Writing Instruction

[1shortmomto4]

I read all the time how hard finding the write tool to teach writing is probably one of the biggest challenges mom's face - so true! My ds (7th) has severe dyslexia and dysgraphia and he has made so much progress in the reading department (on grade-level now) but I've really been trying to implement more writing. We were working through Winning with Writing (level 3) because it included a bit of grammar (wee bit) but the writing lessons were short, daily and very manageable without overwhelming until today. We had to write a 5 sentence paragraph sharing the differences of summer and winter. I found myself going - when did he learn to write an intro sentence or a closing sentence? I looked back and it was more of a "pick the one" sentence but no actual work. We did use Writing with Ease Level 2 and that worked to train his brain to think logically but we stalled on level 3 because it was too much which is why I switched to WWW but now I find myself thinking - do I need to make another change (as you so often do with Dyslexic kids - in the process of teach, reteach and teach and having to use various tools to do it). Has anyone had any success with any programs out there that are not too expensive or teach intensive? Or do I just plod on through, maybe even pick up WWEase 3 and try that again - he is so creative (loved making up stories when we used the Queens LL (not going back to Queens - to many typos in a copywork book). I am having him try to write more in history (we are using MFW CTG). Maybe I should drop (again) the formal writing instruction and work on journaling or something? I've got the grammar part covered with FLL 4 (doing beautifully on that). Any ideas?

[Heathermomster]

Bump...

 

DS started taking IEW's ATFF with an O-G tutor this year. Thus far, there has been no discussion about introductory sentences or concluding sentences. Everything has been about line for line KWOs and fluffing the sentences up with flowery words. I expected more direct instruction with the actual mechanics of writing and will be discussing this with the tutor next week. Your question has totally nailed my concerns about his writing program.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Heathermomster

[KathyBC]

Bump...

 

DS started taking IEW's ATFF with an O-G tutor this year. Thus far, there has been no discussion about introductory sentences or concluding sentences. Everything has been about line for line KWOs and fluffing the sentences up with flowery words. I expected more direct instruction with the actual mechanics of writing and will be discussing this with the tutor next week. Your question has totally nailed my concerns about his writing program.

 

If you scroll down to page 4 of the ATFF scope and sequence, introductory and concluding sentences will be covered.

[VinNY]

Bump...

 

DS started taking IEW's ATFF with an O-G tutor this year. Thus far, there has been no discussion about introductory sentences or concluding sentences. Everything has been about line for line KWOs and fluffing the sentences up with flowery words. I expected more direct instruction with the actual mechanics of writing and will be discussing this with the tutor next week. Your question has totally nailed my concerns about his writing program.

 

I was recommended to use Diana Hansbury King's Writing Skills series. I just bought it through EPS. She ran schools for dyslexics and children with language impairments. She was trained by Anna Gillingham.

[PeterPan]

Heather, I hesitated to say anything, both because dd isn't labeled dyslexic and because my opinion doesn't seem to be the dominant viewpoint sometimes, but here goes. I think SWB/WTM is right on when they point out that without the ability comfortably to get out your thoughts, you have no foundation for moving on to more sophisticated writing. Somehow people see this disconnect between WTM and SN, but I don't, not when you flex it. Dysgraphia and all these dys's are inherently people struggling to get thought to word and word to paper. The reason varies, but the outcome (problems getting the thoughts out and onto paper) is the same. So in my mind I differentiate structured writing (which I think should come later) and the ability to get it out (which logically seems to me to come first).

 

And I think the WAY you work on getting it out can totally flex to fit the kid. Retelling stories can be a good step, because it eliminates the content issue. Copywork, copying recipes (what my dd did when she was little), Anti-Coloring books, journaling prompts, dictation, there are just tons of ways to work on that step of getting it easier for them to get something out. Typing helps in that, because you're eliminating some of the motor control element and connecting up with their kinesthetic memory for the spelling.

 

Then WTM says to work on outlining. Shudders, can't follow WTM! Ok, WTM tells you to stick your head in the sand and plug them through history encyclopedias. Blech, double blech. We outlined science articles from Muse magazine. Outline anything the kid LIKES. We've been talking IM (interactive metronome), so I assume you're seeing some EF issues. Those EF issues affect their ability to see structure. According to a book I read (Fletcher learning disabilities), apparently dyslexia and adhd at one point were given one label (minimal brain dysfunction, blech again). So I think it's really reasonable to back up and ask whether your kid actually sees structure and gets structure. The Eides in DA advocate for different types of thinkers and suggest that these kids are often narrative, with thoughts and connections that are broad and flowing. I think this thought process alters the type of structure they need. So you end up with this contrast of the type of simplified, linear structure some structure-driven curricula are teaching and the more conceptual, narrative, concept-driven, vsl structure some of these kids are using in their brains. You can PUSH AND SHOVE these kids into that linear structure, but I don't think it necessarily results in good writing for them or long-term happiness. After all, dyslexia and the other dys's don't mean a lack of desire to express. There are even professional writers who are dyslexic. Just from watching people (not a researcher or professional), my conclusion has been that you need to teach them structure in a way that embraces how they think, rather than shoving someone else's linear structure onto them. In a way their graphic approach is more sophisticated and needs a more sophisticated approach to structure to express it.

 

It's sort of a contradiction I guess, to say that kids can't see structure but need a more sophisticated approach. Nevertheless, that's what I'm saying. If you don't, then later their more sophisticated thoughts come out, won't be shoved into the linear structure, and the kids rebel or end up with writing that seems to lack structure and organization. I think it's because they were taught linear thinking/structure as the only right option. The irony is that mature writing is NOT linear, ABC, 123. It's just not. You go read essays on the NYT site, and no one writes like the cr*p* structure these curricula want to teach our kids. But we shove kids who have more sophisticated thought processes, who are making lots of connections, into a linear, abc/123 method and tell them they're bad if they won't.

 

So, at least for us so far, WWS is the most logical thing I've found. It's the only thing I've found that manages to teach structure without being so highly linear. It's more focused on concept (where would the inclusion of this technique make sense, what did you want to emphasize). It teaches structure by showing them how to create structure out of a larger collection of their own thoughts. After all, our kids are bright and come to the table with a lot of thoughts. They don't just need to know to include 5 points, but they need help to know the questions to ask in their own minds to streamline and organize their own information.

 

Whatever, that's just where I'm at. I know there are a number of people on the SN board here doing a more ps type, teach 'em structure, start young and drill 'em till it sticks approach. More power to 'em. I've watched my dh, and frankly I can't see that it works. It can *temporarily* seem to work, but I don't think it works OVER THE LONG HAUL, because it doesn't adequately explain to them how to work with and organize their own thoughts. (vsl thoughts into a linear system, not a good fit) It doesn't work over the long haul because it fails to build the foundational concern of helping them get SOMETHING out comfortably. As long as they can get SOMETHING out, you can teach structure later. Structure isn't the hard part. We've had multiple, multiple veterans say structure didn't click in their SN kid till the kid was past puberty and more like 16. I hear that so much it's not even funny (on the boards and irl).

 

BTW, we're still doing the metronome work. It's awesome. We've been kicking it up a notch by doing digit spans and whatnot from http://www.amazon.com/Auditory-Sequential-Memory-Instructional-Workbook/dp/0972776230 We do the digit spans backward while she's clapping or doing the other tasks with the metronome. I finally feel like I'm breaking through and hitting her right where she is, where her ability to handle tasks breaks down. It directly connects to writing, because in writing they have distractions, motor control, memory of what they were trying to write, etc. etc. all going on at once. So the more I can push the limits on that, the more function she's going to get. See to me that's the other hard thing about being functional for writing with the dys's. Not only do they need to be able to write the stuff, but they have to write it in an environment, not just a vacuum. I point out to her that what I'm doing to her now (with the metronome work plus auditory working memory plus...) is hard but that the point is to increase her ability to be able to function in less than perfect environments like a college dorm. Just a few more years, and my time to help her will be up. Just one more reason I'm more concerned about her ability to write comfortably than I am on the structure of paragraphs. If she can handle her environment, type comfortably, etc. etc. the rest can fall into place.

 

Well check back with me in a year or two, hehe, but that's where I'm at now. :)

 

PS. I haven't used ATFF. I think I may have seen it at the convention. Anyways, I was trying to give you some ways to evaluate whether it's doing what your ds needs at the moment. I think the *foundation* is the most important part. If ATFF is building him a foundation, then it's a good step. He can do structure next year. My dd is doing really well (so far!) in WWS, and it was just overwhelming last year. Foundation is good. Then you can build on the foundation. She's had a big jump between 12 and 13. Some of the things you're worried about may come pretty readily over the next year as he matures and progresses. A year ago I farmed out her writing to a class because I was so anxious over it. This year it's just all clicking. A year can make a BIG difference. :)

Edited September 23, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[1shortmomto4]

Elizabeth - I was hoping you'd respond because I do value and believe your thoughts - you are little farther along in this than I am (although my oldest entered college this year and I've got to remediate his writing before he can retake the placement test but he has way other issues as he is hearing impaired). I will admit, after reading your post, sometimes I wish you'd write in even easier terms for me to understand as I'm not totally familiar with some of the big words but I got a lot out of what you said and it resonates with my thinking. I guess I get caught up the "everybody else" syndrome which, in truth, is not my style. I get caught up in the "why can't my square pegs fit in the round hole" but, unfortunately, I have little support in real life so it is hard to keep my mind focused. I think we just might venture back to the WWE and pick back up where we left off and work s l o w l y. He does very well with FLL and has retained that over the summer (which for him is awesome because he forgets things he learned during the week over a weekend). I knew that the first 2 levels had taught him and his brain to think logically and see it through to the end and to remember what he had heard - listening skills can't be stressed enough. You are right, somewhere down the line he'll be able to put these thoughts on paper. The 5 sentence formula might be nice but lends itself to being limiting in its scope - especially if you have a child that has a creative bent and just needs some help getting it out.

 

When you say WWS - is that the program that comes after WWE?

[Pen]

I read all the time how hard finding the write tool to teach writing is probably one of the biggest challenges mom's face - so true! My ds (7th) has severe dyslexia and dysgraphia and he has made so much progress in the reading department (on grade-level now) but I've really been trying to implement more writing. We were working through Winning with Writing (level 3) because it included a bit of grammar (wee bit) but the writing lessons were short, daily and very manageable without overwhelming until today. We had to write a 5 sentence paragraph sharing the differences of summer and winter. I found myself going - when did he learn to write an intro sentence or a closing sentence? I looked back and it was more of a "pick the one" sentence but no actual work. We did use Writing with Ease Level 2 and that worked to train his brain to think logically but we stalled on level 3 because it was too much which is why I switched to WWW but now I find myself thinking - do I need to make another change (as you so often do with Dyslexic kids - in the process of teach, reteach and teach and having to use various tools to do it). Has anyone had any success with any programs out there that are not too expensive or teach intensive? Or do I just plod on through, maybe even pick up WWEase 3 and try that again - he is so creative (loved making up stories when we used the Queens LL (not going back to Queens - to many typos in a copywork book). I am having him try to write more in history (we are using MFW CTG). Maybe I should drop (again) the formal writing instruction and work on journaling or something? I've got the grammar part covered with FLL 4 (doing beautifully on that). Any ideas?

 

I've been struggling with the writing here too. No answers, alas.

 

But I wanted to share that I think one problem is that (as with reading before that got to grade level for my ds) if the writing assignments are boring and do not match the child's interest level it adds blah onto difficult. If something can at least be kind of interesting to the child that helps. 5 sentence paragraphs and 5 paragraph essays are awfully rigid, and rarely interesting, nor do writers usually think that way when writing. And then add to that the topic of comparing seasons is unlikely to thrill the imagination of a 7th grader...especially one who used to like to make up creative stories.

 

Could you maybe get him to things that interest him by scribing for him or using a tape recorder or some such, and then cleaning up the mechanics later?

[PeterPan]

Elizabeth - I was hoping you'd respond because I do value and believe your thoughts - you are little farther along in this than I am (although my oldest entered college this year and I've got to remediate his writing before he can retake the placement test but he has way other issues as he is hearing impaired). I will admit, after reading your post, sometimes I wish you'd write in even easier terms for me to understand as I'm not totally familiar with some of the big words but I got a lot out of what you said and it resonates with my thinking. I guess I get caught up the "everybody else" syndrome which, in truth, is not my style. I get caught up in the "why can't my square pegs fit in the round hole" but, unfortunately, I have little support in real life so it is hard to keep my mind focused. I think we just might venture back to the WWE and pick back up where we left off and work s l o w l y. He does very well with FLL and has retained that over the summer (which for him is awesome because he forgets things he learned during the week over a weekend). I knew that the first 2 levels had taught him and his brain to think logically and see it through to the end and to remember what he had heard - listening skills can't be stressed enough. You are right, somewhere down the line he'll be able to put these thoughts on paper. The 5 sentence formula might be nice but lends itself to being limiting in its scope - especially if you have a child that has a creative bent and just needs some help getting it out.

 

When you say WWS - is that the program that comes after WWE?

 

Well glad you're getting some ideas! Yes, WWS is the program after WWE. We're doing WWS this year for 8th. It has them outlining, summarizing, and writing paragraphs and beginning essays. You could look at it to see if it would be better this year or next. I'm not sure he needs to finish WWE to go into WWS (we certainly didn't). However I'd go into WWS when it looks like it will be comfortable, not stressful. If you pick back up with WWE, I would suggest you do outlining as well. He can outline anything he enjoys reading. Does he hunt? He can outline articles in Field and Stream magazine. Seriously. You look at each paragraph and ask what the point was of the paragraph. Write it down. What's the point of the next paragraph? Write it down. You just keep going through like that. If he can do one level outlines like that comfortably and get out his narration or summary of something he reads or listens to, he's going to be fine in WWS.

 

There are also outlining workbooks you can try, like the one from Remedia. Just google or look at Rainbow Resource. Or WTM has outlining instructions. Or the Linguisystems Executive Function Training Workbooks have exercises to teach outlining. Just seeing structure and organization can be very hard for some kids. Any work you do on that is good.

 

BTW, we did our outlines last year as mindmapping or graphic organizers, first on the whiteboard and later on an app on the ipad. So they were circles with lines branching out and more circles. Even outlines don't have to be linear. They can be graphic and visual. :)

[Heathermomster]

Thank-you for all great info and responses Ladies. Thanks to the scope and sequence provided by KathyBC, I know that DS will be reviewing paragraph openers and clinchers in about 4 lessons.:D

 

DS is absolutely a narrative thinker. The first few IEW lessons have involved rewriting provided paragraphs using KWOs and dress-ups, so the student is provided the content. I scribe. Honestly, I can't tell what type of foundation is being laid. I'm going to speak with the tutor. I already own WWE3 and half of WWS. I'm going to review those and maybe try to get my hands on the Hanbury King materials.

 

I don't know if I'm being impatient or if I have legitimate concerns. I know for certain that I don't want to pound the kid and teach him contrary to his learning style. I'm going to pay more attention to see whether DS is writing comfortably. This school year, I require DS to provide complete sentences when giving written answers for subjects like history and science.

 

OhE,.. It's awesome that IM is going well for your DD. My son's trumpet tutor has noticed a big difference in my son's attention this year, and DS is starting to work more independently for certain subjects too. That's a big change for us. I don't know whether it's IM or maturity; however, DS turns 13 in November. Calling a 13 yo boy mature feels like an oxymoron to me. Oh well..

Edited September 24, 2012 by Heathermomster

[Heathermomster]

BTW, we're still doing the metronome work. It's awesome. We've been kicking it up a notch by doing digit spans and whatnot from http://www.amazon.com/Auditory-Sequential-Memory-Instructional-Workbook/dp/0972776230 We do the digit spans backward while she's clapping or doing the other tasks with the metronome. :)

 

This sounds fascinating. I'd like to hear more about this as your DD progresses.

[PeterPan]

This sounds fascinating. I'd like to hear more about this as your DD progresses.

 

Hmm, well what's to say? When we got our neuropsych eval, he had her do backward digit spans. So for the first part of that book, I'm having her repeat the digit spans back to me backward while she does the clapping with the metronome. That way she's using her motor planning AND handling a distraction AND working her EF, all at once. That of course is the combo you need for writing to work. ;) Later in the book it switches to letters and whatnot, and I think then we'll try a technique the VT people tried with her (that she flopped horribly at) where they would have you remember the first number/letter in the prior sequence. So I would say A, D, B, and she would remember that the first letter of the *prior* sequence was F and that's what she would respond with. And do all that while doing the motor planning and handling the distraction of the metronome. Hehe, if she gets through that for all the levels in the book, she's going to be a seriously functional chick!

 

Our VT place wants her to do some kind of vision therapy activity with the metronome. They started it last time she was in, and she came home overwhelmed. That's typical for her though, because the distractions really are so hard to deal with. It's why we paused/dropped VT last year, because she had hit a wall. So I told her we'd do your (Heather's) metronome protocol using the clapping and digit spans and build her up, THEN go into the vision plus metronome. So I'm thinking there's a whole other way there we can use the metronome, using it alongside vision tasks.

 

I'm hoping, ultimately, the metronome work will allow her to handle greater distractions like music. We flopped at Callirobics because she couldn't handle the distraction of the music. Tomorrow I'm starting her on the handwriting program (Write From the Start) Yllek had mentioned here on the boards. It's sort of a precursor to Callirobics, I guess you could say. It's the same swirling type motions, only on steroids and without any distractions. So I'm hoping if we work on motions without distractions and distractions without motions, maybe we can put the two together eventually and be able to do motion with distraction. Lost yet? :lol:

 

The clapping protocol with the metronome wasn't very hard for her, so that's why I thought I'd add in these other things. But then I haven't been able to get her to talk during it. When *I* talk during the clapping/metronome, I lose my place miserably. She's not too thrilled with the whole thing, so getting her to do the digit spans at least has her talking. The point with the backward (I think, just going on what the np wrote) was that it adds that step of processing. To him it showed reserve. Like someone might get digit spans but max out their ability. So to do it backwards is the next step. I don't know. I can see her progressing in the book, and progress is good. I hadn't really found an effective way to work on the digit spans while encorporating a tolerable level of distraction (if that makes any sense, mercy), so that's why I'm so pleased. Too much distraction (music, metronome too loud, whatever), and she's overwhelmed. So I'm just pleased at how well it's working so far.

 

Anyways, that's what I'm up to and where I'm trying to go with it. :D

Edited September 24, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[RamonaQ]

Verticy Grammar/Composition was super successful for my very dyslexic/ dysgraphic ds. It is based on the Hansbury King books.

 

I Looooovvvveeed it (we did 2.5 years....kinda ditched the final year to move more into essay). Ds, 13 yo, and 8th grade, is now a fearless writer. By the end of last year, he was writing a 1-2 page essays each week (12pt typed/ single spaced; usually 5 paragraphs). This year, he happily writes a paragraph, usually several spread out across subjects, and says "Is that all I need?" :lol:

 

Ds easily writes in either narrative or expository genre. I have shared ds's writing with other writing tutors, and they are impressed. Additionally, ds passed our state's writing test (2 essays-- 1 expository; 1 persuasive). Thus, I know this method has "worked" based on these 2 evals.

 

It was not cheap, but it was super effective, and very easy to implement because all the lessons are scripted out. If you don't go with it, I do rec. the Hansbury King books, just make sure you add more practice.