VSL Math Questions

[Michelle in IL]

I am discovering that my 11yo ds is a VSL. Well I guess I’ve kinda known it all along. This learning style totally perplexes me as I am completely the opposite. I have done some online reading and have ordered a couple books to read through as well.

I am trying to figure out our plan for next year and am researching curriculum and brainstorming what I can do to help him better. He will be 6th grade. He has always been good in math conceptually but computation is hit and miss. He is very easily frustrated and math ends in a struggle more than 50% of the time. He resists showing his work but has done it when pushed. When he does it carefully, he is very accurate but it is painful for him. He knows his facts but gets frustrated doing "bigger" numbers or long decimals. He likes to do things in his head (and is fairly good at it) but can't keep enough in his head to do longer problems. So question is if they know their facts and they know how to do the problems conceptually, is there a point when you just let them whip out the calculator?

And what do you do once you get to Algebra with these VSLs? Don’t they have to show their steps?

I was leaning heavily toward Kinetic Books PreAlgebra for him next year. He did the sample and liked that it was on the computer and said the visual part of it helped him tremendously. He also liked the game in the sample, but I don't know that that is a part of each lesson. I am trying hard to wrap my brain around this whole to parts thing. It is so foreign to me. I know KB is very visual but is it considered whole to part? Because he gets math concepts fairly easily, I have recently been wondering about AoPS, but he is so easily frustrated I just don’t know if it would be a good fit. Any input there? I've also thought about MUS for PreAlgebra or possibly even solidifying Fractions and Decimals the MUS way first. Also considered sticking in RS Geometry. Grrr. Sounds like I'm all over the place. :glare: Oh and for background, we did RS B-D and then Singapore US 3-6. We’ve also been working through Hands on Equations this past year.

He is a sciency kind of kid. Loves to build things. He’s done some robotics. Likes aerospace. I see him being an engineer so I want to make sure his math is solid. Any advice?

[Alte Veste Academy]

I am :bigear: for talk about upper level math for VSL kids.

[TippyCanoe]

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Edited November 21, 2012 by Doodler

[Beth in SW WA]

Some hands-on, VSL-friendly algebra ideas here.

She 'shows' or tells me her steps. I don't make her write out answers to everything especially when she 'sees' the answer in her mind. So we do 50/50. I try to make it fun. Sometimes we have a little too much fun as the pics demonstrate. :)

 

HTH!

 

ETA: We are working on the Pythagorean Theorem this week. I pinned some ideas here. I'm very excited. My dds will enjoy these hands-on lessons.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Beth in SW WA

[Alte Veste Academy]

ETA: We are working on the Pythagorean Theorem this week. I pinned some ideas here. I'm very excited. My dds will enjoy these hands-on lessons.

 

Very cool! The additional vat of c-rods I just bought is about to come in very handy! :tongue_smilie:

[LittleIzumi]

Also, what about Patty Paper Geometry?

[wapiti]

Because he gets math concepts fairly easily, I have recently been wondering about AoPS, but he is so easily frustrated I just don’t know if it would be a good fit. Any input there?

 

FWIW, AoPS Prealgebra helped my VSL dd11 a lot, both with developing patience in the face of potential frustration and with the realization that there comes a time to when they have to write their calculations down in an organized manner. The focus is not on how quickly you can finish many problems of the same type - they're all different, and all require a little different thought.

 

As for whether it would be a good fit, it's hard to say - every kid is so different in terms of strengths and weaknesses. I think that the big-picture perspective of AoPS is fantastic for VSLs generally, and I wish I had learned math this way. As for the discovery method, for my dd, it worked better when we did the lesson problems together on the white board rather than when she worked on the lesson problems alone on paper, which she did for the first few chapters.

 

The calculator would be a huge, huge mistake with AoPS Prealgebra, because the whole point of some of the problems is looking for the "easier" or "smarter," not-as-calculation-intensive route to solving them. A student wouldn't learn those lessons if they just use a calculator.

 

Also, don't forget about the AoPS videos. Dd considers AoPS to be much more fun than a more traditional approach - the problems are more interesting.

[Michelle in IL]

Oh so much to think about! Checking out all the links provided. Thank you!

 

Wow! That Crewton Ramone stuff is very cool. Need to seriously consider getting some blocks and fraction overlays. I feel like it could really solidify fractions for him.

 

Thanks for the insight into AoPS. Still considering. Hmm...

 

I had Patty Paper Geometry on my list also. Maybe if we only did math every day we could do it ALL!

 

Thanks so much for the responses so far although I may be farther away from deciding. Too much good stuff out there! What a problem to have! :001_smile:

[txhomemom]

I have a VSL child as well and it was much easier teaching math in the early years. We could use more fun manipulatives and do Rightstart Math, etc. There were some great recommendations on here, I will have to check them out more to see what will work for my dd. One problem I am running into is that my VSL child does not do well with audio instruction, so things like Teaching Textbooks, MUS, etc are all out. She really prefers a workbook style and pages that are not cluttered. The only really good option I can come up with for algebra and beyond is Algebra Fresh Approach (there is also geometry and algebra II). If nothing else looks like it will work for us that is my plan for my dd for high school. I also was contemplating AOPS, but here is the biggy, I cannot wrap my brain around it. Although it seems interesting in presentation the sample pages online look really wordy. I would rather math get to the point a lot quicker, so for me as a teacher I just would not be able to teach it and I know my dd would not self-teach math (her least favorite subject).

 

I also have the same problem with my dd doing mental math for all math problems. She refuses to write down anything unless absolutely necessary and even then she does everything her way. For example, she hates doing subtraction and addition problems in columns. She just manipulates the numbers in her head or writes them left to right. It kind of drives me crazy because visually I can only work the problems in the traditional column method. I guess I am somewhat weak in mental math and of course in school I only learned traditional techniques. I have finally decided that I am just going to let my dd work the problems in whatever method she chooses unless she gets a lot wrong then I will have her show her work more.

 

I am going to follow this thread and see what other ideas everyone comes up with.

Edited June 11, 2012 by txhomemom

[SophiaH]

Does anyone have anything further to add to this older thread? I'm in almost the same position as the OP, and while I'm planning on continuing through SM 6 this year, I'm also looking ahead. Or maybe Michelle has an update? :001_smile:

[....]

I guess I could add to this.  I've been struggling with our VSL for 5 years now.  So far, the only programs we've been successful with lately is Life of Fred and Hands-on Equations (he did like Miquon when he was younger).  I plan to add AOPS Prealgebra next year.  You can't show them stuff step-by-step-by-step.  They get overwhelmed.  They need to see the whole thing and work it out themselves.  It's bizarre.  I did see an article somewhere that said, "Just give them a calculator and be done with it."  It's truly tempting.

 

Can I post some links that have helped me?

 

Book about teaching VSLs:    http://www.amazon.com/Picture-It-Teaching-Visual-Spatial-Learners/dp/1478282312/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1374749000&sr=8-2&keywords=visual-spatial+learners

 

Articles from Gifted Development Center:    http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/Articles/visual_spatial/visualspatial_index.html

 

Intro to VSLs:   http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/Visual_Spatial_Learner/vsl.htm

 

List of articles on Hoagies:    http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/visual-spatial.htm

 

Also, if you google dyslexia and visual-spatial learner, there are a number of articles on that topic.  According to some, there is a link between the two.  

[SophiaH]

Thanks for your response. Yes, I agree there are some links between the two, at least in my dd, and I suspect some dysgraphia as well.

No, she cannot take multi-step directions (in anything)...her eyes glaze over by about the second step. She has great conceptual understanding and did wonderful with RS in the younger years. She never wants to write anything down, but now that she is starting to do multi-step problems, her error rate has shot up (although it was never great to begin with). We work corrections together, and I am continuously trying to get her to talk me through what she did step by step, using math language. She cannot do it...I'm not sure why (part of the big picture thinking, I suspect), but we just keep working on it. She's been working on Timez Attack over the summer to try to get her multiplication recall quicker since she usually does skip counting for the bigger numbers. She can't memorize random information to save her life, poor girl.

She enjoys LOF, which we use as a supplement. She'll start D&P and HOE this fall alongside possibly Singapore 6A, although I'm open to going a different direction, if needed. She's very bright, working above her level in many other subjects, and she understands the math concepts easily, although she forgets them easily if they are not continually used. I think something where the math is used in context, and then continually used and built upon would be ideal. I'm not sure if AoPS is like that, but I worry about LOF not having enough practice for her to be used as anything other than a supplement.

[Nicholas_mom]

Oh, you guys all describe my child to a T :lol:

 

I am always looking at VSL threads, hoping to gleem as much as I can with information. 

 

This year I want to try LOF Fractions (we already started fractions w/MUS & MM last year), LOF D&P as a SPINE and adding MM Blue TOPICAL Series for practice.  I want to add in the Spring HOE and maybe Jousting Armadillos for PreAlgebra OR AOPS Pre-Algebra with vidoes on the site OR Penrose the Cat series.  I hear Jousting Armodillos is less intense than AOPS.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/466107-has-anyone-used-jousting-armadillos-or-other-prealgebra-resources-from-arbor-center-for-teaching/?hl=%2Bjousting&do=findComment&comment=5039856

 

I also have LOF Pre-algebra and Algebra w/Biology to use for the future.  There is also Real World Algebra for practice.

 

DS LOVES LOF and wants to keep going even though it's sloooowly getting more difficult for him to use it.  It is actually helping him the frustration level of math that everyone talks about with AOPS so maybe its helping him get to AOPS.

 

I also anticipate my ds doing something like engineering or some other sciences, so I am very careful about teaching him about math.  He is also a very good writer and author, so maybe he will write Sc-Fi books.  Who knows!

[SophiaH]

OK, I think after looking over TOC's for my different options, I've decided to move into DM 7. Not exactly the direction I was thinking of going, but I love the clear layout and explicit instruction (and lots of white space!). I really worry about the conceptual leaps I hear about SM 6, as I already felt like there were some made in 5 that I found difficult to teach. I think I'll schedule it 4 days a week, and then leave one day for HOE/LOF. Dd is ready to move on from the cartoonish-feel of SM, but as much as she would love to use LOF alone, I think she loses a lot of the math in the storyline--as evidenced by her problems passing the bridges. :001_rolleyes:  Anyway, we'll see how it goes as I already have 6A here if we need it. And you know I'm serious about using DM because I've added it to my signature. :lol:

 

Jousting Armadillos looks cool! I wonder how much review it contains? :D

 

 

[....]

OK, I think after looking over TOC's for my different options, I've decided to move into DM 7. Not exactly the direction I was thinking of going, but I love the clear layout and explicit instruction (and lots of white space!). I really worry about the conceptual leaps I hear about SM 6, as I already felt like there were some made in 5 that I found difficult to teach. I think I'll schedule it 4 days a week, and then leave one day for HOE/LOF. Dd is ready to move on from the cartoonish-feel of SM, but as much as she would love to use LOF alone, I think she loses a lot of the math in the storyline--as evidenced by her problems passing the bridges. :001_rolleyes:  Anyway, we'll see how it goes as I already have 6A here if we need it. And you know I'm serious about using DM because I've added it to my signature. :lol:

 

Jousting Armadillos looks cool! I wonder how much review it contains? :D

 

Are you talking about Singapore's Discovering Mathematics?  That looks like a really neat program!  I wanted my oldest daughter to use that one and we even went to the homeschool store to look at it.  She ended up wanting to try AOPS after seeing the samples.  I have a younger daughter who also uses Singapore, so maybe she'll want to use DM later.

 

I wonder what Jousting Armadillos is!  I'm going to have to search that one. 

[....]

 There is also Real World Algebra for practice.

 

 

Is that one of the Zaccaro books (not sure about the spelling)?  I actually have that on my amazon wish list.  My son needs things that are taught in the context of real-life problems.  The Math Mammoth website also sells something similar and I thought about buying that, too.

 

Another thing about VSLs...they're supposed to be very good with geometry.  So, I was thinking...after we finish Hands-on Equations, we might look for something geometry-related. 

[Julie of KY]

My VSLs like art of Problem Solving and Zaccarro's books. My non VSL is having a tougher time with AoPS.

 

Many of the math problems I let them struggle to find their own method of solving. Once they figure it out, they've got it, but you can't just give them an algorithm. Showing the work is a different problem. I approach math as two pieces - first I let them just solve the problems without showing work. On a few problems, I make them struggle to figure out how to show the steps of the problem. This is much more difficult for both my VSLs. I don't want to make them hate math, by making them show all their work, but I also want them to learn how to show their work.

[SophiaH]

Evanthe,

Yes, I was talking about Discovering Mathematics. I found myself deciding between DM and Jousting Armadillos. I went with DM because in looking at the samples, I really liked that it continued with the bar diagrams that we've done in Singapore (even though dd hates them!). If I can come up with the money, I hope to buy JA as well for the whys and theory and very explicit explanations of things. It's really quite wordy, but I love WHAT it says...

For Geometry, have you seen Understanding Geometry that's mentioned in this thread?

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/474232-critical-thinking-co-understanding-geometry/

It looks fantastic...if I had gone with JA, I was thinking about using it as supplement over two years since JA doesn't cover Geometry.

 

Julie,

My dd assures me that she would not like a book that makes her figure out how to do problems on her own first. :eyeroll: She says this in spite of my thinking that she would actually do really well with this type of learning, since this is how she treats SM anyway...I can't get her to look at the textbook before diving into the WB, ever. Grrr...

[Embassy]

I'm planning on moving my VSL to AOPS when we finish Singapore 5 (within the next year).  We are also spending lots of time on math facts.  I have one of those learning wraps and we are doing this too:  http://www.visual-learners.com/support-files/nbf-6-9-10.pdf  I'm also helping him focus on mental speed using some of Singapore's strategies.  Once a week we spend time doing Zome Geometry (something he really enjoys).

[Nicholas_mom]

Is that one of the Zaccaro books (not sure about the spelling)?

 

 

Yes, this is one of the Zaccaro books.

[Michelle in IL]

Just saw this topic pop back up.

 

We ended up doing a bunch of different things over this past school year.  BTW, I also have a dd 1 year older than ds. They work on the same math level. She is not a VSL.

 

Over last summer we did quite a bit of Hands On Equations. That was a big hit with both kids. I'm so glad we did it. Everything really clicked with them. I had decided to do a mix of Math U See Algebra and AoPS PreAlgebra starting in the Fall. Then I panicked that they were not ready for MUS Algebra so we zoomed thru MUS PreA 3 days week until Christmas while doing AOPS PreA 2 days. Both my kiddos were really struggling with AOPS. They begged to just watch "The Old Guy" as they call Mr. Demme. We started MUS Algebra after Christmas also 3 days with AOPS 2 days. MUS was good for them. They both liked the presentation and were doing well with the MUS. I was getting frustrated because I loved the AoPS and they were NOT loving it. I do admit it is pretty tough and can make things a little more confusing than it needs to be but it just goes so much deeper. That's what I want for my kids. Deep understanding of math.

 

Anywho, I finally decided that maybe we were going back and forth too much. So I dropped the MUS for a while to see how they would do with just the AoPS. Once they started doing it daily, they started to see it as more of a challenge to be conquered instead of dreaded hard math problems. I was so excited. I was researching what to do for the upcoming year for their official Algebra year. I asked them about doing AoPS Algebra and they totally wanted it. So that is the plan for next year. Along with some Patty Paper Geometry on Fridays. How boring and easy to only do one math program. LOL.

 

I feel like they have made some great progress. They have been stretched. My VSL ds is still making careless mistakes though. He tends to work slower and I need to remember to remind him to check his work. We work together on it and my dd and I are usually waiting on him so he doesn't always get the opportunity to double check. He is showing his work more than he used to. We are still working on that. He is all over the page sometimes with his work and will avoid writing it if at all possible. But he is recognizing that it is necessary to do as he advances in math.

 

I'm excited as I look over the AoPS Algebra. We have covered a lot of the material already and so it won't be brand new to them. I'm sure it will go way deeper than what we have done so far. Looking forward to this year.

 

We attended an Engineering Open House at the University of Illinois in Feb. He was able to talk to some students there who stressed how important math is. I wasn't sure if he choose to hear that or not, LOL, but this summer he brought it up and asked if there was something, a math book, that he could read ahead in. He was thinking he would like to be introduced to some new concepts ahead of where he is now so that he will kinda know what's coming and will be familiar already. Woooo Hooooo!!! Interest!!! I bought a used copy of Barron's Algebra The Easy Way which is set up in a story format. Sounded cool. He was enjoying it. I had to laugh when he took it to a sleepover. Geek! I love it! Not sure how far he got. Gotta check with him.

 

So that's our story. :)

 

 

[SophiaH]

Thanks, Michelle, for popping back in and giving us an update! It's really helpful to hear about how your year went on the backside of it. I hope we have a similar report in a year! :)

It sounds like everything is going great...Congrats!