type of high school level of writing) in a systematic way.

 

On the other hand, I do think SL has great book lists; the history/geography/bible cores are great for those who learn well from living books; and the elementary grade science packages are helpful for many families.

 

Hopefully, you will be able to glean enough from the SL core you just purchased to make you feel it was worthwhile! BEST of luck with your SL adventures! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Harriet Vane]

I agree with the others. I am a former editor/proofreader. The Sonlight grammar instruction is random, disjointed, has too little explanation, and puts a lot of emphasis on things that don't matter while not covering things that do. For example, what's with identifying the homonyms every day? When compared to FLL or Rod&Staff it's easy to see how far short Sonlight falls.

[Bree]

We use it mostly for keeping up with readers and some of the creative expression. The grammar doesn't really build on itself as well as I like either. I do like the diamond notes that they have though to explain how to write a paragraph though :)

[lifesadream83]

You should get a copy of the Ruth Beechick book "The Three R's." and read it to understand SL's method of LA. Basically they call attention to areas of LA and expect a child will naturally pick up grammar and rules in their exposure to good literature. I would love to use SL LA but so far it is too Christ centered for us as a secular family. I have been purchasing the older Core IG's and using those. However, this year they re did the Landmark book and added the encyclopedia for Core D. I had already purchased all the Core D parts and that encyclopedia on my own before they released that info. So instead of trying to figure out how to fit it in I am selling my old IG on ebay and returning the books not used in the new version and I purchased the IG and new Landmark book. That said it automatically comes with LA now. So now I will have 3 LA programs to use/ choose from.

 

Initially we were using AAS, FLL and Progressive Composition Lessons which is great because they do not add much work to the SL Core which IMO is enough. However, a friend turned me on to Moving Beyond the Page so we are trying that out this year too. SO I own those two and SL D is on its way... I have three to test rotate or what have you LOL....

[mumto2]

We always tried to use it but never came close to completing it. Neither child seemed to work well with it. So many other things to use and enjoy. It never felt complete so I would add a bit and before long we would have dropped it completely.

[Mom0012]

I've never seriously considered it or even looked into it because I have heard maybe one positive review of it over the last 10 years. Also, I really like tailoring LA to each of my children's needs.

[MerryAtHope]

My kids needed a more incremental approach. Sonlight has creative ideas, but my kids needed more direct instruction for writing, spelling, and grammar. The year we used their dictation, I ended up adding a lot of instruction, deciding the methods for approach on my own, and even choosing my own passages at times. I've also found that my kids skill levels would be at different places in different things--so having an "all-in-one" type of program didn't really meet their needs. We needed to work at their pace in various areas.

 

Easy Grammar, Essentials in Writing, and All About Spelling have worked well here.

 

Since the LA comes with, try it out and see what you think. It does work well for some people, and may for you. Merry :-)

[momtofive]

Sorry to hijack just for a bit! ;)

 

Merry, did you end up doing something with dictation, or just stop completely? Just curious, as many have said they liked the value of dictation, but didn't care for the SL format.

 

Thanks, and back to your regularly scheduled thread . . . . . . . ;)

[Incognito]

We had and sort-of used the K level last year, and have and are not using the 1st grade level this year. For K it was a joke. There was nothing there. You read one bob book a week, starting 10 or so weeks into the year (well they are like bob books, but something else, I think). It is very possible they have changed their content in recent years (since we had an old version).

 

At the center of it is Ruth Beechick's book. I have read that, and I know that is what they expect you to be doing. Using her insights and teaching like a teacher with your own thoughts. I LOVE the theory of it, but there are no reminders in the cirriculum about doing any of the good things you should do or how to teach reading or anything. So for me, I read the 3r's book, loved it, but would have had to make a whole cirriculum scheduling the ideas for me to actually implement them.

 

The 1st grade LA I have (from many years ago again) is the same, but with a lot more reading. The little books are fine - my DD likes them - but there is no information for the teacher.

[Ecclecticmum]

*From the Diary of a Rambler:

 

I saw no rentention after a year of ETC, she forgot it. The writing was just TOO much. Getting my daughter to write out her full address 3 times in a sitting, to me was just ridiculous.

 

I think the Sonlight approach and us are just too different.

 

For Literature, writing, creative writing and handwriting (so all the little bits apart from Phonics, grammar and the like) we prefer an unschooly/radical unschooling/child-led/natural learning/project/montessori/waldorf/Oak Meadow way. (yep thats a mouthful, lets just call it the "crazy moms way" :p )

 

I just let my daughter write what she wants, and I tell her how to spell something or write a particular sentence she wants (she then copies it on whatever project shes doing). We use block crayons for school whenever we can for her, and do lots of form drawing. Next year she will change over to stick crayons. Outside of "formal school" (of which we don't have much) she uses whatever supplies she wants, whether its block crayons, pencils or permanent markers.

 

Whilst doing Sonlight my daughter began to HATE writing/drawing, anything that required putting an implement in her hand, she was frustrated and tired. So I dropped it, and stopped using any sort of writing thing (we did FLL orally for a bit before I realized Atlas was getting the boredoms from that.

 

Of course, I'm not saying what we do would work for any child, but it works here, since I became more relaxed and started doing more project based stuff, plus adding an atelier for the kids, my two youngest have had their pre-writing skills (i.e. drawing skills) pick up enormously, and my eldest is doing 2 or 3 writing/handwriting projects a day, and they are self-started, and independant.

 

So stuff that better suit us are things like Eclectic Series (Mott Media), Cosy Grammar, Grammar Land, Bravewriter, Vimala Alphabet/Writing, Enki, Oak Meadow, General Waldorf Resources, Oak Meadows Creative Writing Prompts & bits and pieces. Thats really a list of stuff that intrigues me/what I am inspired by and not neccessarily what I use.

 

I still use both WTM, and Cathy Duffys books, as well as other books for references and ideas every year. If we had to go back to more worksheet type stuff that is scripted, I would just get PHP stuff.

 

So the styles just don't mesh together well. It took me a journey to get where I am (I listened too much to others advice, and kept conforming myself to particular curriculas & peoples standards). I can't even put myself in the eclectic box (after researching that extensively when I was stuck in bed sick).

 

I think Sonlights LA program/kit may work very well for others (I know I definitely love Sonlight the company, and like *most* of the lit they choose) but it didn't work well at all for us. I am using Ruth Beechicks 2 books though (3Rs, teaching young children) sporadically.

 

HTH xxx

[km123175]

You should get a copy of the Ruth Beechick book "The Three R's." and read it to understand SL's method of LA. Basically they call attention to areas of LA and expect a child will naturally pick up grammar and rules in their exposure to good literature. I would love to use SL LA but so far it is too Christ centered for us as a secular family. I have been purchasing the older Core IG's and using those. However, this year they re did the Landmark book and added the encyclopedia for Core D. I had already purchased all the Core D parts and that encyclopedia on my own before they released that info. So instead of trying to figure out how to fit it in I am selling my old IG on ebay and returning the books not used in the new version and I purchased the IG and new Landmark book. That said it automatically comes with LA now. So now I will have 3 LA programs to use/ choose from.

 

Initially we were using AAS, FLL and Progressive Composition Lessons which is great because they do not add much work to the SL Core which IMO is enough. However, a friend turned me on to Moving Beyond the Page so we are trying that out this year too. SO I own those two and SL D is on its way... I have three to test rotate or what have you LOL....

 

\

 

Thanks for that info about the 3Rs book. I have seen it listed as a recommended resource, but I don't know much about it. Maybe I'll grab a library copy for a good read. :)

 

Also, your choices in teh coming year sound a bit like mine. We've got Core D that should be arriving today. We're using some MBtP units right now. We also use MCT Island level now. We really like that set, but I feel like I need a more incremental what to "do"/activities/assignments approach than MCT provides me. We've enjoyed reading it so much though that I expect we'll keep with it and use MBtP for literary analysis.

 

Does SL have any literary analysis (setting, plot, mood, etc.)?

[MerryAtHope]

Sorry to hijack just for a bit! ;)

 

Merry, did you end up doing something with dictation, or just stop completely? Just curious, as many have said they liked the value of dictation, but didn't care for the SL format.

 

Thanks, and back to your regularly scheduled thread . . . . . . . ;)

 

Yes, I pre-taught the passages, used parts of them (so that there were not too many new elements to teach my kids), or sometimes substituted different passages altogether.

 

With the SL dictations, I had my kids copy them for 5-10 minutes the first day--I had them identify things they didn't know (unusual spellings, why a punctuation mark was used etc...), and then used that information plus any additional things I felt they needed to know to teach the passage over the next few days. We talked about spelling patterns, rules for punctuation and capitalization and so on. Then on Friday I had them do the part they had mastered as dictation.

 

Here's a blog post with more explanation.

 

Sometimes I skipped the SL passages and chose something for its literary value instead--I'll get that post up in a few days. There are so many things you COULD do with copywork! You really can build a whole LA around it if the strategy works well for your kids, and you can have a lot of fun with it.

 

HTH some, Merry :-)

[momtofive]

Thanks! :)

 

I'm off to go read you post! ;)