Would Saxon 6/5 prepare my DS for AoPS Pre-Algebra?

[Roxy Roller]

My oldest son, who is 11, is going to be through with Saxon 6/5 around Christmas. We switched to Saxon from MUS last Christmas, and I placed him in 6/5, because I was unsure as to exactly where he should be. He does not have any problem with the lessons and gets very few, if any, questions wrong on the tests. I am wondering if he could switch directly to AoPS Pre-Algebra after he is through with 6/5, or should I wait, and switch after 7/6?

 

:bigear:

[Ellie]

I'd wait until he finishes Math 76, although personally, I'd continue with Saxon. :) But 76 is the book that precedes Saxon's pre-algebra texts (Math 87 and Alg. ½).

[wapiti]

Be sure to have him do the pre-test. In terms of level of difficulty, it's on the easy side compared to the book - the skills required for the pretest are the bare minimum. Operations with negative numbers are a prerequisite, though if your ds knows the rest, it may be a simple matter to pull lessons on that from another resource before starting AoPS.

Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[Roxy Roller]

I'd wait until he finishes Math 76, although personally, I'd continue with Saxon. :) But 76 is the book that precedes Saxon's pre-algebra texts (Math 87 and Alg. ½).

 

Thank you for your input, Ellie. I am leaning towards having him go through 7/6 first. As to the unspoken question as to why I am thinking about switching, I guess I am looking for something that makes him think a little more. Saxon doesn't seem to challenge him, but maybe it is this particular level.

[Roxy Roller]

Be sure to have him do the pre-test. In terms of level of difficulty, it's on the easy side compared to the book - the skills required for the pretest are the bare minimum. Operations with negative numbers are a prerequisite, though if your ds knows the rest, it may be a simple matter to pull lessons on that from another resource before starting AoPS.

 

FWIW, my dd had done a bit of 6/5 at school when I pulled her out (I don't remember what 6/5 covered, as the TOC is a bit bewildering). Then she skimmed MM4 and went through MM5 and a few parts of MM6 before starting AoPS Prealgebra.

 

Eta, as you probably know, Saxon and AoPS have vastly different styles. I'm not sure whether that points toward switching earlier or later, to the extent that you have any flexibility in your decision.

 

Thanks, Wapiti. My DS definitely hasn't covered negative numbers, but I think I could cover that from other sources, but I am starting to lean towards 7/6 first, then I will decide whether or not I do Saxon 8/7 or Pre-Algebra. I really do wonder if I should switch sooner than later, because they are totally different in style.:glare:

 

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Ellie]

Thank you for your input, Ellie. I am leaning towards having him go through 7/6 first. As to the unspoken question as to why I am thinking about switching, I guess I am looking for something that makes him think a little more. Saxon doesn't seem to challenge him, but maybe it is this particular level.

If you didn't give him the placement test but just estimated where you thought he should be, it's possible that you placed him in a lower level than he should have been in. :)

[Spy Car]

Thank you for your input, Ellie. I am leaning towards having him go through 7/6 first. As to the unspoken question as to why I am thinking about switching, I guess I am looking for something that makes him think a little more. Saxon doesn't seem to challenge him, but maybe it is this particular level.

 

Then get out of Saxon ASAP. Saxon fails to promote critical thinking, creative problem solving, and mathematical reasoning, all the elements that challenge students to think, and that make mathematics intellectually interesting. It isn't just this level of Saxon that is unchallenging, the whole program is written that way.

 

AoPS is a day and night difference from Saxon.

 

Bill

[kitten18]

Thanks, Wapiti. My DS definitely hasn't covered negative numbers, but I think I could cover that from other sources, but I am starting to lean towards 7/6 first, then I will decide whether or not I do Saxon 8/7 or Pre-Algebra. I really do wonder if I should switch sooner than later, because they are totally different in style.:glare:

 

Anyone else have any thoughts?

I think I would be looking to switch very soon. I would look at MM, probably 6, maybe even 5? You can buy each semester as an individual download.

This would be moving him to something that is at least closer in philosophy to AoPS.

[boscopup]

That is a good question. AoPS prealgebra is written for after 5th grade math, but when you talk to them, they are usually thinking Singapore 5th grade, and that is different from Saxon 6/5 (when I looked at placement tests during Singapore 4B, Saxon 7/6 was the right placement). So I'd probably want to hit the topics that Singapore does through grade 5.

 

Since your son isn't being challenged, I'd probably look at MM to fill in any holes before doing AoPS. MM is similar in scope and sequence to Singapore in those upper grades.

[Jim]

Then get out of Saxon ASAP. Saxon fails to promote critical thinking, creative problem solving, and mathematical reasoning, all the elements that challenge students to think, and that make mathematics intellectually interesting. It isn't just this level of Saxon that is unchallenging, the whole program is written that way.

 

AoPS is a day and night difference from Saxon.

 

Bill

 

 

Before I would make such a statement or take drastic action I would think through what I've already done and then determine the next step. If you entered a level without taking the placement test then I would follow the advise Art Reed, who worked with John Saxon, would likely give, test forward. You could contact him directly for advise. He answers e-mails, mathhelp@thesaxonteacher.com, and returns phone calls on his dime.

 

Give the next test in the book. If you think the result is acceptable, say 85% or better, give the next test. Repeat until the score is unacceptable and start there. Along the way, look at the problems that are missed and note the lesson it was covered (it's offered on the test) and return there for review. Placement is critical, regardless of what program you decide to use.

 

Any program will fail a student if it is not implemented correctly. That's not just math. Why do I have that OPINION? The ps ds attended implemented a new reading program the year he started. It used a blended approach to reading, mixing phonic with site words and reading comprehension. Parent were excited by the administrations willingness to try new things. The problem surfaced later when the work came home. The program has a weekly workbook running about 15 pages. Two pages were site words that asked students to name as many as possible in 58 seconds. Each week the teachers covered just 2 pages. Guess which 2. I doubt the developer of the program would agree with how the program was being used. In my opinion, it wasn't being used at all and the developer could not be blamed for the failure. Of course she was.

 

I have an opinion on many programs. They are my opinion and nothing more. Take them. Leave them. I won't specj ill of any program. Use what works for your child and once you find it stick with it as long as it continues to work and you are satisfied with the progress regardless of anybody elses opinion.

 

 

Just my opinion.

 

Jim

[Spy Car]

Before I would make such a statement or take drastic action I would think through what I've already done and then determine the next step. If you entered a level without taking the placement test then I would follow the advise Art Reed, who worked with John Saxon, would likely give, test forward. You could contact him directly for advise. He answers e-mails, mathhelp@thesaxonteacher.com, and returns phone calls on his dime.

 

 

Members of this forum are pretty familiar with the bizarre behavior of Art Reed, who registered under false names on this forum (multiple times) and then promoted himself in strange rambling posts. He was perma-banned multiple times (as he kept coming back) and would deny his identity even when it was transparent. I'm pretty sure he is not the man I would look to for advise.

 

Beyond that, the Saxon program is what it is. And it it extremely lacking when it comes to developing high level mathematical reasoning and creative problem solving, which is a dramatic contrast with the approach of Art of Problem Solving.

 

Bill

[Roxy Roller]

Thank you for your responses.

 

I am starting to feel like we should be switching. I think I will let my DS finish out Saxon 6/5, then I will move him into MM6. I am hoping we can accelerate through most of it, then I think we will move on to AoPS Pre-Algebra.

[kiana]

Thank you for your responses.

 

I am starting to feel like we should be switching. I think I will let my DS finish out Saxon 6/5, then I will move him into MM6. I am hoping we can accelerate through most of it, then I think we will move on to AoPS Pre-Algebra.

 

Another good option could be Russian Math 6. http://perpendicularpress.com/

 

Furthermore, based on his response to this (which is harder, but not as hard as AOPS) you could see whether AOPS would be a good fit or a different pre-algebra.

[Pen]

My oldest son, who is 11, is going to be through with Saxon 6/5 around Christmas. We switched to Saxon from MUS last Christmas, and I placed him in 6/5, because I was unsure as to exactly where he should be. He does not have any problem with the lessons and gets very few, if any, questions wrong on the tests. I am wondering if he could switch directly to AoPS Pre-Algebra after he is through with 6/5, or should I wait, and switch after 7/6?

 

:bigear:

 

What level of MUS was he at before the switch to Saxon, and why did you leave MUS?

Edited October 21, 2012 by Pen

[Roxy Roller]

I will look at Russian Math...I have heard of it, but honestly don't know much about it.

 

And to the PP, my DS was finishing Epsilon when we switched. MUS was too easy for him, and we had other issues with MUS, and didn't want to pursue it into the higher levels.

[Pen]

I will look at Russian Math...I have heard of it, but honestly don't know much about it.

 

And to the PP, my DS was finishing Epsilon when we switched. MUS was too easy for him, and we had other issues with MUS, and didn't want to pursue it into the higher levels.

 

Then Saxon 65 was probably too low a placement. My son went from Delta to MM5, and had already done a good bit of what it covered. And a copy of Saxon 76 at our library looks fairly easy as compared to MM5. Between MUS Epsilon and pre-algebra all there is is decimals and percents, basically, and decimals and percents are pretty easy. If MUS was easy, and he has decimals and percents down (and maybe also negative numbers is needed), he might be able to go to the AOPS pre-alebra program right now.

Why don't you try the AOPS pretest: [url=http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/products/prealgebra/pretest.pdf][/url]http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/products/prealgebra/pretest.pdf

 

He may be ready now, or if not, you could fill in the gaps between now and Christmas.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Pen

[AimeeM]

Thank you for your responses.

 

I am starting to feel like we should be switching. I think I will let my DS finish out Saxon 6/5, then I will move him into MM6. I am hoping we can accelerate through most of it, then I think we will move on to AoPS Pre-Algebra.

Just a word of advice - give him the placement for Math Mammoth before assuming he can move into MM6 from Saxon 5. My daughter moved into MM6 from CLE and had a good deal of (good) trouble with it - and she's a strong math student. The approach is incredibly different, and Math Mammoth is a bit ahead of some other, more standard, curricula in terms of scope.

BTDT :tongue_smilie:

[Pen]

I will look at Russian Math...I have heard of it, but honestly don't know much about it.

 

And to the PP, my DS was finishing Epsilon when we switched. MUS was too easy for him, and we had other issues with MUS, and didn't want to pursue it into the higher levels.

 

Trying to clarify what I was meaning above: It seems you went from MUS level 5 being too easy for him, to having him redo level 5 with Saxon, which is probably even easier, and less conceptual, than MUS.

 

However, I would not think it is a total waste since it would have brought in a few things that MUS does not cover and would have probably gotten him thoroughly reviewed and very solid in all the arithmetic basics--which is important and nothing to sneeze at, and should serve him well in life.

 

Because AOPS is meant to start at grade 6 and you have had him do 5th grade level material twice already, it seems to me that he should be able to move on to AOPS, with perhaps just the gaps, if any, to be filled in.

 

Personally, I don't see any reason for either Saxon 7/6 (and certainly not 8/7), nor MM6, nor Russian math 6, given what you describe, and assuming AOPS is a good program for him. AOPS gives more of the why's for things while again reviewing arithmetic basics like addition, subtraction etc., so even it alone will help show any gaps that you can then address.

 

My son will probably go from MM5 to AOPS, perhaps with something else available (such as MM6) for gap filling.

[stupidusername]

I'd wait until he finishes Math 76, although personally, I'd continue with Saxon. :) But 76 is the book that precedes Saxon's pre-algebra texts (Math 87 and Alg. ½).

 

if you're still around, Ellie, can you elaborate on this? I'm trying to decide between sticking with Saxon and switching over to AoPS. 

[Ellie]

if you're still around, Ellie, can you elaborate on this? I'm trying to decide between sticking with Saxon and switching over to AoPS. 

 

Well, Saxon math is an excellent series. I don't see a reason to go to a different publisher. :-)