If You Did NOT Like the Later Guides in HOD....

[Dustybug]

Can you tell me why? Specifically from Bigger up?

 

Thanks!

[Dustybug]

Anyone?

[MamaHappy]

You might want to ask this over on the homeschoolreviews.com board. I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of HOD drop-outs over there. :)

 

I personally loved HOD until we got to Bigger, and then I jumped ship. I need to run, bit I'll be back to explain more.

[ChicoryChick]

I personally favor the Bigger and Preparing guides. Creation to Christ is also good, but my dd found it a bit overwhelming For us personally the increase in both the price and the number of resources became to much for us and IX found the need to simplify. HOD is a good full curriculum just a bit to full for us.

[Another Lynn]

I love many things about Preparing (though I confess we never did all of it). I think we are just the type of people who can't stick with a package for a whole year, LOL. We never tried CTC (though we have used some of the same resources it schedules). My oldest completed more than half of RTR and I can't remember how much of Rev to Rev. It just felt like too much.... not simply the amount of time, but too many little different assignments. For the record, I also consider us to be CM-drop-outs and notebooking- drop-outs. It just felt to me as we got into "logic stage" that the notebooking and so many little pieces weren't as good a fit. Maybe the depth was there and we were too much in a box-checking mentality to get it. Both guides we would start dropping things, streamlining, etc. until we had almost wandered away from the entire thing. Also, in full disclosure, we did not come up through all the previous guides. Maybe it would have made a difference. I think after awhile we just get tired of being told what to do, LOL.

[morningcoffee]

Dd and I loved Preparing :001_wub: but neither of us were as thrilled with CTC. DD found Preparing pretty easy but struggled with CTC so we shelved for 6 months and picked it up again when she turned 11.

 

Ultimately it came down to the book choices in CTC. They are all worthwhile books but drier than I was expecting after doing Preparing. I thought they were challenging for the recommended ages and a big step up from Preparing. DD didn't really relate to the story time books... from memory there seemed to be a lot of books with male characters.

 

We got through it but I think she would have got more out of it if she had been older.

 

FWIW, Preparing is the only "packaged" curriculum I have really loved. And it's not that I didn't like CTC; I just didn't love it.

[Sew happily ever after]

Dd 7th grade is using RTR (resurrection to reformation) this year and its going well. She enjoys having it all spelled out for her what to do each day so she doesn't have to wait for me to tell it to her, she can just jump in. Some of the history books have been harder for her than I expected so we remedied that by me reading it out loud to her instead of her reading it to herself. In a couple weeks we will be movin into the mystery of history 3 book and she will go back to reading it herself. I think for seventh grade this is perfect with he exception of science. For seventh grade it needs a bit more depth. Also you shouldn't let yourself feel boxed in by this curriculum. Make it fit your family and children. If your children need to something differently than what the book says then go ahead and make that adaptation.

[abrightmom]

Just listening in.... :coolgleamA:

[Tidbits of Learning]

1. CTC is mainly a huge study of the Old Testament. It comes from one POV-Biblical History. I want my middle schoolers to have more than one POV at that age/stage.
   
2. The small projects broken up over 4 days drew things out that could have been done quicker.
   
3. The amount of boxes and resources did not bring an in-depth study as much as more work. It was not challenging to my middle schoolers. It was more busy work.
   
4. No answer keys. Everything was open-ended. The guides essentially become self-study with no parent/teacher input or direction. It is independent work so the lack of answer keys and direction meant that the girls were just completing work and moving on...it felt disjointed to me as the teacher to be listening to narrations and reading narrations that I had not read books for and did not really know what answer the curriculum was looking for...in a nut shell my children tended to answer things to the nature of ...b/c the Bible direct us to...the character followed the Bible...they really knew they just had to say Bible in the answer no matter what subject with HOD and they would be on the right track.
   
5. Science is too light.
   
6. I actually looked at what their grade level counterparts were doing and had been doing for the last few years....it was eye opening. We joined a scout pack at a local Catholic school and I wandered around while ds was doing scouts. There was work posted everywhere and on the doors to the grade level classrooms. DS was noticeably behind his grade/age level peers when they did written work. It was a game changer for me to see that ds was probably a grade level behind his peers and it showed. This made me look up what the middle schools were doing here and the requirements for high school.
   
7. It is not tried and true. No one has finished through high school with it (it is still being developed to those grades). Most of those using it aren't comparing it to anything different or age/grade level peers. So when you ask about it, your replies come from those that are in it for the long haul, but really no one can say if it prepares for college and heavy science/math degrees. Every one has different goals and their children have different pursuits, but if you have a child that already knows they wish to pursue something like veterinary science...it helps to make sure that they have the science background for it in high school to prepare for the science required in college.
   

[MamaHappy]

Quote:

1. I actually looked at what their grade level counterparts were doing and had been doing for the last few years....it was eye opening. We joined a scout pack at a local Catholic school and I wandered around while ds was doing scouts. There was work posted everywhere and on the doors to the grade level classrooms. DS was noticeably behind his grade/age level peers when they did written work. It was a game changer for me to see that ds was probably a grade level behind his peers and it showed. This made me look up what the middle schools were doing here and the requirements for high school.
   

*************************************************************************************************************************************************************

 

OpenMinded - would you mind sharing a little more about what areas your dc were behind in when compared to their middle school counterparts?

[morningcoffee]

No answer keys. Everything was open-ended. The guides essentially become self-study with no parent/teacher input or direction. It is independent work so the lack of answer keys and direction meant that the girls were just completing work and moving on...it felt disjointed to me as the teacher to be listening to narrations and reading narrations that I had not read books for and did not really know what answer the curriculum was looking for...in a nut shell my children tended to answer things to the nature of ...b/c the Bible direct us to...the character followed the Bible...they really knew they just had to say Bible in the answer no matter what subject with HOD and they would be on the right track.

 

:iagree: I had forgotten about the lack of teacher "helps" in the guide. However maybe the expectation is that the teacher has previously read the books? I can't remember reading that in the manual but when I used to hang out on the HOD message boards I remember some Moms were reading the books during the summer. I ordered in a hurry and didn't get the chance to pre-read anything ... skimming the book while I was listening to a narration just wasn't the same

[Sew happily ever after]

I think you can make it grade level for your student by doing math, language arts, etc. at your students ability level. That is where the bulk of my seventh graders work comes from--her basic subjects. The history is very thorough, interesting, and chronological. We did not use CTC (won't for my other dc either). I will likely use parts of it though as I like some of the resources but do not like a majority of the main history texts.

 

I do think HOD has a nice mix of hands on activities though. If your dc does not enjoy hands on then you can just have them skip those projects.

 

I do feel that the science in RTR while very thorough just isn't enough for seventh grade. It is well below my daughters reading level and they only read 2-3 pages per day. When compared to 15-20+ pages per day for history. Also for history there are so many components to the learning about history portion which is great, but then only 1 box for the science. It seems unbalanced which I think is more accurate than saying the science is too light.

[Tidbits of Learning]

Quote:

1. I actually looked at what their grade level counterparts were doing and had been doing for the last few years....it was eye opening. We joined a scout pack at a local Catholic school and I wandered around while ds was doing scouts. There was work posted everywhere and on the doors to the grade level classrooms. DS was noticeably behind his grade/age level peers when they did written work. It was a game changer for me to see that ds was probably a grade level behind his peers and it showed. This made me look up what the middle schools were doing here and the requirements for high school.

 

 

The girls' public school counterparts were working heavily in science. For 6th grade science, my child is now doing Physical Science that rivals my high school chemistry class. They are writing so much more. Almost every subject daily has a 3 paragraph essay or some sort of logic writing assignment. Mainly, these kids were getting a much more well rounded, thorough exploration of all subjects. We were basically drowning in history and coming up short. The labs for science would blow your mind with the public schools. I felt a lot of the science was below level in order to make it easy to do at home. I knew that it was below grade level for so many language arts in the younger years. My children had gotten used to a light academic tone with HOD and it was very evident at the beginning of this year when they were required to do so much with each subject and not just history being the main focus.

************************************************************************************************************************************************************* OpenMinded - would you mind sharing a little more about what areas your dc were behind in when compared to their middle school counterparts?

:iagree: I had forgotten about the lack of teacher "helps" in the guide. However maybe the expectation is that the teacher has previously read the books? I can't remember reading that in the manual but when I used to hang out on the HOD message boards I remember some Moms were reading the books during the summer. I ordered in a hurry and didn't get the chance to pre-read anything ... skimming the book while I was listening to a narration just wasn't the same

There is really no way to keep up with all the reading with multiple children in so many ranges. There is these long, drawn out explanations of how CM is supposed to be open ended so your child has to really think and so you aren't just looking for a specific answer. Sort of like thinking outside the box, but these are science questions in CTC and well they had a specific answer and you had to look them up to find them yourself b/c HOD didn 't use the actual questions that had answer key in Apologia. That really made me irritated and I quickly told my dc to use Apologia's questions and then I actually could check and correct them and help them to learn from the science. We had done Apologia science without HOD and I will tell you it is much better done Apologia's way than the quick skim through reading with HOD. I did not feel prepared from skimming quickly to really know whether my child gleaned a lot from the reading.

I think you can make it grade level for your student by doing math, language arts, etc. at your students ability level. That is where the bulk of my seventh graders work comes from--her basic subjects. The history is very thorough, interesting, and chronological. We did not use CTC (won't for my other dc either). I will likely use parts of it though as I like some of the resources but do not like a majority of the main history texts. I do think HOD has a nice mix of hands on activities though. If your dc does not enjoy hands on then you can just have them skip those projects. I do feel that the science in RTR while very thorough just isn't enough for seventh grade. It is well below my daughters reading level and they only read 2-3 pages per day. When compared to 15-20+ pages per day for history. Also for history there are so many components to the learning about history portion which is great, but then only 1 box for the science. It seems unbalanced which I think is more accurate than saying the science is too light.

My problem with adding other resources to get it to grade level is that HOD is so full with all the history tidbits and activities that it makes your day overwhelming to actually add in grade level work. Everyone has different goals and their journey will be different. I have a child who is gifted and who will get scholarship offers. I didn't see HOD doing anything for us in the long run. Yes, they would have been educated with a religious overview...but I couldn't see it ever helping them in their college pursuits. I couldn't see the science as anything more than getting the bare minimum done. I saw the history as learning from only one POV and not really exploring and discussing it from a historical aspect at all. I can add religion to my child's day but I can't take a curriculum whose POV with every subject is religious and add in grade level expectations from each subject for 4 kids realistically.

 

Disclaimer-this is the first time I have tried to multiquote on this board.

[MrsMe]

I'd be interested to know a good alternative for history and science. I haven't found one yet.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I'd be interested to know a good alternative for history and science. I haven't found one yet.

 

 

If your child is interested in following a science career later in life, then I would strongly suggest secular science.

I also love K12's History-Human Odyssey books. They are really good and my child is learning a lot. You can get them by themselves from Christianbook.com. I have even found schedules that line up SOTW and the Human Odyssey books.

[Sew happily ever after]

No curriculum can fit each family exactly. I like to be able to make changes as needed to tailor the curriculum to my child and to align with my beliefs/worldview. That is the beauty of homeschooling. What is good for one family is not good for every family. I think that is why I have such a hard time sticking with one specific curriculum. I like to take my favorite aspects of different curriculums and mesh them together.

[abrightmom]

I'd be interested to know a good alternative for history and science. I haven't found one yet.

Doesn't the answer to this question beg so many others? Worldview and how much time you want to give to these subjects are hills to die on for most folks. Then, consider whether or not you are catering to one student or a family. Some kids love history, some hate it. What are your goals? Choosing curriculum is tough!

 

Insert smiley face. IPad doesn't let me insert emoticons.

 

[gratitude]

If your child is interested in following a science career later in life, then I would strongly suggest secular science.

I also love K12's History-Human Odyssey books. They are really good and my child is learning a lot. You can get them by themselves from Christianbook.com. I have even found schedules that line up SOTW and the Human Odyssey books.

 

 

It sounded like you had tried Apologia. What did you think of it compared to secular science? Doesn't it meet the science criteria? I had understood that it did, but would love to know other opinions.

[gratitude]

I am not the best to review HOD since I have only done 3 - 4 weeks of each TM of Beyond and Bigger and Preparing. So I did choose to delete my answer...

 

I think the only thing I will keep is that the scripted prayers (word for word for the student to say) for the independent Bible study in Preparing did really bother me. My minimal experience also left me with the impression that science and geography were very light and not at grade level.

 

What we did enjoy...most of the books that we did keep, Grandpa's Box that we are doing, and Dictation Day by Day is wonderful and I am using it. We had already started R&S English prior to HOD, and it is still our English/grammar program.

[MrsMe]

Sort of like thinking outside the box, but these are science questions in CTC and well they had a specific answer and you had to look them up to find them yourself b/c HOD didn 't use the actual questions that had answer key in Apologia. That really made me irritated and I quickly told my dc to use Apologia's questions and then I actually could check and correct them and help them to learn from the science. We had done Apologia science without HOD and I will tell you it is much better done Apologia's way than the quick skim through reading with HOD. I did not feel prepared from skimming quickly to really know whether my child gleaned a lot from the reading.

.

 

Now I thought Apologia Notebooking was better in RTR until I actually used Apologia's notebook as written. I thought it seriously lacked and was completely surprised. The vocabulary consisted of a crossword puzzle, which by the time you're a bit through it, it's just deduction, not learning any vocabulary. HOD you have to find and write the definitions. The questions in Apologia required exact answers, nothing thoughtful. I found HOD's questions required much more thought. They weren't just in the book saying, "here I am". They required a thought process after reading through information. The answers weren't blatant, which I find fantastic as some things require digesting the material and coming to a conclusion, which HOD did. I even thought some of the experiments on both ends were a bit lame, although the "Take it Further" in the notebook did up the ante a bit. So HOD was more thought provoking and Apologia's experiments were more at age level for RTR, probably due to the fact that HOD likes to simplify the supplies. HOD also contained more labeling and better "lab" sheets that required the information from the experiments. The lab sheets in Apologia really lacked, and hardly had any draw/labeling lessons.

[Dustybug]

Thanks for all the replies! I really like hearing all the opinions and how things worked/didn't work in your homes. I'm trying to wade through my own pros and cons and decide what our next step will be and this is helpful.

[abrightmom]

Now I thought Apologia Notebooking was better in RTR until I actually used Apologia's notebook as written. I thought it seriously lacked and was completely surprised. The vocabulary consisted of a crossword puzzle, which by the time you're a bit through it, it's just deduction, not learning any vocabulary. HOD you have to find and write the definitions. The questions in Apologia required exact answers, nothing thoughtful. I found HOD's questions required much more thought. They weren't just in the book saying, "here I am". They required a thought process after reading through information. The answers weren't blatant, which I find fantastic as some things require digesting the material and coming to a conclusion, which HOD did. I even thought some of the experiments on both ends were a bit lame, although the "Take it Further" in the notebook did up the ante a bit. So HOD was more thought provoking and Apologia's experiments were more at age level for RTR, probably due to the fact that HOD likes to simplify the supplies. HOD also contained more labeling and better "lab" sheets that required the information from the experiments. The lab sheets in Apologia really lacked, and hardly had any draw/labeling lessons.

 

Ooooh, this is helpful. :coolgleamA:

[Sew happily ever after]

Another thought: many of the books that are used in HOD re multiple age--like the MOH3 in RTR is actually for elementary thru middle school so that a family could study it together but HOD says that only ages 10-12 should or could use it. Same with the Apologia texts--those are all for grades 1-6 but HOD sys only appropriate for certain ages as specified in their guides. I think this is what makes it confusing for some. When you look at the packages and see so many multi-aged resources it looks at first glance to be a fit for many ages to use together but really it's written for specific ageless groups. However this year after having all my dc separate and studying their own things for history and science I find it much more manageable. Not sure why that is, but I feel like each child is getting what they need.

 

FWIW the science in CTC looks really great. I almost wish thy would sell just that science as a set to use as a stand alone science. Same thing about the science in Rev to Rev. The science akin with the inventor study looks very rigorous. I just think the earth science study in RTR should be used in preparing as the work my seventh grader has done this year so far seems perfect for that age.

 

It's so hard to please everyone but I am thankful for a planned curriculum this year, even if I do have to edit, change, supplement a bit. It's just so much nicer to be able to know what is going to eat done each day. It's easier to change or add to it than to plan the whole thing! I do like the biblical perspective and while its not perfect for everyone, it's fine for us. Although like I've already said, most of the resources used pretty much just schedule for your dc to Dj the next page or read the next section. It wouldn't be that difficult to actually make out that reading schedule yourself.

[Tidbits of Learning]

It sounded like you had tried Apologia. What did you think of it compared to secular science? Doesn't it meet the science criteria? I had understood that it did, but would love to know other opinions.

 

I have only used certain Apologia Science books. We mainly used them to add more science to the younger guides of HOD. The science I was comparing to doing without being in a HOD guide was Zoology 1 from Apologia. We were using it then with a 2nd, 4th, and 5th grader. I do think it is elementary science and not middle school science. I agree with the PP that children with experience writing will be going back steps with HOD's incremental skills approach. My 7th grader would have had no problem doing CTC as a 4th grader had it been written at the time we began homeschooling. She had the skills required for it coming out of 3rd grade public school. If I could go back and do it again not based on the placement chart but based on my knowledge of the actual guides and skills with my dc, I would have placed my ds in 1st at the time in Beyond, my dd in 3rd at the time in Preparing, and well I would have had to find something else for dd who was in 4th when we began HOD b/c she was above the level of their highest guide at the time.

We are doing secular science right now and well it is just the breadth and depth of it all. We aren't young earth and that became a problem with HOD and Apologia to be honest. Having done CTC with a 5th and 6th grader and now doing Physical Science with K12 with a 6th grader, they are just worlds apart. I don't mean in point of view only, but in the actual work and science and thinking involved in the science. The amount of writing, exploring, and explaining required for the secular science at grade level is just double or triple what they had been exposed to with HOD. The science knowledge, terminology, exposure to multiple theories and POV's is just such a change for the children.

I don't think CTC's science could be considered middle school science level GLE's. I know a lot of people don't ever look at the GLE's when homeschooling b/c that isn't why they homeschool. My reasons for homeschooling have changed and evolved in the past 4 years. I have a child that will go into veterinary science. The life science course that she is taking right now in 7th grade is wonderful. She did not get this in-depth study of science with HOD. The sheer amount of labs to understand science with science tools and not household items is such a vast change. I have had to correct her several times with her answers to this years work b/c she just doesn't have the science vocabulary background in her answers due to HOD's lack of working on that exact skill. She understands the concepts but her answers are in layman's terms b/c that is what she learned with HOD.

My 4th grader's curriculum is more academic and enriching compared to what we did last year for 5th and 6th grade with my girls. I would have to say science (throughout HOD) was probably my biggest concern behind language arts (younger guides).

Don't get me wrong, I chose HOD for some of the very reasons I no longer do HOD. Our paths changed along the way with our goals with homeschooling. We are religious, but I felt the religion outweighed the academics in the later guides when children should be thinking for themselves and learning multiple POV's in order to develop their own POV. I feel with HOD that you really have to agree with HOD's POV and religious perspective or it will get hairy in the older guides. My goal isn't to tell my children what to believe or follow. Our beliefs shouldn't cause us not to explore other POV's and learn from them. I did not like the scripted prayer and Bible study either. At those ages, children should be questioning, exploring,and coming to their own conclusions about their beliefs and prayer to me is something between one and God. I believe my children's relationship with God is their's to nurture and develop. It is not mine to cultivate and manipulate.

Sorry for rambling on and on. To answer your question about the science criteria, no. No it did not meet our GLE's for the children's grade levels. You would have to look up your state's GLE's and compare them to see if they meet yours.

[gratitude]

I have only used certain Apologia Science books. We mainly used them to add more science to the younger guides of HOD. The science I was comparing to doing without being in a HOD guide was Zoology 1 from Apologia. We were using it then with a 2nd, 4th, and 5th grader. I do think it is elementary science and not middle school science. I agree with the PP that children with experience writing will be going back steps with HOD's incremental skills approach. My 7th grader would have had no problem doing CTC as a 4th grader had it been written at the time we began homeschooling. She had the skills required for it coming out of 3rd grade public school. If I could go back and do it again not based on the placement chart but based on my knowledge of the actual guides and skills with my dc, I would have placed my ds in 1st at the time in Beyond, my dd in 3rd at the time in Preparing, and well I would have had to find something else for dd who was in 4th when we began HOD b/c she was above the level of their highest guide at the time.

We are doing secular science right now and well it is just the breadth and depth of it all. We aren't young earth and that became a problem with HOD and Apologia to be honest. Having done CTC with a 5th and 6th grader and now doing Physical Science with K12 with a 6th grader, they are just worlds apart. I don't mean in point of view only, but in the actual work and science and thinking involved in the science. The amount of writing, exploring, and explaining required for the secular science at grade level is just double or triple what they had been exposed to with HOD. The science knowledge, terminology, exposure to multiple theories and POV's is just such a change for the children.

I don't think CTC's science could be considered middle school science level GLE's. I know a lot of people don't ever look at the GLE's when homeschooling b/c that isn't why they homeschool. My reasons for homeschooling have changed and evolved in the past 4 years. I have a child that will go into veterinary science. The life science course that she is taking right now in 7th grade is wonderful. She did not get this in-depth study of science with HOD. The sheer amount of labs to understand science with science tools and not household items is such a vast change. I have had to correct her several times with her answers to this years work b/c she just doesn't have the science vocabulary background in her answers due to HOD's lack of working on that exact skill. She understands the concepts but her answers are in layman's terms b/c that is what she learned with HOD.

My 4th grader's curriculum is more academic and enriching compared to what we did last year for 5th and 6th grade with my girls. I would have to say science (throughout HOD) was probably my biggest concern behind language arts (younger guides).

Don't get me wrong, I chose HOD for some of the very reasons I no longer do HOD. Our paths changed along the way with our goals with homeschooling. We are religious, but I felt the religion outweighed the academics in the later guides when children should be thinking for themselves and learning multiple POV's in order to develop their own POV. I feel with HOD that you really have to agree with HOD's POV and religious perspective or it will get hairy in the older guides. My goal isn't to tell my children what to believe or follow. Our beliefs shouldn't cause us not to explore other POV's and learn from them. I did not like the scripted prayer and Bible study either. At those ages, children should be questioning, exploring,and coming to their own conclusions about their beliefs and prayer to me is something between one and God. I believe my children's relationship with God is their's to nurture and develop. It is not mine to cultivate and manipulate.

Sorry for rambling on and on. To answer your question about the science criteria, no. No it did not meet our GLE's for the children's grade levels. You would have to look up your state's GLE's and compare them to see if they meet yours.

 

 

Thank you for such a thorough answer! This was very helpful to read.

[morningcoffee]

OpenMinded, I have enjoyed reading your thoughts on HOD. I noticed though that you referred to CTC a few times as not being a suitable level for middle school. CTC is recommended for ages 9 - 11 so I wouldn't have thought that it was really intended for middle schoolers. Kids around here enter middle school at 11 or 12. Forgive me if I have misunderstood what you are saying - maybe you were using it with their extension package and you were using it as a middle school curriculum?

However, my understanding is that CTC (primarily) is not intended for middle school. I can't comment on the suitability of CTC's science for the recommended age range as as we didn't do it :)

[MrsMe]

No curriculum can fit each family exactly. I like to be able to make changes as needed to tailor the curriculum to my child and to align with my beliefs/worldview. That is the beauty of homeschooling. What is good for one family is not good for every family. I think that is why I have such a hard time sticking with one specific curriculum. I like to take my favorite aspects of different curriculums and mesh them together.

 

 

I think the post below shows us this exactly.

 

I have only used certain Apologia Science books. We mainly used them to add more science to the younger guides of HOD. The science I was comparing to doing without being in a HOD guide was Zoology 1 from Apologia. We were using it then with a 2nd, 4th, and 5th grader. I do think it is elementary science and not middle school science. I agree with the PP that children with experience writing will be going back steps with HOD's incremental skills approach. My 7th grader would have had no problem doing CTC as a 4th grader had it been written at the time we began homeschooling. She had the skills required for it coming out of 3rd grade public school. If I could go back and do it again not based on the placement chart but based on my knowledge of the actual guides and skills with my dc, I would have placed my ds in 1st at the time in Beyond, my dd in 3rd at the time in Preparing, and well I would have had to find something else for dd who was in 4th when we began HOD b/c she was above the level of their highest guide at the time.

We are doing secular science right now and well it is just the breadth and depth of it all. We aren't young earth and that became a problem with HOD and Apologia to be honest. Having done CTC with a 5th and 6th grader and now doing Physical Science with K12 with a 6th grader, they are just worlds apart. I don't mean in point of view only, but in the actual work and science and thinking involved in the science. The amount of writing, exploring, and explaining required for the secular science at grade level is just double or triple what they had been exposed to with HOD. The science knowledge, terminology, exposure to multiple theories and POV's is just such a change for the children.

I don't think CTC's science could be considered middle school science level GLE's. I know a lot of people don't ever look at the GLE's when homeschooling b/c that isn't why they homeschool. My reasons for homeschooling have changed and evolved in the past 4 years. I have a child that will go into veterinary science. The life science course that she is taking right now in 7th grade is wonderful. She did not get this in-depth study of science with HOD. The sheer amount of labs to understand science with science tools and not household items is such a vast change. I have had to correct her several times with her answers to this years work b/c she just doesn't have the science vocabulary background in her answers due to HOD's lack of working on that exact skill. She understands the concepts but her answers are in layman's terms b/c that is what she learned with HOD.

My 4th grader's curriculum is more academic and enriching compared to what we did last year for 5th and 6th grade with my girls. I would have to say science (throughout HOD) was probably my biggest concern behind language arts (younger guides).

Don't get me wrong, I chose HOD for some of the very reasons I no longer do HOD. Our paths changed along the way with our goals with homeschooling. We are religious, but I felt the religion outweighed the academics in the later guides when children should be thinking for themselves and learning multiple POV's in order to develop their own POV. I feel with HOD that you really have to agree with HOD's POV and religious perspective or it will get hairy in the older guides. My goal isn't to tell my children what to believe or follow. Our beliefs shouldn't cause us not to explore other POV's and learn from them. I did not like the scripted prayer and Bible study either. At those ages, children should be questioning, exploring,and coming to their own conclusions about their beliefs and prayer to me is something between one and God. I believe my children's relationship with God is their's to nurture and develop. It is not mine to cultivate and manipulate.

Sorry for rambling on and on. To answer your question about the science criteria, no. No it did not meet our GLE's for the children's grade levels. You would have to look up your state's GLE's and compare them to see if they meet yours.

 

 

Now I have a total different outlook on HOD than Openminded's post here. I don't find that HOD's intent is to manipulate their relationship with God, but the guide is showing an example of how to pray for those beginners to seem to be at a loss on how to start and what they can pray for in a general sense. Forgiveness, thanks, glory, etc. I don't see it as an absolute that you "have" to start this way. I also think it's a parent's job to show the way. I also have a different belief in that as a parent I should lead my child to Christ, not to set up their own beliefs. And I mean this respectfully as that is where we differ in what we want out of a program. So what I'm trying to say as we're opposites on what we want for our families and this makes a huge difference in someones view of a curriculum.

 

I also noticed that most likely due to the next levels not being out yet they had to be used out level?? I never think extensions help with adding olders with youngers as I think it's just "more" not more difficult. And not that I even know if you did this Openminded. So I would say that CTC is certainly not a grade level program for middle school. Also if you have a gifted child you're going to want to make it more difficult, so perhaps it sounds more used out of level than the level intended, but again, they're probably were not more levels available then.

 

As in my earlier post I thought Apologia wasn't enough in RTR, since it's an easy book, so I opted for the Apologia notebooking journal and was completely surprised by it's lack of any thinking. So we went back to HOD science as written and it was hands down better. I do think thought that HOD could start moving on to more scientific terms. I agree with that. The whole guess vs hypothesis word drives me batty. I also agree that more work doesn't mean more difficult. I think the programs could be done with less as a whole with more critical thinking, but again the jury is out on where the programs are going and I don't know what sort of critical thinking is in MTMM. As for Apologia using quick through reading, I didn't find that at all, but then I couldn't imagine doing one Apologia book all year at this level.

 

So what I'm saying is that there's truly two different paths here, but it doesn't make HOD light or behind. I'm doing another program this year, since we wanted a break from the fullness (not difficulty), but I'm finding hands down HOD beats this other well-known program by far.

We're losing skills this year in comparison.

 

OpenMinded, I have enjoyed reading your thoughts on HOD. I noticed though that you referred to CTC a few times as not being a suitable level for middle school. CTC is recommended for ages 9 - 11 so I wouldn't have thought that it was really intended for middle schoolers. Kids around here enter middle school at 11 or 12. Forgive me if I have misunderstood what you are saying - maybe you were using it with their extension package and you were using it as a middle school curriculum?

However, my understanding is that CTC (primarily) is not intended for middle school. I can't comment on the suitability of CTC's science for the recommended age range as as we didn't do it :)

 

 

Just agreeing here.

]

[Tidbits of Learning]

OpenMinded, I have enjoyed reading your thoughts on HOD. I noticed though that you referred to CTC a few times as not being a suitable level for middle school. CTC is recommended for ages 9 - 11 so I wouldn't have thought that it was really intended for middle schoolers. Kids around here enter middle school at 11 or 12. Forgive me if I have misunderstood what you are saying - maybe you were using it with their extension package and you were using it as a middle school curriculum?

However, my understanding is that CTC (primarily) is not intended for middle school. I can't comment on the suitability of CTC's science for the recommended age range as as we didn't do it :)

 

 

My kids were 10 and 11 (just turned 10 and 11) when they used it. And yes we used it with extensions. The extensions just added more reading not any more depth. We were hitting the guides about a year after they came out. So to clarify I was using it with a 10 yr old 5th grader and an 11 yr old 6th grader with extensions.

4th and 5th here are separate from the lower elementary school and more like a mini-middle school for upper elementary. We then separate to 6th, 7th, and 8th for middle school and 9th-12th for high school. I am comparing to the 5th grade expectations with science in CTC not 6th with extensions.

I am comparing CTC to the 5th grade GLE's. Just so no one thinks I am talking about 6th grade and 7th grade in comparison to CTC. My children were withing the age ranges without extensions when we did CTC.

[abrightmom]

Ann,

 

If I PM you (when I figure out how) will you share the details regarding HOD and the other program? I need to hear the specifics on your comparison. :)

[abrightmom]

DP

[Tidbits of Learning]

I don't mean that HOD is manipulating a relationship with God. I mean that I was really turned off by telling my kids exactly what to pray and believe without explaining other POV's to them. I mean that my personal goals for my children with respect to them forming their own relationships with God do not mesh well with HOD. I was not saying HOD feels that way for everyone.

I will word this more carefully. Now that I have used HOD, I realize that there is really high and low skills in each guide. My children fit into the guides I placed them by the brief descriptions on the placement chart at the time we began homeschooling. They were actually always mid to low age range for the guides. Looking back, I can see that my girls had already gained all the skills that those guides were working on the first 2 years with HOD b/c they were very good writers at the point we took them home from public school. Now that we have homeschooled for close to 4 years, I have the benefit of hindsight. You know hindsight is 20/20. In hindsight, I would have made the changes I wrote of earlier. The first 3 of our years homeschooling using HOD and this year using something more traditional has given me room to reflect. The children being involved with peers that were using other educational paths than ours gave me pause to really observe the difference in abilities and exposure that the other children had received when compared to HOD's education. At the time we started, I could not see where the guides were going and how it would evolve for middle and high school.

Now I have seen the upper guides and I know why they won't work for our family. It may be perfect for your family. I still like the storytime books as a list of read alouds, we enjoy DITHOR as well, and I truly liked BHFHG. It just really didn't work for us from Preparing on up.

[Momof2littles]

I think the post below shows us this exactly.

Now I have a total different outlook on HOD than Openminded's post here. I don't find that HOD's intent is to manipulate their relationship with God, but the guide is showing an example of how to pray for those beginners to seem to be at a loss on how to start and what they can pray for in a general sense. Forgiveness, thanks, glory, etc. I don't see it as an absolute that you "have" to start this way. I also think it's a parent's job to show the way. I also have a different belief in that as a parent I should lead my child to Christ, not to set up their own beliefs. And I mean this respectfully as that is where we differ in what we want out of a program. So what I'm trying to say as we're opposites on what we want for our families and this makes a huge difference in someones view of a curriculum.

I also noticed that most likely due to the next levels not being out yet they had to be used out level?? I never think extensions help with adding olders with youngers as I think it's just "more" not more difficult. And not that I even know if you did this Openminded. So I would say that CTC is certainly not a grade level program for middle school. Also if you have a gifted child you're going to want to make it more difficult, so perhaps it sounds more used out of level than the level intended, but again, they're probably were not more levels available then.

As in my earlier post I thought Apologia wasn't enough in RTR, since it's an easy book, so I opted for the Apologia notebooking journal and was completely surprised by it's lack of any thinking. So we went back to HOD science as written and it was hands down better. I do think thought that HOD could start moving on to more scientific terms. I agree with that. The whole guess vs hypothesis word drives me batty. I also agree that more work doesn't mean more difficult. I think the programs could be done with less as a whole with more critical thinking, but again the jury is out on where the programs are going and I don't know what sort of critical thinking is in MTMM. As for Apologia using quick through reading, I didn't find that at all, but then I couldn't imagine doing one Apologia book all year at this level.

So what I'm saying is that there's truly two different paths here, but it doesn't make HOD light or behind. I'm doing another program this year, since we wanted a break from the fullness (not difficulty), but I'm finding hands down HOD beats this other well-known program by far.

We're losing skills this year in comparison.

Just agreeing here.

]

 

What is the other program you're referring to?

[Momof2littles]

1. CTC is mainly a huge study of the Old Testament. It comes from one POV-Biblical History. I want my middle schoolers to have more than one POV at that age/stage. i agree with this. I want my kids to hear other opinions and know how to defend their faith when they hear other opinions and POV.
   
2. The small projects broken up over 4 days drew things out that could have been done quicker.
   
3. The amount of boxes and resources did not bring an in-depth study as much as more work. It was not challenging to my middle schoolers. It was more busy work.
   
4. No answer keys. Everything was open-ended. The guides essentially become self-study with no parent/teacher input or direction. It is independent work so the lack of answer keys and direction meant that the girls were just completing work and moving on...it felt disjointed to me as the teacher to be listening to narrations and reading narrations that I had not read books for and did not really know what answer the curriculum was looking for...in a nut shell my children tended to answer things to the nature of ...b/c the Bible direct us to...the character followed the Bible...they really knew they just had to say Bible in the answer no matter what subject with HOD and they would be on the right track.
   
5. Science is too light. i have only used LHFHG and I agree!!
   
6. I actually looked at what their grade level counterparts were doing and had been doing for the last few years....it was eye opening. We joined a scout pack at a local Catholic school and I wandered around while ds was doing scouts. There was work posted everywhere and on the doors to the grade level classrooms. DS was noticeably behind his grade/age level peers when they did written work. It was a game changer for me to see that ds was probably a grade level behind his peers and it showed. This made me look up what the middle schools were doing here and the requirements for high school.
   
7. It is not tried and true. No one has finished through high school with it (it is still being developed to those grades). Most of those using it aren't comparing it to anything different or age/grade level peers. So when you ask about it, your replies come from those that are in it for the long haul, but really no one can say if it prepares for college and heavy science/math degrees. Every one has different goals and their children have different pursuits, but if you have a child that already knows they wish to pursue something like veterinary science...it helps to make sure that they have the science background for it in high school to prepare for the science required in college.
   

 

I think HOD is too bossy and too one sided for my taste. I lean Calvinist and all the way reformed doctrine, so I thoroughly agree with the bent of HOD, but my kids are not always going to be hearing things from that perspective. I want them to have guidance as they learn that others have other opinions and POVs. I want to teach them how to defend their faith. I also want them to have a heart for lost people and other cultures. That they can carry on a conversation in an intellectual manner with unsaved people while not losing their bearings bc they are hearing something different than they believe and thinking through/processing those ideas for the first time with no words to say (not that they lose their faith, just don't know how to defend it when it really matters). Just my two cents...maybe HOD does that and can do that but I didn't see it working out for my family long term.

[morningcoffee]

My kids were 10 and 11 (just turned 10 and 11) when they used it. And yes we used it with extensions. The extensions just added more reading not any more depth. We were hitting the guides about a year after they came out. So to clarify I was using it with a 10 yr old 5th grader and an 11 yr old 6th grader with extensions.

4th and 5th here are separate from the lower elementary school and more like a mini-middle school for upper elementary. We then separate to 6th, 7th, and 8th for middle school and 9th-12th for high school. I am comparing to the 5th grade expectations with science in CTC not 6th with extensions.

I am comparing CTC to the 5th grade GLE's. Just so no one thinks I am talking about 6th grade and 7th grade in comparison to CTC. My children were withing the age ranges without extensions when we did CTC.

 

Thanks for clarifying that. We obviously had different interpretations of "middle school".

 

OP, I have been thinking a lot about our experiences about HOD since you posted your original question and I have been reflecting on the reasons we no longer use it. For us it is partly due to the fact that the author has tried to streamline the teacher's manual, incorporating a lot of different subjects, into one compact volume. We now use separate curriculum for our different subjects; nothing is integrated. Yes, I have a huge pile of teacher's manuals on my desk (including a BJU one) but I feel so much confident teaching with the extra support of a TM, dedicated to its subject.

 

I felt lost with the science and the language arts in CTC due to the inadequacy of my own education. This of-course won't apply to everyone.

 

I should add that we have used Ambleside Online before so I am used to the fact that a CM education will look different than a public school education. Obviously if this is a concern, you will need to find a curriculum that does line up more exactly. I suspect that a lot of homeschool curriculums don't match up exactly to the public schools so it is not just a "HOD problem".