Evergreen State College - off our list...

[creekland]

Evergreen State Colleges was never actually on our list, but having come across this article earlier today:

 

Hacker said a 45-year-old male student, who dresses as a woman and goes by the name Colleen Francis, undressed and exposed his genitals on several occasions inside the woman’s locker room at Evergreen State College.

Students from nearby Olympia High School as well as children at a local swimming club share locker rooms with the college.

According to a police report, the mother of a 17-year-old girl complained after her daughter saw the transgender individual walking naked in the locker room. A female swim coach confronted the man sprawled out in a sauna exposing himself. She ordered him to leave and called police.

The coach later apologized when she discovered the man was transgendered but explained there were girls using the facility as young as six years old who weren’t used to seeing male genitals.

“They’re uncomfortable with him being in there, her, being in there and are shocked by it,” parent Kristi Holterman told KIRO-TV.

According to the police report, the local district attorney probably will not pursue charges because he said the “criminal law is very vague in this area.”

 

 

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/college-allows-transgender-man-to-expose-himself-to-young-girls.html

 

I can say that it is definitely off it now.

 

I know that many parents look for different aspects about different colleges and this can be a good one to know how they stand before any applications go out IF one cares about these sorts of subjects (pro or con). Hence, the post.

 

There are several colleges with co-ed bathrooms (and several without them). This kind of goes to an amplified level of that I suppose.

Edited November 2, 2012 by creekland

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Evergreen State Colleges was never actually on our list, but having come across this article earlier today:

 

 

 

 

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/college-allows-transgender-man-to-expose-himself-to-young-girls.html

 

I can say that it is definitely off it now.

 

I know that many parents look for different aspects about different colleges and this can be a good one to know how they stand before any applications go out IF one cares about these sorts of subjects (pro or con). Hence, the post.

 

There are several colleges with co-ed bathrooms (and several without them). This kind of goes to an amplified level of that I suppose.

 

I had several high school friends who attended Evergreen. My mom did part of her degree at one of their satellite campuses; she would have graduated from there had we not moved. Even 20 years ago they were somewhere to the left of Berkley. It appears that the college is defending the policy, which has been in place for several years.

[creekland]

I had several high school friends who attended Evergreen. My mom did part of her degree at one of their satellite campuses; she would have graduated from there had we not moved. Even 20 years ago they were somewhere to the left of Berkley. It appears that the college is defending the policy, which has been in place for several years.

 

I'm sure, to some, their policy is terrific. I just have issues with 45 year old students of the opposite gender sharing locker rooms au natural with gals as young as 6 (or even college aged).

 

I feel it's important for everyone to know what they are getting into when applying, so this thread is more about that than my personal disgust with their policy. Those who like it can add it to their list. Those who don't can keep looking for other places. It definitely is a "fit" issue.

[Alison in KY]

Crazy, just crazy

[Dmmetler]

Mental note-do not let DD join a swim team/take lessons at a college without finding out what their policy is on this!!

[FaithManor]

I'm sure, to some, their policy is terrific. I just have issues with 45 year old students of the opposite gender sharing locker rooms au natural with gals as young as 6 (or even college aged).

 

I feel it's important for everyone to know what they are getting into when applying, so this thread is more about that than my personal disgust with their policy. Those who like it can add it to their list. Those who don't can keep looking for other places. It definitely is a "fit" issue.

 

Absolutely this and while I'm raising my young men to know what is morally right and wrong, and appropriate, the reality is I would not be thrilled to have them spend my money for four years at an institution that displayed so little sense in the matter. Seriously, six year old girls and a nudey middle aged man and THIS IS OKAY??? Nope, I err on the side of safety. And as for that guy, he's an idiot and I don't mind saying it. Even if he never touched one of them or came near them, all it would take for his life and reputation to be ruined would be for one of those girls to get ticked off about him being there and make a claim. That has absolutely happened before and he's crazy to place himself in that position. You just do not get nude with other people's children no matter how bad you want to use the sauna or whatever!

 

Faith

[Elizabeth in MN]

Uhm, it's *very* unusual for a transgendered person to show their body to anyone, much less a room full of people. Generally speaking they have huge issues with the body they were born with. Maybe she was unaware of the fact that teens and children might be using the locker rooms?

[Riverland]

This does not surprise me at all about Evergreen. It is perfectly in line with their reputation. I remember hearing *unusual* stories about them from back when I was in grade school. I was (and still am) quite :confused: by some of their antics.

[Elizabeth in MN]

There is a thread about this on the main board, with more actual information - http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?t=437453

[FaithManor]

Uhm, it's *very* unusual for a transgendered person to show their body to anyone, much less a room full of people. Generally speaking they have huge issues with the body they were born with. Maybe she was unaware of the fact that teens and children might be using the locker rooms?

 

 

I understand this to be true Elizabeth, which is even MORE reason to be ultra-concerned. I have also known a person with the hermaphrodite gene problem and again, nude with anyone she wasn't totally 100% comfortable with - ie. the doctor or someone who loved her dearly - was NOT an option.

 

We have friends in the area and I emailed them. This is not an isolated incident, the transgendered individual as done this openly, many, many, many times and yes, some very young children have been exposed to genitalia.

 

If this were a heterose*xual male going into a female locker room and exposing himself, he'd be arrested. Unfortunately, though this person is "legally" female, the reality is the exposure and potential risk to the children (fear and anxiety, safety issues, etc...remembering that responsible parents teach their children to be afraid - fight or flight reaction - to such behavior in order to try to keep them from falling into the hands of a pedophile etc. a logical person would have to agree that the minors would have every reason to feel threatened) is great. The college is NUTS allowing this because it is going to end up with some girl finally feeling that she's in danger and the accusations will fly. Also, since any psychologist with experience in the matter will tell you this is NOT normal behavior for those undergoing gender reassignment, then one can only conclude that this person may be a perv. For the sake of the children, we have to consider them, not the 45 year old adult. Children come first!

 

Therefore, I could never trust that institution. Just like the Penn State Football establishment, they've made it clear that their priorities do not include protecting children the best they can. Other agendas come first. That's NOT a message I want my sons to have hammered into their heads for four years if I can possibly help it. Someday, they may be fathers. I want them to be the type that fiercely protect their children and develop good instincts for doing so. Hence, choosing a college with better policies pertaining to minors using the facilities and how adults should conduct themselves around those minors.

 

Faith

[Sebastian (a lady)]

In contrast at one swim meet this summer there was a line of adult males waiting for every youth male swimmer to clear the combined locker and restroom area before they went in.

 

I time at a lot of meets. I've been quite uncomfortable with the lack of privacy in most women's locker rooms. Locker area are not restricted to the youth swimmers during most meets. There are parents, timers, officials and whoever else is using the rec center. The fact that the pool is reserved for a meet doesn't mean exclusive use of the locker rooms. This is even more the case during practices.

 

I'm increasingly uncomfortable with youth and adults in the same locker room. What I was comfortable with in college team locker areas where all concerned were team mates and friends is quite different where there are strangers and a 40 year age spread. (And of course 25 years ago, no one in my team locker rooms had a cell phone capable of photos and videos.)

 

I think the team needs to reconsider its facility plan, which will probably be quite a challenge given how heavy the demand for pool lanes often is. But given the recent high profile incidents of abuse of young athletes, it is something they need to pay close attention to. (In other words, youth protection goes far beyond this particular incident.)

Edited November 4, 2012 by Sebastian (a lady)

[creekland]

There is a thread about this on the main board, with more actual information - http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?t=437453

 

I guess I hopped on too late to see it, but honestly? It doesn't matter. It wouldn't be a good fit for my family. I thoroughly disagree with having a 40 something nude male in a female locker room no matter what gender s/he considers themselves. For those who agree - apply. For those who disagree - be forewarned.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

At least back when my friends were attending, there was also a pretty open drug culture. Not sure how that plays now.

[regentrude]

I think the team needs to reconsider its facility plan.... But given the recent high profile incidents of abuse of young athletes, it is something they need to pay close attention to.

 

:confused:

I do not quite see what changing locker room policies in shared facilities has to do with it, since the most likely abuser is the child's coach.

[creekland]

At least back when my friends were attending, there was also a pretty open drug culture. Not sure how that plays now.

 

It would fit the mold. But, to be fair, drugs are available everywhere. It just depends upon how "open" the school is to it.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

:confused:

I do not quite see what changing locker room policies in shared facilities has to do with it, since the most likely abuser is the child's coach.

 

USA Swimming is also trying to put an end to "deck changing" which is changing out of a suit under the cover of a towel, while out on the pool deck or bleacher area. There is some push back that this is just part of the swim team culture and is no big deal. The lack of privacy for those who want it in locker rooms feeds this attitude, imo.

 

I have a low opinion of Evergreen, that was formed decades ago. The folks that I think need a gut check are the team reps and officials. The well being of the swimmers is their responsibility. This college may not best fit in that.

[kalanamak]

At least back when my friends were attending, there was also a pretty open drug culture. Not sure how that plays now.

 

25 years ago there was MJ and mushrooms, but I saw no cocaine, no drunken parties (well, the summer football camp that rented the dorm had a beer party) etc. In med school (back east) there was cocaine, MJ, speed, and parties where there were so many spent whippit shells, you'd have throught it was a war zone. In small town Kansas, around the same time, there was a lot of drinking and speed. So, it was perhaps more "open" as opposed to covert, but drugs was NOT the focus. Politics, being green, music, marine biology, organic gardening, cartooning (the mind behind the Simpsons was just leaving as I arrived) was the focus back then.

 

So, in the three big environments I lived in my college era, Evergreen was the LEAST druggy. Last time I toured there, it looked a lot more "academic" and serious (and money'd) than the early 80s. A dog could have gotten in then, and I know they are much more selective now, having seen friend's children not get in.

 

Frankly, I'm shocked there were children there. I was at the gym nearly daily (a free shower, to save on utilities) and NEVER saw a child from 1979-1984. The "town" part of "town and gown" is well aware of Evergreen, and I'm surprised townie parents let children go out there. I remember Saturday night (nude) water volley ball. We'd put up butcher paper on the windows of the pool to keep it from those who didn't want to see.

 

When I was off to med school, I was getting accepted by mid-range schools. Then I was interviewed by a 75%ile school because they'd had such luck with Greeners. And I got in. Maybe it has changed now (it seems to me more like a public version of Reed College now), but a lot of talented people who made a splash went to school there. It is CERtainly not for everyone. We need little places like this for people who thrive in "different" ways.

 

And remember its motto: Omnia Extares (Let it All Hang Out)

 

ETA: boys: Evergreen was "innocent" in that a female was safe. In small town Kansas I had more than one drunken redneck grab me and stick his tongue down my throat (I was sober). Back east, after my innocent years of men behaving at Evergreen, I discovered that if a guy, even sober and over 25, asked to see your Nordic Track, say no (I let one come over and he lowered his pants and showed me his erection ...he is now a pediatrician, folks). And be prepared for a dinner date to have an *assumption* of sex. And if you walk home from the library with a classmate you've known for months, don't be surprised if he breathily tells you "A woman will forgive a pass, but never the pass not made" and he grabs you and you have to call out for help. NOTHING like that happened to me at Evergreen. Not even close. 1) it was not PC and 2) it would have been inked all over every women's room on campus.

Edited November 5, 2012 by kalanamak

[creekland]

I got curious... for those interested, here's a stats page for Evergreen:

 

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-university-search/evergreen-state-college?searchType=bf_site&q=&bf_cat=bf_

 

They are currently not selective accepting 96% of applicants. One can see stats, etc, by clicking on tabs on that page.

 

It's not where I would aim a top student (due to academics), but if the stats and the lifestyle fit, it's a viable option for pretty much anyone.

[kalanamak]

It's not where I would aim a top student (due to academics), but if the stats and the lifestyle fit, it's a viable option for pretty much anyone.

 

Indeed. Last time I took a student to tour it was over 10 years ago and they grilled her.

 

I'm very grateful they took me. I was a high school drop out with no SAT or ACT, but had the guts to walk in and offer to write the Dean an essay in his lobby. They took me on the essay (I was an older student, and very well read).

 

Some years later, the school was debating changing direction, and an old prof of mine sent me the paper he had presented to the committee. It was about three unpromising students who came from a background of "not fitting in" in school who blossomed in the TESC environment and went on to further schooling. I was one of them. (And the school didn't change direction.)

 

When I practiced in the community, I met many local teens and none of them were ever applying to TESC. So, I don't think it is popular with most students, and, frankly, I find it remarkable that any WTMers would have to "cross it off the list". It wouldn't be on the list at all. That said, if someone is looking for a Reed-like experience without the bill, and for a self-starter (without lectures, grades, or tests, and little inter-student competition, a student does have to have inner motivation), I'm happy there is a niche for those of us who feel out of place and unacceptable in schools where Football Is Big, the dorms are blocks of high rises, or where Wunderkids outnumber the blades of grass.

 

I really blossomed with the seminar approach. I loved getting up in the morning knowing I was going to sit in a room with an adored professor and talk about a good book in detail. I loved that I was taking senior biology the third quarter there, just by doing well and talking to the prof. Just as soon as I got comfortable at one level, I'd go to the prof for the next step up, ask what books I'd have to master before the next quarter, and I'd go home and read all of his/her's current quarter's books as well as my class's books. I'd spend all vacation finishing up, and BOOM, start at the next level without the dog and pony show of finishing English 101 before moving to English 202.

 

By doing this I got through bio and chem, and then moved onto humanities and history, again working up to senior level classes by the third quarter. I stayed for 5 years, and made up for having dropped out of high school. And the state's gamble on me paid off. Although I was not a native, I have returned to settle here and have always practiced with underserved populations.

 

But, I am not singing to the choir (nor do I intend to sing ... I'd be the first to say the place is not for everyone). I don't "hope my son goes there", because I hope he is not so alienated in his early adulthood as I.

 

I also wonder if it *really* was on your list, or if you were just expressing some semi-prurient outrage. ;)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Your comments about class organization are what I remember my mom enjoying. She had done post high school work in many fits and starts around kids and working. I know she enjoyed the classes. I read a great number of the books for her classes and many were pretty interesting. I don't know how the class discussions went but I doubt there was much patience for Reagan or US policies in the mid 80s.

[creekland]

 

I also wonder if it *really* was on your list, or if you were just expressing some semi-prurient outrage. ;)

 

If you read my very first post (first line) you'll see that it never was on our list to start with. ;)

 

The main reason I posted WAS for the fit situation. I am looking at far away schools (with high acceptance rates generally) for my youngest (who wants tropical) and often I know nothing about these schools, so I'm having to do a bit of digging to find out "fit." Stats can be found everywhere - fit is tougher. We can't afford to fly out and just check all of these places out in person.

 

So, even though Evergreen was not ever on our list, posting this could easily assist someone else in determining whether it should, or shouldn't be on their list. Your post was also helpful for people.

 

I'm not one who feels all colleges have to be the same nor that all students have to want the same thing in a college. Evergreen's policy disgusts me, so we'll stay away. Schools we choose may not be right for others. When I report on them they'll know to stay away.

 

I often read all college reports on here - mainly looking for fit, because even if it isn't MY kids, I come into contact with the whole spectrum at school and one never knows when a tidbit of advice could be helpful for them finding their fit. There are far too many people who wrongly think that College A = College B when they are incredibly different. Students who end up with the "wrong" fit are seldom happy campers and many don't graduate (at least, not without transferring).

 

We all win when we share what we find.

 

ps I can see why you impressed folks for med school admissions. Kudos to you!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

For far away schools I wonder if it would be helpful to read a couple months of the campus paper(s). Might be a way to get a feel for a school.

 

I love reading bulletin boards at colleges.

[kalanamak]

 

We all win when we share what we find.

 

 

 

I have thought more about this thread. It has brought back memories. Because I was there, and have met many people who were there, I think of them rather than some policy over 6 cubic inches of men's wiggly bits.

 

Out here I meet Greeners rather often, but back east, I remember these stories:

In med school I was talking to a classmate and describing my school. I pointed out a couple of attendings whom I thought personified Greeners: bright, energetic, socially minded, playful, warm. One did have a beard (not common in NYC at the time) and one did wear a plaid shirt one cold day (ditto). A few weeks later I asked one if he was related to a professor with the same odd last name. He said, no, but that he'd been his student. Out of a hospital system of *thousands* of employees, I had picked out the TWO Greeners that had gotten me my interview!

 

Later that year I was coming down the elevator 22 stories. The kids in there were applicants on a tour. I made a wise crack and greeted them (one of the reasons I picked my med school was there were friendly people on the tour....most places one was glared at my miserable students). I chatted a moment with the most talkative and he did a 5 second imitation of Pee Wee Herman tap dancing. Just a moment of fun. As we exited I asked him where he was an undergrad: Evergreen, some 3500 miles away.

 

Some time after that I was in western South Dakota on a visit with my parents. We did a tour of a mine. My father, a teacher, was the MASTER of short, perfect question on tours. He always asked one. Our guide was a young woman in a ranger outfit, and she handled the question very well, rising up with a bright look in her eye to answer. My father asked another, and we stayed on afterwards talking to her. Daddy was in his 80s, but still loved young people and I could see his "what a fine, intelligent lady" look in his eye. He asked if she did this full time and she said it was a summer job before she went of to college. Where? Evergreen.

 

--So, while I don't think the school made these people, it was what it attracted. There were loafers there, and some odd Libertarians (who were so self-centered, it did nothing to sell me on the philosophy), and a few rich kids just trying to convince mommy and daddy they were in school and not to cut them of, but for the most part, I think of passionate, social-minded, bright-eyed self-starters. I don't think of wiggly bits. :D

[creekland]

To be clear, there's nothing in that article claiming that she purposefully exposed herself to ANYONE, much less "girls as young as 6." Just went about her business, doing normal locker-room-y things.

 

 

And this is exactly the problem I have with the school/policy. ;) If it matches your beliefs/preferences, then apply there. It is a policy I will never agree with.

 

I believe female locker rooms are for those with female parts, or, if that can't happen, those with male parts should be very discreet. Not all of us believe in the "do what you want regardless of others" bit. I do not care to see 6 inches of adult male wiggly parts when that person isn't married to or related to me. If in a medical emergency, I'd make an exception, but those cases are rare - so rare it hasn't happened in the first half of my life. At this college, if I were to go there, I wouldn't have a choice - hence - there are better places for me (or those in my family who share my beliefs) to go.

 

I can relate oodles of contacts with fellow alumni from my Alma mater, and more recently, we've met alumni from both schools my boys chose in places far away from their schools. I'm of the firm belief that there are good alumni from pretty much every school out there. So... it goes back to fit. ;)