go_go_gadget Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 None of this is news to anyone here, but since the topic does come up frequently: http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2012/11/23/stem-students-must-be-taught-to-fail I'm going to have my kids read it, actually; it's always helpful to have a voice in addition to your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Occasionally Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Thanks for posting! My kids are pretty young, and don't yet understand when I tell them it's okay to fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belacqua Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Thanks for posting that. It really is a good reminder. In this article, Richard Rusczyk says something similar ("If you're always getting a hundred percent, you're not learning efficiently enough"). And at a recent college info session, the leader said something like, "You're all used to straight As. If you come here, you'll get used to some Cs." Hmmm...I never realized how well-adjusted and efficient a student I must have been as a kid, given my...er...lack of perfection! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 In tutoring, one of my most effective statements has been, "Try. If you can't make a mistake, you can't make anything." I wish I'd been the one to come up with that but it was Marva Collins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Any suggestions on how to lower the frustration level with failure though for incredibly intense kids? Honestly, that is one of our biggest issues. They are not afraid of failing per se as in they are not afraid to try, but when it doesn't work, it can be a major meltdown reaction. Trial and error is rough around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I love the Thomas Edison quote about not failing but having found 10,000 ways that didn't work :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Another favorite reminder is all the famous businessmen who went bankrupt before becoming millionaires: Milton Hershey (multiple times!), Henry Ford, Walt Disney, H.J. Heinz the condiment maker, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathwonk Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I don't consider this failing either, but I just learned yesterday how to make a computation that a friend of mine made in 1972, answering a question I myself had tried unsuccessfully to answer. All these years I have considered myself an "expert" on this general topic, because of the partial knowledge I had and slightly different approach I took, and I have even been invited to speak on it internationally. I just never grasped the whole thing until yesterday. It feels good to learn something, even after 40 years, not of failing, but of thinking about it without completely getting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 FairProspects, I too have this issue with my younger child. If he doesnt get something right away (and with math, he hates using scratch paper because he feels that's cheating) he gets annoyed and frustrated. I am hoping it passes with age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureMoms Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I think that is soooo true. I remember graduating engineering school (with top marks) and getting into my first job and feeling completely unprepared to do anything. The only classes that I felt really prepared me were the ones (there were 2 of them in 4 years) that gave us vague, messy, real-world problems and had us solve them, either on paper (in a math modeling class) or in real life (in an engineering design class). Learning to work through those issues and screw up and start over again was really the only thing that prepared me at all. And FWIW the Engineering Design class was only for ME's and the other disciplines had no equivalent course (except EE's) and the Math Modeling class was an elective, not a required course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureMoms Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I think that is soooo true. I remember graduating engineering school (with top marks) and getting into my first job and feeling completely unprepared to do anything. The only classes that I felt really prepared me were the ones (there were 2 of them in 4 years) that gave us vague, messy, real-world problems and had us solve them, either on paper (in a math modeling class) or in real life (in an engineering design class). Learning to work through those issues and screw up and start over again was really the only thing that prepared me at all. And FWIW the Engineering Design class was only for ME's and the other disciplines had no equivalent course (except EE's) and the Math Modeling class was an elective, not a required course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgrcn77 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 This is an important lesson. Thank you for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belacqua Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 FairProspects, I too have this issue with my younger child. If he doesnt get something right away (and with math, he hates using scratch paper because he feels that's cheating) he gets annoyed and frustrated. I am hoping it passes with age. Maybe he'll feel better if you tell him this: I helped clean up the testing room after our math circle kids sat the math olympiad last year. We literally could not fit all the scratch paper into the recycling bin (and it was a BIG bin). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Any suggestions on how to lower the frustration level with failure though for incredibly intense kids? Honestly, that is one of our biggest issues. They are not afraid of failing per se as in they are not afraid to try, but when it doesn't work, it can be a major meltdown reaction. Trial and error is rough around here. The best luck I've had with this is using explicit praise and rewards for continuing to work after failure. I've found that removing the child from the stressful situation briefly, and giving a hug & support & an M&M, then going back and making some progress -- this sequence has worked for us. The child has a bit of room to calm down if you take them away from the book or project, maybe even outside; the treat sounds perhaps odd but sugar + fat, or just a bit of sugar even, is a powerful stress reducer (this is from my neuroscience days) and it doesn't take much; then return and make some progress on the perfection front. We started with Button being required to just cross out his mistakes instead of scribbling them all over, and then we'd stop working; then he'd cross out and we'd do one more step or problem; cross out and finish the work; instead of crossing out, erase and continue. Very gradual and iterative. And I still explicitly praise persistence and hard work generously; do not praise accomplishment per se (though we celebrate the end of every text with a little party) usually; I thank him for careful work; and point out to him things that were once hard and are now simple. Also point out my own struggles. We've made a lot of progress on this. I don't imagine the technique will work well for anybody else as is -- these things are so personalized! -- but hope the ideas are helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAR120C Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 We have a comic on the wall..... http://electroncafe....c-process-rage/ It's not entirely appropriate.. but boy is it spot on! ;) ETA: Just went back and re-read it and I should increase the emphasis in the warning... definitely not appropriate, especially for little ones! but still spot-on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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