justamouse Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I've got a question for you ladies. How far would you travel to a parish? We're looking at a particular area to move to that has a good solid parish and it would be within a fifteen or twenty minute drive from anywhere in the county. However, there is a parish 45 minutes away that we already have a connection to. Like our current parish, it is run by Dominicans and we know several families that belong there. One of the priests there is a dear friend. The church is beautiful and we'd love to baptize our children there and have the girls get married there. Needless to say we also have a close connection to the Dominicans in general (I'm actually considering joining the 3rd order). But, it's 45 minutes away and that just seems like a long way to travel to be part of a community when there are no real issues with the local parish (the priest is orthodox, the parish has an active community, etc). Thoughts? Experience in this? It would all depend on the kids and the chaos of the house. When we lived that far from church, my one daughter would get carsick on Every Drive. Or, they get wiggly/bouncy. You also would have to allow for food because you're talking about three hours and someone is going to get hungry. If we decided to, I would start planning two days previous. Get the clothes ready/ironed, baths done before. Then leave that whole day to church. Make sure dinner is in the crockpot for when you get home. It can be done, you just have to plan for it . I would also try the local parish though, because I truly love serving my local community. You may grow friends there, get involved, and learn to love the parishioners just as much. Then every month or two you can visit your friends in the parish that is further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Ok, can we talk Epiphany? I love the idea of blessing the house and/or chalking the house. I read one thing that said you can sprinkle holy water in each room and then you chalk the inside of exterior doorways. Something else said you chalk the outside of exterior doorways. And dh didn't think we could bless the rooms with holy water without our priest. Help. :) Father has the prayers all copied out and tucked in the bulletins so we can bless the house. The kids sprinkle the Epiphany water (no flailing/throwing the water!), Dh writes the inscription on the lintels. 20 C+M+B 13. We also have incense. Here are the prayers. (the letters are for the names of the three wise men, Caspar, Melchior and Balthasar) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleWonders Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Father has the prayers all copied out and tucked in the bulletins so we can bless the house. The kids sprinkle the Epiphany water (no flailing/throwing the water!), Dh writes the inscription on the lintels. 20 C+M+B 13. We also have incense. Here are the prayers. (the letters are for the names of the three wise men, Caspar, Melchior and Balthasar) The inside of the doors? Every door if the houes (so bedrooms and bathrooms)? Or just the inside f the doors leading outside? Do you do the outside lintel of the front door so you can see it as you enter the house? Yes, I lie awake at night thinking about these things. ;) ( It is lie, right? Lay/lie are the two that trip me up all the time.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitilin Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 MLW, I dunno about the Catholic devotions part, but I can definitively assure you that it is, in fact, "lie" in this case. ;) :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 The inside of the doors? Every door if the houes (so bedrooms and bathrooms)? Or just the inside f the doors leading outside? Do you do the outside lintel of the front door so you can see it as you enter the house? Yes, I lie awake at night thinking about these things. ;) ( It is lie, right? Lay/lie are the two that trip me up all the time.) Outside leading in. Well, my front door is more formal than most as an old Victorian. It's one of those two door things with a sitting/receiving bench in between. We write it above the second door because it's the one with an actual lintel. For the side kitchen door, we write it on the siding. :D Also, Father puts the blessed chalk in a basket in the narthex so that you can just bring a piece home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithr Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Hi ladies! Happy new year! I started reading Forming Intentional Disciples. I'm having a bit of a hard time with the first chapter just because it is so full statistics and I find it hard to concentrate on that for a prolonged period of time, but I'm muscling through. I remember that after I got through that first part, things got more engrossing. I am going to try to power through the book so I can have the first of my 52 books be this one! That's just my own little thing, since I can spend more time reading this week as we are only doing school at half speed and we don't have any outside obligations starting up until next week. Anyway, I also thought I'd tell a funny story about going to mass today. We had decided beforehand that there was no way we'd make it to the 11:00 a.m. mass at our parish this a.m. after staying up late. I know that is pathetic! Everybody is going to have to launch into much earlier (for us) waking times but we just weren't going to start on New Year's day. So dh looked it up and at another parish near us they were having a 2:30 Spanish mass. Well, we went to Spain this past summer so we were all up for that. So we pull into the parking lot at 2:25 and there are very, very few cars there. So questioningly we go into the church. The actual church is locked! but the chapel isn't and there are couple people in there. Someone comes in and looks very confused and starts wondering if they are having mass. But there's no priest or anything anywhere. So everyone starts talking about it and someone comes by and says I think they announced on Sunday that the mass was moved to 1:00 instead of 2:30 (apparently a Spanish speaking priest from another parish comes to say the mass, so the priests who actually live there aren't involved). The sign outside the church still said Mass on Jan 1 at 2:30 and several people, like my dh, had consulted the church's website so they hadn't changed it there. So there were about 25 of us all gathered in the narthex wondering what to do . So I got a little mad, thinking, wow, this is a Holy Day of Obligation and this might be some people's only chance to get to mass today. What a rotten way to start off the the new year! I said to my 20 yo son, go around to the rectory and knock on the door and tell the father we need someone to say mass for us! So he did. He came back though and said there was no answer. So another lady, spanish speaking, said but there's a car there, so it looks like someone might be in, so she went around with my son and really banged on the door. Well this poor unsuspecting priest was taking a nap! Anyway, he came out apologized for the miscommunication and said a very quick but lovely mass for us all. He gave a short but really nice homily. He had a good sense of humor. He recruited my son to be lector. My son actually talks about becoming a priest one day, but he actually gets really nervous about reading out loud in front of people. He's dyslexic and he can struggle with that. Also, he just got his wisdom teeth out and this is the first day that he wasn't all swollen up! He had trouble moving his jaw though. But he did a good job reading anyway, though he read a bit too fast. Anyway, it turned out to be a really nice mass with everybody, many strangers to each other, feeling jolly and hugging and wishing everybody else a happy new year. People were going up to father afterwards and giving him big hugs and apologizing for interrupting his nap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieSong Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Please pray for the son of good friends of ours. Rafe is 23, has cystic fibrosis, and has been in the hospital for weeks. He is now going into septic shock and the last message we got from his sister is that he is dying. Please pray for him and his family! His mom is a saint who has lived at the hospital for a couple of months, sleeping in a recliner. They are devout Catholics. His older brother is a priest. I am sure he has received the anointing of the sick. My heart is just breaking for the family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithr Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Praying! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleWonders Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Praying Patty. :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nono Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Praying here. (And have for other recent requests as well.) Not keeping up well these days. :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieSong Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Rafe is having surgery today to remove infection from his stomach. Doctors are saying there is a ten percent chance of this working, no chance for him if it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter's Moon Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Prayers, PrairieSong! Has the Vatican endorsed (probably not the right word) the Medjugorje Apparitions? I searched briefly, and I see in 2010, the Vatican began their investigation. But, I haven't found anything more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieSong Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Prayers, PrairieSong! Has the Vatican endorsed (probably not the right word) the Medjugorje Apparitions? I searched briefly, and I see in 2010, the Vatican began their investigation. But, I haven't found anything more. No, the Medjugorje apparitions have not been approved by the Vatican. Thank you for your prayers for Rafe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briva Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 EWTN article (1996) on Medjugorje. I have been researching these for dh, a big hurdle for him. I didnt know there was a 2010 investigation. http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/DECORMIR.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Please pray for the son of good friends of ours. Rafe is 23, has cystic fibrosis, and has been in the hospital for weeks. He is now going into septic shock and the last message we got from his sister is that he is dying. Please pray for him and his family! His mom is a saint who has lived at the hospital for a couple of months, sleeping in a recliner. They are devout Catholics. His older brother is a priest. I am sure he has received the anointing of the sick. My heart is just breaking for the family. Praying, Prairie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I've got a question for you ladies. How far would you travel to a parish? We're looking at a particular area to move to that has a good solid parish and it would be within a fifteen or twenty minute drive from anywhere in the county. However, there is a parish 45 minutes away that we already have a connection to. Like our current parish, it is run by Dominicans and we know several families that belong there. One of the priests there is a dear friend. The church is beautiful and we'd love to baptize our children there and have the girls get married there. Needless to say we also have a close connection to the Dominicans in general (I'm actually considering joining the 3rd order). But, it's 45 minutes away and that just seems like a long way to travel to be part of a community when there are no real issues with the local parish (the priest is orthodox, the parish has an active community, etc). Thoughts? Experience in this? Since you're moving, is there any way to move closer to this church? I wouldn't want to be so far away. As your family gets bigger and children older, it will most likely get harder and harder to attend. No, the Medjugorje apparitions have not been approved by the Vatican. My sister went there about 7-8 years ago and I researched it because she gave us items from there. I've read a lot about Lourdes and Fatima (especially Fatima) and it is very different. We ended up throwing out everything she gave us because we didn't want it in the house. I do not believe it is from the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Unfortunately, it is impossible because it would be too far of a commute for DH and the housing prices for what we want are way out of our price range. That's too bad. I'm sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieSong Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 My sister went there about 7-8 years ago and I researched it because she gave us items from there. I've read a lot about Lourdes and Fatima (especially Fatima) and it is very different. We ended up throwing out everything she gave us because we didn't want it in the house. I do not believe it is from the Lord. I don't think the Vatican actually said "it is not from God" or at least not yet. They have come out with some negative statements against certain claimed apparitions. Bayside, NY, comes to mind. I try not to pay much attention to those not yet approved. Even with the approved ones, the Vatican says they are worthy of belief, that there is nothing contrary to the Faith, but we are not bound to believe them, as we are Church dogma. We must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, second person of the Trinity, for example, but we do not have to believe that Mary appeared at Fatima or Guadalupe, because even though approved, these things are private revelation. I am not trying to downplay Our Lady! Not at all. Just distinguishing between Church teaching and private revelation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briva Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I was just pointed to this 'Marian apparition' recognized in the EO, http://orthodoxwiki.org/Protection_of_the_Mother_of_God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithr Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Forming Intentional Disciples - I have a question. I've just finished the second chapter. I buy the fact that Waddell's discovery of the problem of Catholics not having a personal relationship with Jesus and hence not being true disciples is the root of the problem in the Catholic Church today and why it is losing numbers, but frankly that is not my personal experience. So this disconnect has me questioning. Half my family left the Church and joined the Methodist Church because they still wanted to have a relationship with Jesus in a pretty traditional way but they rejected the authority of the Church because of issues like birth control, abortion in vitro and the sex scandal (which was the last straw for a couple of them). And I find that a lot around here. There are a lot of Call to Action type folks who are passionate about social justice and in fact seem to be very devoted to their particular interpretation of Jesus that they have embraced, but the thing that galls them is the hierarchy and what they perceive as the stodgy behind the times approach of the church towards things mostly having to do sex. I'm in the Arlington Diocese and pretty much have been all my life (except for the three years I lived in Baltimore and the one year in North Carolina) so I might have a skewed vision of things. What is your impression, those of you who have read the book or are currently reading it? This is important to me because I teach 7th grade RE and I am forever puzzled by why the parents are evening bothering with Confirmation prep when they can't even haul their sorry you know whats to Mass on Sundays. What's the point? How can anyone stand to be so hypocritical???? It is hard for me to have respect for these parents at all!! But I guess that is the remnant of the Catholic Identity thing where it is something inherited rather than a living passionated thing one embraces oneself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I don't think the Vatican actually said "it is not from God" or at least not yet. They have come out with some negative statements against certain claimed apparitions. Bayside, NY, comes to mind. I try not to pay much attention to those not yet approved. Even with the approved ones, the Vatican says they are worthy of belief, that there is nothing contrary to the Faith, but we are not bound to believe them, as we are Church dogma. We must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, second person of the Trinity, for example, but we do not have to believe that Mary appeared at Fatima or Guadalupe, because even though approved, these things are private revelation. I am not trying to downplay Our Lady! Not at all. Just distinguishing between Church teaching and private revelation. Yes, I was only giving my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briva Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I buy the fact that Waddell's discovery of the problem of Catholics not having a personal relationship with Jesus and hence not being true disciples is the root of the problem in the Catholic Church today and why it is losing numbers, but frankly that is not my personal experience...This is important to me because I teach 7th grade RE and I am forever puzzled by why the parents are evening bothering with Confirmation prep when they can't even haul their sorry you know whats to Mass on Sundays. What's the point?...But I guess that is the remnant of the Catholic Identity thing where it is something inherited rather than a living passionated thing one embraces oneself? I know I have always had a relationship with Jesus BECAUSE I was baptized RC and received instruction prior to my first communion. I never had a close relationship to the church (RC) because I was never confirmed. Yet, after my wanderings in the protestant realm I can tell you that as big as the RC is, there are more scandals in the protestant realm that in RC. But there is a deep seated hatred for all things holy in the world and RC gets the most headlines. The local stuff here in non-affiliated churches never hits the mainstream media. But if a bishop or a priest stubs his toe, it hits national news. About the confirmation thing, we noticed that in the Lutheran church we were in. Twenty 10yr olds took the classes with my dd for 2yrs. After they were confirmed we never saw them again. My dd was elated there were so many kids, only to be disappointed year after year, when too many times she was the only one in Sunday school class. Dd actually sat in 3 more years of confirmation, just to fellowship with these kids. Dh and I realized that the problem was their doctrine. For them being baptized and confirmed means you are good to go til you need your last rites. We have a serious relationship with Jesus. We wanted a holy place to worship. If it isnt RC or EO, there is no 'church' on earth and I guess we go on wandering, preaching the gospel like Paul did in his travels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 You have described THE problem we have faced in the protestant world. We use to cling to people (never the pastor or the leadership-they were too busy with the 'business' of the church) that we thought had more Bible knowledge or were mentor-types that could answer our questions or help us resolve issues. There is such a lack of discipleship and study in churches we sought para-church organizations. We see something in the ancient faith that we have been missing. But then having been to 5 different RC parishes we see not all are the same. We've also been to 4 different EO parishes. The only one I do trust is God. I will finish my RC confirmation but do not know about committing to any church, ever again. I will finish the book study on the EO faith at an EO church or study the Bible there. Learning from both (EO & RC) and just wandering down the path and see where God leads me. Sounds so sad, but I am not as sure as St. Paul was when he was traveling sharing the Good News. He knew where the church was. I do not. Is it the gathered Christians? Is it an institution? I'd love some illumination. I don't find that to be sad at all. I think it is a very wise decision. God will lead you where He wants you to be. Continue trusting in Him. I'll pray for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 Forming Intentional Disciples - I have a question. I've just finished the second chapter. I buy the fact that Waddell's discovery of the problem of Catholics not having a personal relationship with Jesus and hence not being true disciples is the root of the problem in the Catholic Church today Now I'm not so sure I want to read this book. What is with the Protestant buzz words? We had a great discussion on "the personal relationship with Jesus" back on the old group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 I was just pointed to this 'Marian apparition' recognized in the EO, http://orthodoxwiki....e_Mother_of_God She's been busy the last couple thousand years. :coolgleamA: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleWonders Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Now I'm not so sure I want to read this book. What is with the Protestant buzz words? We had a great discussion on "the personal relationship with Jesus" back on the old group. I'm finding I'm enjoying the book despite the Protestant buzz words (which I have a visceral reaction to in some settings). She, the author, is coming from what seems to be a fundamentalist (Protestant) upbringing so I'm thinking some of these terms and ideas are common to her. She's also making a point that many Catholics leave because they seek these things that they feel can only be found in the Protestant, and especially the Evangelical, churches. I'd recommend reading it still; personally I had to slog through the first couple chapters (the first moreso than the second) and it got better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryTime Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Forming Intentional Disciples - I have a question. I've just finished the second chapter. I buy the fact that Waddell's discovery of the problem of Catholics not having a personal relationship with Jesus and hence not being true disciples is the root of the problem in the Catholic Church today and why it is losing numbers, but frankly that is not my personal experience. So this disconnect has me questioning. Half my family left the Church and joined the Methodist Church because they still wanted to have a relationship with Jesus in a pretty traditional way but they rejected the authority of the Church because of issues like birth control, abortion in vitro and the sex scandal (which was the last straw for a couple of them). And I find that a lot around here. There are a lot of Call to Action type folks who are passionate about social justice and in fact seem to be very devoted to their particular interpretation of Jesus that they have embraced, but the thing that galls them is the hierarchy and what they perceive as the stodgy behind the times approach of the church towards things mostly having to do sex. I'm in the Arlington Diocese and pretty much have been all my life (except for the three years I lived in Baltimore and the one year in North Carolina) so I might have a skewed vision of things. What is your impression, those of you who have read the book or are currently reading it? This is important to me because I teach 7th grade RE and I am forever puzzled by why the parents are evening bothering with Confirmation prep when they can't even haul their sorry you know whats to Mass on Sundays. What's the point? How can anyone stand to be so hypocritical???? It is hard for me to have respect for these parents at all!! But I guess that is the remnant of the Catholic Identity thing where it is something inherited rather than a living passionated thing one embraces oneself? I think Wendell relies extensively on both religious survey information and thousands of interviews her and her team has done all across the country of Catholics. The data she uses certainly points to a very basic evangelization problem. Lots of baptized Catholics do not actually know who Jesus is. They don't believe in a personal God at all. They don't feel like they have a spiritual life. My personal experience does bear this out. I grew up in an area where everyone was Catholic. There was not a Protestant Church in our town. We had Catholic religious classes during the day in our public school. But....it was very cultural. Even though folks were essentially catechized (i.e., they intellectually knew what the Church taught), they were not evangelized (i.e., they did not let this knowledge form who they were and what they did). It was a big disconnent. Personally, I think Vatican II was trying to address this problem, but was side tracked by a big hot mess of heresy and liturgical abuse. So now the deeper problem of a crisis of faith and knowledge of God has gone unaddress AND we are still trying to sort out quite a mess within the Church. I think many folks see the more visible problems that came out of Vatican II - like outright heresy and liturgical abuse - but don't see the interior rotting away of the faith that was happening even before that. Pope Benedict writes extensively on the "crisis of faith" in the tradionally Christian areas of the world - the West - and I think maybe if you substitute those words for "relationship with Jesus Christ" that Wendell uses, you'll find they are talking about the same reality. I personally do not find "relationship with Jesus Christ" to be a Protestant phrase since it was used constantly in my life as a cradle Catholic, but I do realize it has baggage for others. I do think Wendell downplays some of the other reasons folks leave the Church (divorce, contraception, etc.), but she is relying on the responses given by these individuals in surveys. The surveys say they are not primarily leaving for those reasons, but for others. I think it is a chicken and egg problem. I know folks who move away from the Church over particular doctrinal issues, but often that is just the straw that broke the camel's back. There are doctrines I find difficult and am able to believe and live because of my faith, my personal relationship with Christ, my trust in the Church. If those were weak, no way would I keep living in a way that I found difficult, especially when life was handing me a mess. I don't think outright heresy is leading folks away initially. I see it more as a sympton than a cause. I do think Wendell downplays the infant/adult model of the Church too much. I don't have time to talk about it now, but I would love to later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 I'm finding I'm enjoying the book despite the Protestant buzz words (which I have a visceral reaction to in some settings). She, the author, is coming from what seems to be a fundamentalist (Protestant) upbringing so I'm thinking some of these terms and ideas are common to her. She's also making a point that many Catholics leave because they seek these things that they feel can only be found in the Protestant, and especially the Evangelical, churches. I'd recommend reading it still; personally I had to slog through the first couple chapters (the first moreso than the second) and it got better. Hmmm... :blink: Okay. :coolgleamA: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieSong Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I am sorry to sat that our friends' son Rafe is probably not going to make it. He will probably die today or tomorrow. They want to do dialysis to help his kidneys but they can't because it makes his already low blood pressure even lower. So his kidneys are shutting down, and other organs will then also shut down. There is nothing more they can do. I have to say I am not sad for Rafe, for going to be with God. He is a young man of deep faith in God. I am sure he has received the sacraments of anointing of the sick and Holy Communion numerous times during his hospital stay, and confession when he was able. I am very sad for his family. We are meeting his aunt over at their house to clean it before the family comes home. Two of my kids will help. For some reason, when tragedy strikes someone I know I just want to do something practical to help. Maybe it helps me from curling up into a little sobbing ball. Please keep the family in your prayers. Rafe's mom's birthday is in a couple of days. I would like to get her something. I know she isn't having a big party under the circumstances, but the oldest daughter said it would be nice for people to acknowledge it. Not sure what to get her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I'm so sorry for your friends, Prairie. Get something meaningful and quiet for the birthday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitilin Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Maybe you can have masses said for her intentions? That'd surely be an appreciated gift. Or a spiritual bouquet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 Oh, I am so sorry, Patty. I will pray that his passing is peaceful and that his family is given strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Praying for your friends, Patty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 What is with the Protestant buzz words? Google search results for "personal relationship with Jesus" + site:vatican.va This phrase has been used many times by Bl. John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and others who've preached or written messages posted on the Vatican's web site. So I guess those of us who find the term helpful and meaningful aren't way out there. :) I hope that converts and others who have "issues" with this sort of language can find a way to be free from whatever baggage they have associated with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Note, too, that the author of Forming Intentional Disciples (from what I've seen so far) doesn't say that there are Catholics who don't have this personal relationship. The trouble she identifies is that they aren't conscious of it, or of what it means for their lives. I agree with OrdinaryTime that this problem does exist -- but also that a brief survey question isn't going to give the whole picture of why someone has come to the point of leaving the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 The trouble she identifies is that they aren't conscious of it, or of what it means for their lives. On this part I can agree with you. I just find the term off putting due to how many times it has been used to pull people away from the church. I've been told by some non-Catholic Christians that they are told by their leaders to use that specific phrase as a was to lead Catholics from the church. so, yeah, I take issue with it. probably more than I should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryTime Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 On this part I can agree with you. I just find the term off putting due to how many times it has been used to pull people away from the church. I've been told by some non-Catholic Christians that they are told by their leaders to use that specific phrase as a was to lead Catholics from the church. so, yeah, I take issue with it. probably more than I should. I can see how the phrase can carry baggage for converts or reverts from other Christian faiths, even if I haven't personally experienced it. I get a little sad about the idea that people don't see it as a Catholic phrase, though, and just simply refuse to let it be usurped by others. I'm stubborn that way. :) Also, I sometimes don't know what terms to use when talking with others. If I'm talking with someone at RCIA or a new mom at our parish's moms group and we are having a spiritual discussion, I just don't know how to phrase some questions or responses without talking about my "relationship with Christ." What other terms do you all use? I think a bigger repotoire would be good, especially when talking with some converts. Some of my ideas, like "journey of faith" or "walk with the Lord" sound worse to me, but maybe they are better for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briva Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 ...that's the beauty of the Catholic tradition: there are so many charisms that appeal to different people. Whatever helps you draw closer to Christ! That's a new word for me. Just makes me feel that I am heading in the right direction :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleWonders Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 First, Patty, I am so sorry. :grouphug: Secondly, I want to join further the conversation regarding the "Protestant" buzz words but am trying to the while nursing a toddler who is trying to kick the iPad it from under me. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I can see how the phrase can carry baggage for converts or reverts from other Christian faiths, even if I haven't personally experienced it. I get a little sad about the idea that people don't see it as a Catholic phrase, though, and just simply refuse to let it be usurped by others. I'm stubborn that way. :) Also, I sometimes don't know what terms to use when talking with others. If I'm talking with someone at RCIA or a new mom at our parish's moms group and we are having a spiritual discussion, I just don't know how to phrase some questions or responses without talking about my "relationship with Christ." What other terms do you all use? I think a bigger repotoire would be good, especially when talking with some converts. Some of my ideas, like "journey of faith" or "walk with the Lord" sound worse to me, but maybe they are better for others? Ugh, "Walk with the Lord," I hate that one. I DO find myself using journey. I don't like any of them, but what else are you going to call it? Intimacy with Christ? Intimate relationship? I dunno, I just think Personal Relationship just plain speak. Says in best Miss Hattie Voice, "Are you Intimate with our Lord and Savior? Do you have a personal relationship with Him?" Clearly I need something stronger than bourbon. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 Says in best Miss Hattie Voice, "Are you Intimate with our Lord and Savior? Do you have a personal relationship with Him?" Clearly I need something stronger than bourbon. :D I about fell out of bed laughing! That is awfully close to, "will you respect me in the morning" Yes, I know I'm going to hell for such blasphemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Yes, I know I'm going to hell for such blasphemy. I saved you a spot. I was here first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryTime Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Ugh, "Walk with the Lord," I hate that one. I DO find myself using journey. I don't like any of them, but what else are you going to call it? Intimacy with Christ? Intimate relationship? I dunno, I just think Personal Relationship just plain speak. Says in best Miss Hattie Voice, "Are you Intimate with our Lord and Savior? Do you have a personal relationship with Him?" Clearly I need something stronger than bourbon. :D Yeah, I'm not so sure about throwing around the word intimacy. It kind of reminds me of the first meeting of this Teams of Our Lady group I'm in. It's a group of couples who meet monthly to pray together. discuss spiritual reading, and support each other. Anyway, there are certain endeavors you commit to, like, daily personal prayer, daily scripture reading, etc. One of them was "conjugal prayer." I think one of the husbands about fell out of his seat when he saw that one!! I think it was just an awkward translation for daily prayer as a couple from the French since it was originally a French group. I thought we should use it as a recruiting tool: Join our group and have a daily commitment to conjugal prayer! Let the husbands interpret it as they will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 I saved you a spot. I was here first. sitting with you makes the trip worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 While we are talking buzz words how many knew that word "kerygma" before reading this book? I never heard it before, but she sounded appalled that a serious Catholic wouldn't know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarfoot Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I am sorry to sat that our friends' son Rafe is probably not going to make it. He will probably die today or tomorrow. They want to do dialysis to help his kidneys but they can't because it makes his already low blood pressure even lower. So his kidneys are shutting down, and other organs will then also shut down. There is nothing more they can do. I have to say I am not sad for Rafe, for going to be with God. He is a young man of deep faith in God. I am sure he has received the sacraments of anointing of the sick and Holy Communion numerous times during his hospital stay, and confession when he was able. I am very sad for his family. We are meeting his aunt over at their house to clean it before the family comes home. Two of my kids will help. For some reason, when tragedy strikes someone I know I just want to do something practical to help. Maybe it helps me from curling up into a little sobbing ball. Please keep the family in your prayers. Rafe's mom's birthday is in a couple of days. I would like to get her something. I know she isn't having a big party under the circumstances, but the oldest daughter said it would be nice for people to acknowledge it. Not sure what to get her. I'm sorry. I'll be praying for Rafe and his family, as well as all those who know and care for them. May God grant him peace as his physical suffering ends and true life begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 While we are talking buzz words how many knew that word "kerygma" before reading this book? I never heard it before, but she sounded appalled that a serious Catholic wouldn't know it. I learned it years ago in a secular religious studies course, but I've never understood how it's preferable to just talking about "sharing the Gospel," "telling people about Jesus Christ," or other common expressions. It's strange that the author seems to consider it essential for all of us to know this specific term, as if our weakness in living our faith were caused by a deficient vocabulary. :confused1: On top of that, it's my understanding that the word kerygma was popularized in the 20th century by Rudolf Bultmann, a liberal Protestant whose method of Biblical interpretation is completely messed up from a traditional Christian point of view. Which is not to say that there's anything wrong with using the word itself. But it's not some sort of universal Catholic expression that people learn as a matter of course, and I don't for a moment think it's a requirement for being an "intentional disciple." (I doubt that St. Therese had much to say about the kerygma... LOL at the idea. But she certainly understood what it meant.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briva Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I learned it years ago in a secular religious studies course, but I've never understood how it's preferable to just talking about "sharing the Gospel," "telling people about Jesus Christ," or other common expressions. It's strange that the author seems to consider it essential for all of us to know this specific term, as if our weakness in living our faith were caused by a deficient vocabulary. :confused1: On top of that, it's my understanding that the word kerygma was popularized in the 20th century by Rudolf Bultmann, a liberal Protestant whose method of Biblical interpretation is completely messed up from a traditional Christian point of view. Which is not to say that there's anything wrong with using the word itself. But it's not some sort of universal Catholic expression that people learn as a matter of course, and I don't for a moment think it's a requirement for being an "intentional disciple." (I doubt that St. Therese had much to say about the kerygma... LOL at the idea. But she certainly understood what it meant.) I really dislike when protestants pick a 'label' and add all sorts of meaning behind it or give it importance. I was in a non-denom for almost 7yrs and I can tell you we had waves of stuff thrown at us (none of which really stuck). I dont know the word KERYGMA because its Greek. I have nothing against Greeks or their language. I taught my kids Spanish and Latin is what they preferred over learning Greek. But I do know what 'proclamation' is, this word of Latin origin means the same thing, so I agree with ElizaGrace, we may not have know what the Greek term is, but we know the Latin. For protestants its more about head knowledge (do you know the right Greek term for that) vs practical knowledge. I may not know what something is called but I practice it. I love my Lord with all my heart, soul, body and mind and now I can practice that in an EO or RC church without people looking at me wondering why I cross myself or am emotional/so happy when I leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithr Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I am running very late here so I only have about two minutes, but I just wanted to say that I'm really getting into the book now and hope to have time to talk about it over the weekend perhaps. One funny thing, which I mentioned to my 20 yo son about the phrase 'personal relationship with Jesus' and how for some people that is a red flag kind of phrase, he said: what they mean is what Chesterton said. Something like "Make your religion less of a theory and more of a love affair!" So when we are talking about personal relationship we are talking about falling head over heels passionately in love with Jesus! And how can you have any closer relationship than through the Eucharist where you physically become one body with Jesus! That is what has been lost because no one treats the Eucharist as a mystical experience of union. It is just a humdrum symbol, done without thought. I mean I can't tell how many times I've seen people (adults!) chewing gum on their way up to receive the Eucharist! They have no concept whatsoever of what they are doing. I don't believe these people even realize just what they are doing. They are sleepwalking they need to wake up and feel the passion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithr Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I really dislike when protestants pick a 'label' and add all sorts of meaning behind it or give it importance. I was in a non-denom for almost 7yrs and I can tell you we had waves of stuff thrown at us (none of which really stuck). I dont know the word KERYGMA because its Greek. I have nothing against Greeks or their language. I taught my kids Spanish and Latin is what they preferred over learning Greek. But I do know what 'proclamation' is, this word of Latin origin means the same thing, so I agree with ElizaGrace, we may not have know what the Greek term is, but we know the Latin. For protestants its more about head knowledge (do you know the right Greek term for that) vs practical knowledge. I may not know what something is called but I practice it. I love my Lord with all my heart, soul, body and mind and now I can practice that in an EO or RC church without people looking at me wondering why I cross myself or am emotional/so happy when I leave. Here's a link to Catholic Culture's definition of Kerygma. And they are quoting from Father John Hardon. http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34433 The author has been a Catholic for many, many years and devoted herself to it. I think it is a little unfair to keep bringing up her Protestant upbringing as somehow something that invalidates her experience and knowledge. I think the term is Catholic as the early Church was Greek in language before Latin took over. I think it has just been underused and she's trying to rectify what she sees as a deficit in our understanding of discipleship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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