Bang!Zoom! Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Long story short, I'm really frustrated with assessment, I don't even have the energy to give the back story on all this. What I need is this... Advice on really accurate assessment (beyond what I know to be true) from outside services. I'm under some serious time pressure today, but if I could just get a ball rolling on this for free time later, that would be great. Archived links, experiences or web resources to investigate..really anything. I'm probably not after intelligence scoring ability styled testing, but some sort of programs that relay abilities in percentages against a normed population by age. Thanks for any and all advice, if I'm not clear on where I'm going with this, ask questions. I need to put an end to this problem, the sooner the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAIMOM Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 I am not sure what you are looking for exactly. I have used CLASS testing service with my kids. I noticed they have a new test point that does grade placement. I love that you now can do a standardized test online and get instant results. The info can be found here http://www.homeschools.org/enrolling/standardizedTesting.html#testingOptions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 The two basic categories of tests are achievement/performance testing and intelligence/ability testing. I'm probably not after intelligence scoring ability styled testing, but some sort of programs that relay abilities in percentages against a normed population by age. So, what you're after intelligence/ability testing, and are looking for percentiles, correct? Personally, I'd be looking for an individual IQ test that provides the types of subtest scores you are looking for, and a tester who has experience testing gifted kids. Is there a possibility of a twice-exceptionality? There's a lot of info about IQ and other tests at Hoagies, and more at the GDC. Three of my kids have done the WISC, one of which has also done the WJ Cog and the DAS-II at school. Next I want to see what the SB-5 is like :tongue_smilie:. I greatly dislike the WJ Cog. The WISC is ok, I guess. The DAS-II was interesting, though I don't know its subsections as well as the WISC. I need to put an end to this problem, the sooner the better. What's the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 I'm experiencing some world class conflict basically. I need sources to provide charts, graphs, percentiles, basically report card style validation beyond what I can provide; it's not objective enough you see? A great example is Aleks - when a child uses this program, it shows graphically what skills are considered "mastered/fluent" in bar graph form, pie charts, percentiles, basically just a lot of angles of comparison. This is instantaneous proof of where she's "at" in relation to age/skills and "assigned" grade levels. (I don't buy into this stuff, but I'm under pressure to provide it anyway.) A great example of what's NOT working is say, the state based MSP test. She took that last April, and we have still NOT received formal paper scores in the mail...they say that the results will not be mailed until late September. Now seriously, what good does that do? Barf. :glare: I've been trying my best to facilitate the two worlds and I'm truly at the end of my rope with this. I'm serious, it's last straw time. Whatever testing methods are out there need to be quick little snapshots for record keeping, universally recognized, carry some weight to the "label/name/prestige" of it all (not that *I* personally care here) - and can satisfy the need for "grades" and proof. This whole thing is so ridiculous and I am more put out than is imaginable that I even have to deal with this. It takes so much time from productive possibilities of learning. I'm going to chase down the links in the thread so far later tonight when things calm down a bit. I have about a half an hour left to finish submissions, then the cards fall where they may. I've already made up my mind firmly that we are going independent once there is some structure here, but I have to form a detailed game plan of presentation and security when I drop the bomb so to speak..lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 I'd be looking for an individual IQ test that provides the types of subtest scores you are looking for, and a tester who has experience testing gifted kids. Is there a possibility of a twice-exceptionality? You know, I see the phrase twice-exceptional all the time; and my current understanding of it is really weak. Isn't that when there is an unexpected change in across the board ability? One either drops below what would be expected, or one area shoots up really high? As in some sort of uneven pattern? I'm really not that fluent in what that means. I've hit submit on the revision. I swear to God if they send this back unapproved I quit on the spot. Made it with 9 minutes left..lol.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Who is this conflict with and of what nature? The school district? A school/teacher? Whatever testing methods are out there need to be quick little snapshots for record keeping, universally recognized, carry some weight to the "label/name/prestige" of it all (not that *I* personally care here) - and can satisfy the need for "grades" and proof Typically, testing for record-keeping is of the achievement variety, not the IQ/ability variety - a different ballpark. They come in many varieties, from the individual sort administered by a psych (such as the WIAT or the WJ Achievment), to the group variety (ITBS), without ceilings (NWEA MAP), etc. If you're trying to advocate for more advanced work, that may also affect what might be the best test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 You know, I see the phrase twice-exceptional all the time; and my current understanding of it is really weak. Isn't that when there is an unexpected change in across the board ability? One either drops below what would be expected, or one area shoots up really high? As in some sort of uneven pattern? I'm really not that fluent in what that means. I've hit submit on the revision. I swear to God if they send this back unapproved I quit on the spot. Made it with 9 minutes left..lol.. Twice-exceptional (2E) just means gifted with a learning disability. Typically, there would be a very uneven pattern amongst sections on an IQ test, but it depends on the test and what the learning issues are. Some 2E kids score average because the weaknesses "cancel out" the strengths and vice versa. What your submittal of the revision is about, I have no clue :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 I'm not really sure what happened with my submission to the ALE. All I know is that the design of study was rejected twice and I'm really tired. It's all a blur. I want out, I'm done, but getting from out to done is going to be a new experience for me. I'm totally cool with the way I teach and guide, I must be doing something right and combined with that she's a pretty disciplined kid. When it comes time for some outside source or voice to officially "place/grade/evaluate" her, she does okay for herself. Leaving the ALE means losing access to the "free" (ie: useless) scoring methods of state standards and benchmarks. They provide the MSP and MAP, along with "official" voice to her progress...I know..it's stupid..but it's real. These records are a big deal around here... Those are the items I need to replace, the scoring methods and tests, those benchmarks of progress which do not come from "mom." I am really disgusted right now - we need to be done and out of this system, it's in the way of anything real. But my proposal to go independent has to include an independent "real" plan for assessment or there's going to be conflict and disagreement here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 It really sounds like the ALE isn't meeting your needs. If that is the case then I wouldn't look back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 You got it, if it was solely up to me, we'd of been vapor last year. I'm at the point now where I don't care - the hours invested into this for me personally aren't worth it and are worth a little bit of scorn and disagreement. I'd like to avoid the conflict and respect his views. We are going independent - I just have to have a rock solid plan that will be based in agreement in our home. That's going to be a challenge, but worth putting effort into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Leaving the ALE means losing access to the "free" (ie: useless) scoring methods of state standards and benchmarks. They provide the MSP and MAP, along with "official" voice to her progress...I know..it's stupid..but it's real. These records are a big deal around here... Those are the items I need to replace, the scoring methods and tests, those benchmarks of progress which do not come from "mom." I am really disgusted right now - we need to be done and out of this system, it's in the way of anything real. But my proposal to go independent has to include an independent "real" plan for assessment or there's going to be conflict and disagreement here. Personally, for annual testing, I prefer the MAP greatly over the ITBS because I get more information about growth and level. However, for purposes of "proof", the ITBS seems to be very well accepted (plus I don't know how one finds a non-school-related entity to administer the MAP, whereas there may be more test administration options with the ITBS). Plus, unlike the MAP, the ITBS breaks out different categories of learning within subjects, and has the option of including more subjects. That's all I got. I don't know a thing about ALEs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 This site I'm going to mention in a second isn't a universal application for independent status...it's geared specifically for WA state, but I've heard so many good things about it; I've not dedicated time to looking into it because of the former plans. I'm pretty sure there are pathways in here that will help me, and it's way up there on the list of things to do. I see it right now as a two-fold struggle. Point 1. Records and transcripts that (for a lack of a better term) are considered "legitimate" and hold water no matter where you might be... Point 2. A feeder off that main idea is the testing issue, the "accreditation" and validity of the tests as high quality and outside of the parent/instructor role of record keeping. Any way, the site is here: http://www.thehomescholar.com/ I need to educate myself on this and the ideas there. Then I'll have to chase down names/availability of tests in the area and hope to pieces they aren't too expensive. If things stay the same here (we don't move) we'll be filing for intent to home-school independently and withdraw from the ALE around the first week of October. If they send back one more email rejecting the course outline for the year, then it's immediate, I am totally fed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Ouch. I'm glad I live in MI if you have to spend $350 to have someone else write up a transcript for what you are doing. That makes no sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 Update, email notification. Rejected a third time. We are done. I quit. It's going to take me a day to calm down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 I've read all of your posts on this thread (I think). At least in our district, you have to conform to their vision of homeschooling or you can't do ALE. And if you have a younger child doing high school level work, you can forget about getting credit for it. If you need to do a standardized achievement test, the ITBS works. You can give it above grade-by-age level to get better information. Last year I gave my son a test three years ahead of age and had them report the scores as compared to age peers as well as kids three years older. That way I have the paper that says he's at the 99th percentile down the line as well as a paper that gives me a better idea of his strengths and weaknesses as defined by the test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diviya Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) Assuming you are still looking for info... When my husband agreed for me to homeschool, it was with the understanding that I would obtain outside verification for his peace of mind. We went through various thoughts, but in the end I decided on individual achievement tests. We did the Wiat before we started, and the Woodcock-Johnson a year later. The plan was to do it every year, but after he saw the results, he said he didn't need to see any more outside verification. Score for me! The individual achievement tests are nationally normed, give percentiles and grade levels. They are also somewhat open-ended, so the questioner can keep going up in level of difficulty until your kid reaches their level of incompetence. The standardized tests like the SAT and the ITBS are also nationally normed and give percentiles and grade levels. The problem can be that the info isn't very useful for a gifted kid. Since you have to pick a grade level to give them, that's all they are going to get, if you know what I mean. If you pick the 5th grade test, and your kid aces it, you aren't really going to know if that means they should be at the 6th grade level or the 9th grade level; you just know that 5th grade was too easy. My understanding is that if it says 8th grade level on a group achievement test for 5th grade, it doesn't mean your child performed at the 8th grade level - it means an eighth grader would perform at the same level on that 5th grade test. Whereas on the individual test, an eighth grade level means your kid can do eighth grade work. If you are just looking for something like 99th percentile across the board, the regular standardized test is fine. If you need more nuanced info, the individual test would be the way to go. The group test is much less expensive, but if you administer it yourself it eats up a whole bunch of school time and is a pain in the neck. For the individual test, you just drop your kid off and then pick them up two or three hours later for a couple of days. I gave my kids the ITBS last fall, one grade level up and it was a horrific experience. It ate up almost two weeks of school. Hope that was coherent and that something in there helped :) Eta: Kai's suggestion above is a good one, but my husband wouldn't have accepted a test administered by me as outside verification. Make sure whomever you are answering to doesn't feel the same way! Edited September 6, 2012 by Diviya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 We also do outside achievement testing every two years. They work much better with kids who are at different levels in different areas and above grade testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathwonk Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 If your child is say 12, I suggest taking the SAT, after preparing of course. This is a score that is universally recognized as a gateway to gifted programs like Duke TIP. We did this with our kids. it tests stuff up through about mid 10th grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted September 6, 2012 Author Share Posted September 6, 2012 All this is really helpful. We were able to talk and sort out boundaries, and I've promised to provide a blueprint for accredited assessment and explain what it means, what institutions will accept the records, etc. Pretty nerve wracking situation. Tomorrow I am going to the ale and withdrawing her officially, filing the intent to homeschool and study options for portfolios. Tomorrow when we are at the library I promise to study all these comments further, its just been a difficult day here. Things will look better in the morning. Thanks for helping out with this, I really appreciate the effort to help. Pass the Kleenex. Sniff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quark Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I'm so sorry this is happening! As you know I had been following your ALE thread with interest because of the similarity to what we're facing with the charter school. I really like Diviya's explanation. And agree with mathwonk although I know some younger-than-12yos who have done well with the SAT (but whether or not it helped with placement, advocating etc is so institution-dependent). Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted September 7, 2012 Author Share Posted September 7, 2012 Things are getting a little bit clearer for me now. I didn't have anywhere near enough time to study up on this today, lots of errands got in the way. What I am getting the view on though is that I'll need to select many outside tests, and that's simply because she is not even scholastically, she is not going to be a good fit for a one size fits all skills sort of test. I'll probably have to approach it in dual views, open ended to get the best picture. Sort of like an average over the year. The little bit I did look today, and with what we have currently for state records, it would be really easy to put in applications and get those started now. I need to look further into the future and keep in mind some sort of portfolio creation in mind to guide what's useful for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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