Oh Elizabeth and Ellie

[ktgrok]

Both of you are women I respect, And Oh Elizabeth, you steered me right on the math program for my son. So...two questions.

 

1. Spelling for my son...we never stick with anything, and I'm wondering if you have any suggestions for working on that wtih him. 13 years old, very poor working memory (diagnosed), ADHD inattentive, good reader but was late to read...picked up by the end of 2nd grade, now at college level.

 

2. Where to look when thinking about starting teach my daughter, who is turning 3 next month, how to read. I'm NOT looking to teach her to read now, just want to know what direction I'm going to go in so I can ease into things as we go on, and more importantly NOT do things the wrong way and have to correct them.

 

Thanks!

 

(oh and "spalding" is not a complete answer. I need more specific than that, lol)

[EKS]

Not OhElizabeth or Ellie, but...

 

It is possible that your son has dyslexia. Google "stealth dyslexia" and see what you think.

 

As for spelling, my son has ADD and a poor working memory and is dyslexic. When he was 13, I made him do the first four levels of AAS and I do believe it helped. I would have made him do more, but there was only so much complaining I could take. We did do Sequential Spelling for Adults the next year, which was only slightly helpful. I really think that a combination of AAS and SS would probably have been the best thing for my son. He was also helped by keyboarding everything and using the spellcheck that underlines misspelled words.

 

Here's how I taught my very young son to read (not the same son with the spelling issues). I made a PowerPoint slideshow of the phonograms (in a huge font). Son learned them while sitting in my lap. I made a PowerPoint slideshow of words being made with phonograms. Son learned to read while sitting in my lap. He loved it. Highly recommended.

[ktgrok]

Not OhElizabeth or Ellie, but...

 

It is possible that your son has dyslexia. Google "stealth dyslexia" and see what you think.

 

As for spelling, my son has ADD and a poor working memory and is dyslexic. When he was 13, I made him do the first four levels of AAS and I do believe it helped. I would have made him do more, but there was only so much complaining I could take. We did do Sequential Spelling for Adults the next year, which was only slightly helpful. I really think that a combination of AAS and SS would probably have been the best thing for my son. He was also helped by keyboarding everything and using the spellcheck that underlines misspelled words.

 

Here's how I taught my very young son to read (not the same son with the spelling issues). I made a PowerPoint slideshow of the phonograms (in a huge font). Son learned them while sitting in my lap. I made a PowerPoint slideshow of words being made with phonograms. Son learned to read while sitting in my lap. He loved it. Highly recommended.

 

 

holy hockey sticks! I almost didn't even google it, but hey, the baby was sleeping and I had a minute. Um, yes. Definitely fits everything listed. Definitely! Shouldn't this have been mentioned to me when he was tested for bunches of other stuff? Or maybe his other tests did point to this and I didn't understand that. He has a huge processing problem, and huge troubles with "coding". So he can read on a college level, memorize a spelling list (briefly), but can't copy said list off the board without errors. The oddly spaced words (even now, at 13!), the hatred of physically writing anything, skipping words when reading, mispronouncing them when trying to read aloud, making "silly" errors on tests by not seeing one of the words, all of it. (can't tell you how badly negative numbers went at the beginning of the year).

 

holy cow!

[cave canem]

What type of practitioner diagnoses poor working memory?

[ktgrok]

What type of practitioner diagnoses poor working memory?

neuropsych

[PeterPan]

I'm dastardly tired (unusual for me, I exercised again today), so I may not think of everything I'd normal say (or ramble on about). Anyways, dyslexia and adhd used to be one diagnosis, minimal brain dysfunction. Whether you get it or not is the whim of the DSM and the psych and seems less grounded in common sense reality. You'll hear something like "It can't be dyslexia; he's too strong on his verbal IQ scores." So they split hairs on the head of a fly.

 

(you can tell how much I love the DSM)

 

My first answer is to ask why you're teaching a 13 yo to spell? Seriously, HOW BAD are we talking about? We moms are pretty insanely perfectionist. There's a point where you cut your losses. There's also a point where it's so bad he's non-functional. He might be in-between there, and that's how I'd decide how much more to do. You want to do as much as it takes to get him relatively functional but not so much that you waste valuable time on a lost cause. Somewhere in the last year or so I gave up on spelling. At this point, not only do I not know about my dd's spelling scores, but I don't CARE. She's functional. If he's not FUNCTIONAL, do some more spelling. If he is functional and just doesn't happen to be passing some grade leveled test, move on, give up, now's the time to jump ship on that.

 

As for what to do about it? Freed (Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World) would say harness their VSL side and use visualization. The Eides add to that the idea of kinesthetic memory (meaning the more he TYPES and uses SPELL CHECK on the computer the more his spelling will improve, something I've been told by adults of this type as actually working). I (and the WTM of course) add the idea of dictation (positive, correct dictation) for spelling. Unfortunately, 13 is moving beyond the realm of when they accept long torture sessions. I'd pick your battle and make sure you really need to. Just being honest. If you need to, yes LOE or AAS or SWR or anything of that vein done quickly can be fine. Since I've owned more than I care to admit, I'll admit that I use them all interchangeably, as they are. But don't do more than you need.

 

Next thing. You mentioned a bunch of stuff that you said could be interpreted as dyslexia. My question is on his VISION. Lots and lots and lots and lots of kids who get labeled xyz turn out to have perfectly fixable developmental vision problems. If it's dyslexia, it will be there even after they treat the developmental vision problems. If it's developmental vision, well it makes a whole lot more sense to identify and treat that. You go to a developmental optometrist for a more thorough check. Maybe you've already done this? Maybe you've heard my annoying rants before? COVD is where you find them. Find a good one with local feedback that confirms you've got a good one. Get just a regular vision eval but have them screen. See what happens.

 

BTW, dyslexia in the DSM is reading disorder. They don't care about 80% of the stuff you read about online as dyslexia symptoms. Read the DSM. Copying off the board is a vision symptom. Blah blah.

 

Oh the 3 yo? Go to the phonologicalawareness.org (or is it com?) website and look at their list. Can she rhyme? Does she hear the sounds in words appropriately? I'd be much more concerned about her auditory discrimination at this age than I would be about whether she specifically connects sound to print. Absolutely it's fine to start doing alphabet puzzles and saying the sounds. Love, love, love EKS's idea about how to do that with powerpoint! With my ds I've been going through the sounds since he was little. Yes to alphabet puzzles, because they had us do that for speech. But in his case we actually KNOW he has a problem. They don't have to be reading for you to identify the problems. That's why I'm saying to watch for phonological awareness stuff. In his case, he can't rhyme. We've been working on it. He sort of claps syllables, need to work on that more. They want him to do it for speech. He's 4 btw. Anyways, his issues are enough that we're doing Earobics. So at that age I would just do the basics. Do alphabet puzzles, read nursery rhymes. Play word games and go through phonological awareness stuff and see what she's hearing and what's not clicking in an age-appropriate way. By 5 they can screen pretty successfully for dyslexia, because it's that stuff we're talking about. GET HER VISION CHECKED. Reading is dependent on vision. That optometrist absolutely can do a basic check on her at age 3 and screen for developmental stuff. I had my ds checked a year ago and again just recently. I'm absolutely watching it. It all has to come together, the ability to hear the sounds, process them, and visually connect them to print.

 

When in doubt, turn on audiobooks. But you know that. :)

 

PS. Your ds was not a late reader because you were a bad teacher. There may have been some things going on that caused it. Your next dc may be a late reader or struggle too. Sometimes there are things you can find that are going on where you can help (vision, auditory processing, whatever), but it's not that you did a BAD JOB. And if it happens again, you didn't do a BAD JOB. In fact, given that you've already had one, I'd just expect it and be pleasantly surprised if she reads sooner.

[ktgrok]

Thanks for all that! For the spelling...he has a tendency to misspell, but spell check catches most of it. He has so little written output right now it is hard for me to tell. But I'd say he is functional, mostly. I'd basically given up, and may stick with that approach, lol.

 

Vision: I had him screened at a homeschool conference and they said he has mild convergence difficulties but not enough that they suggested treatment. My eyes were even worse, same problem. 3 year old is going to have a vision appointment soon as we see her squinting one eye when pointing something out and I don't know if it is mimicry of me or because she really has an issue.

 

And it sounds like I'm on the right path with her. Nursery rhymes, alphabet stuff, etc.

 

And thank you for the pep talk. I'm pretty sure she will be different than him (different fathers), but have NO expectations other than she learned the alphabet a lot faster. She has her own quirks though, lol.

[Ellie]

PS. Your ds was not a late reader because you were a bad teacher. There may have been some things going on that caused it. Your next dc may be a late reader or struggle too. Sometimes there are things you can find that are going on where you can help (vision, auditory processing, whatever), but it's not that you did a BAD JOB. And if it happens again, you didn't do a BAD JOB. In fact, given that you've already had one, I'd just expect it and be pleasantly surprised if she reads sooner.

 

Amen and amen!!!!

[Ellie]

Both of you are women I respect, And Oh Elizabeth, you steered me right on the math program for my son. So...two questions.

 

1. Spelling for my son...we never stick with anything, and I'm wondering if you have any suggestions for working on that wtih him. 13 years old, very poor working memory (diagnosed), ADHD inattentive, good reader but was late to read...picked up by the end of 2nd grade, now at college level.

 

2. Where to look when thinking about starting teach my daughter, who is turning 3 next month, how to read. I'm NOT looking to teach her to read now, just want to know what direction I'm going to go in so I can ease into things as we go on, and more importantly NOT do things the wrong way and have to correct them.

 

Thanks!

 

(oh and "spalding" is not a complete answer. I need more specific than that, lol)

 

OH Elizabeth is way smarter than I, but thank you for the vote of confidence!

 

I have only one line of attack: Spalding. Of course ITA with Oh Elizabeth:

My first answer is to ask why you're teaching a 13 yo to spell? Seriously, HOW BAD are we talking about? We moms are pretty insanely perfectionist. There's a point where you cut your losses. There's also a point where it's so bad he's non-functional. He might be in-between there, and that's how I'd decide how much more to do. You want to do as much as it takes to get him relatively functional but not so much that you waste valuable time on a lost cause.

 

Your ds is reading well. Does he *really* need to work on his spelling? Only you and he know whether the answer is "Yes!" or "Life is too short to work on spelling. Spell-check is my friend."

 

If he's motivated, then I'd say give Spalding a chance. I have seen remarkable improvement in people of all ages and learning difficulties when they did Spalding--and I mean *really* did Spalding instead of an self-invented/mushed-up Spalding-esque sort of thing. If he's not motivated, then let it go.

 

All I can add to Oh Elizabeth's excellent suggestions for your almost-3yo, is that it might be helpful, in preparation for formal reading/writing instruction when she's 5 or 6, to teach her to draw circles in the correct direction (beginning at 2 on the clock), vertical lines from top to bottom, horizontal lines from left to right, and to work on her pencil grip.

[shanvan]

I want to thank you all for this thread. I've been going back and forth on whether or not to include spelling as part of Ds's schoolwork this year (9th) and think I'm going to cut my losses as suggested. We just don't have enough time. He was an early reader and is still advanced with great comprehension, but has never been a great speller.

 

Another thing I'll bring up is something I remember from one of SWB's talks. She mentions that some of the problem with spelling is just kids not really checking their work and if you make them check it, or make them spell the word correctly 5 times on another paper, you will notice they begin to check their spelling more carefully. Now, I'm not suggesting doing that with a Dc who has dyslexia necessarily. But, instead of doing a curriculum or program, perhaps addressing the spelling within the writing and simply keeping a list of words that are difficult and consciously teaching those particular words and why they are spelled that way would be a better approach.

 

I think I am going to use that approach and try some of what SWB suggests to see if spelling improves b/c I have called Ds out on mispellings and he has told me how to spell the word correctly, so I know he was just being careless in that case. If I at least insist that he check his spelling, I'll have a better idea of whether or not he is just not bothering to worry about it, or truly unable to spell the words. I suspect, as Elizabeth mentioned, that Ds is FUNCTIONAL, and I think that's what I'm going to discover as I start to use this approach. In that case, I don't want to give up time we could be spending on writing instruction.

[EKS]

I would have him seen by a developmental optometrist. A lot of the stuff you're describing could be vision issues. But they could also be dyslexia (even copying from the board--dyslexics tend to copy letter by letter, which combined with terrible spelling can produce some interesting results). Or it could be a combination of both. Anyway, even if it is only partially vision related, getting vision taken care of could be a real help to your son. I know VT helped my son, though it wasn't a miracle cure or anything.

 

Also, is your son taking medication for his ADD? We didn't start medication until my son was 12, but there were huge improvements afterwards in many areas. Recently he has gone from taking a stimulant medication (which had a lot of undesirable side effects) to Strattera. The Strattera really seems to be helping him with executive functioning--organization, time management, and so on--though I am less certain about whether it's giving a boost to his working memory the way the Adderall did.

 

If it is dyslexia (and perhaps if it is vision as well), you might begin to see some big improvements in the coming years. The Eides call it "late blooming" and it does seem to be true.

[PeterPan]

Katie, you've said this now about the screening and it being mild. I think for getting an actual exam (which I recommend you do), I'd go to a different dev. optometrist. You don't want one who's aching for customers. You want the guy who's so good he doesn't have time to show up at conventions. Or after that little slam I'll just say that sounds a little strange to me. They check way more than convergence, even when they screen. There are a number of parameters, and they check not only whether you can do it but how quickly you can cycle the task.

 

Also, you mentioned he has very little writing. My dd's writing took off this year when we started doing metronome work for EF, working memory, etc. Like totally BLOSSOMED in ways I had NEVER expected. If you have an ipad, ipod, whatever that can take a metronome app, you can do it at home for FREE. Come to the SN board and find the threads. Might give you huge, huge, huge changes. My dd was pencil phobic (on the record, read my posts!) for 8 years, and now she writes sheets and sheets and enters monthly contests. The metronome app. Even if you got a 1/3 of the writing bump we got, sounds like you'd be happy. :)

 

PS. How is his typing? If the typing isn't going well, it's hard for him to have output. Do an online test and check his wpm. That way you have an objective measure. For 7th grade, I think I found only 35 wpm as the end of year score for an A in computer classes (just googling). So if he's testing 35+, he's probably about age-appropriate and functional. If he's not, do some work there. Hard to output if you can't get it out. I talk about this a lot, but I had to switch my dd to Dvorak (more efficient keyboard layout) to get her functional. Now she types her stuff using a bluetooth keyboard and ipad.