Asynchrony, Intensity and Discipline

[ApronMama]

Does asynchrony and emotional intensity affect how you discipline your gifted child? What tools work or don't work?

 

Dealing with DS8 whose intensity leads to some big anger issues when I discipline him. He gets very manipulative, saying he wants to hurt himself, doesn't deserve to live with us, etc. I start to worry if there are some major emotional issues going on, but he will later admit he was using those words to try to get my attention about how he is feeling. Most of the time, a very happy go lucky, gentle kid until we follow through on a consequence. If we use a rewards system, he tends to manipulate that too.

 

He doesn't blow up very often, but when he does, its pretty big. I take it very seriously, until my husband points out that ds is being manipulative. :glare: Hard to find the balance between trying to understand and accommodate the intense emotions he feels and knowing when he is using those emotions to get out of consequences for his actions.

 

Any advice? What works for you?

[Runningmom80]

Yes, absolutely.

 

Disclaimer: My son is younger than yours, so I obviously have less experience than you do, so take my ramblings with a grain of salt.;)

 

DS 5 is very intense, and has humongous meltdowns when things don't go his way. He is not as dramatic (I don't mean that in a negative way, I couldn't think of another descriptor.) as your son, but he is pulling the "I hate you," bit now. :(

 

Have you read any of the books available about intense children? That may be a place to start.

 

 

I've had to learn how to draw up every last sliver of patience I can at times. (And unfortunately I'm not always successful.)

We have learned a lot from the Positive Discipline books. I know that kind of thing isn't everyone's (or most people's) cup of tea, but it works for us and our parenting style.

 

 

Hang in there.

[LittleIzumi]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I've only really dealt with the "I hate you!" but that just got essentially a nil response--a calm and quiet, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I still love you, even if you are _______." And then move on. Luckily that's been enough so far so make saying those sorts of things boring and dd stopped.

[Embassy]

I try to separate the feelings from the actions. I let my kids know that it is okay to feel strongly, but it is not okay to use words that hurt or to do something else that will hurt others. If he is using manipulative words to help you understand how he is feeling perhaps you can find a way to acknowledge his feelings during his anger (i.e. "I realize you are very angry. Please go to your room and come down when you are ready to talk about this without yelling.")

 

I went through this book with one child this past year and it has some great strategies for learning how to control anger.

 

I try to understand the intense feelings - sometimes it feels like the world has come to an end several times each day with these kiddos. I want them to accept that intensity as part of who they are. But they have to also learn how to control their actions. Because my kid feels strongly doesn't mean he has the right to hurt others. Intensity can be a positive thing - I just have to help channel it toward good actions.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Wehomeschool

[deacongirl]

I would probably seek the help of a professional experienced with gifted kids if my kid were making statements like that. And even though you said he feels manipulated by rewards systems, I would still check out the book Transforming the Difficult Child. I know people with similar issues who found it extremely helpful.

[poetic license]

Dawn Huebner's books linked in the last post are great; they use common cognitive-behavioral therapy tools but it's broken down into kid-friendly language.

 

I've found that standard disciplinary techniques simply don't work with my intense child. And no, I'm not being an "easy mom" or whatever, these techniques seem to backfire terribly.

 

Then I came across this book which seemed to explain why: Transforming the Difficult Child: the Nurtured Heart Approach

 

It has to do with the fact that when we come down with strict consequences with these kids, we invest a lot of emotional energy in them at the very moment when they are acting out--and that's what they want. They want our emotional energy most of all, and we just give it to them when they act inappropriately, driving them to act even worse to get more emotional attention from us. They get into a lot of detail about how to drive more emotional energy to their positive behaviors first, etc. They do include some consequences but it's part of this whole package/plan that stresses focusing on the positive.

 

Hope this helps, I certainly feel some of your pain. Mine is smaller and the issues less intense but it is hard when you feel like you can't really use any disciplinary tools.

[boscopup]

I've definitely found that staying calm helps immensely. In fact, we've recently discovered that sending DS2 to the corner is the best punishment for him (and I'm NOT a gentle discipline type of person). It's calm, it gets him out of the situation, and it quiets him down (he's not allowed to make noise in the corner). Then when he's done, everything is fine.

 

Now the problem I have had with the corner is that he's apparently counting the seconds. I said to stand in the corner for 2 minutes one time, looked at my computer clock when I said it, then let him go when my clock read 2 minutes later. Of course, the clock had been somewhere in the middle of that minute. DS2 says, "But it hasn't been 2 minutes yet!" :lol: He was truly upset!

 

I'm also trying to have calm discussions about how we treat our brothers. Lately, he's been pestering them so much that they don't want to be around him sometimes. At night, they like to switch beds and sleep in the same bed (they share a room), but DS2 will ask one of the brothers to sleep with him and they say no. They don't like that he bugs them before they all go to sleep. It's really sad, so I've been trying to point out how people love being around him when he's being sweet like he really is. We had a talk like this just the other day after he had been told to give a car to his baby brother and he had shoved it into his brother's chest, hurting him, laughing the whole time. I sent him to bed, then came up after a few minutes and talked about what he'd done and how he should have handed the car to his brother (offering the car and letting his brother take it from his hand). After that talk, he decided - on his own - to get another car and take it to his brother. He did it exactly like we'd talked about, and then he and I were in the kitchen and he had such a warm smile on his face when he talked about how his brother could play with the car he gave him. I told him that that happy feeling was what we feel when we do good things for other people. It was seriously the best smile I've seen on him!

 

So yeah, staying calm is a huge thing. If I need to get his attention, I physically hold onto him to get his attention, and then we can talk calmly. We still sometimes have an issue with the fact that DS2 doesn't always understand what I'm talking about and doesn't necessarily understand consequences (especially delayed consequences), but we're getting better.

[Barbara H]

http://www.amazon.com/A-Parents-Guide-Gifted-Children/dp/0910707529/ref=pd_sim_b_3/190-9864933-5318041 I've found this book to be very helpful at understanding how giftedness, intensity and discipline all fit together.

[Mandy in TN]

I wrote a giant post and then decided that I had shared too much personal information about my sons. However, I agree with everyone who has said not to feed your son’s behavior with emotion of your own and wanted to add that this includes letting him see that he has upset you.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I've only really dealt with the "I hate you!" but that just got essentially a nil response--a calm and quiet, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I still love you, even if you are _______." And then move on. Luckily that's been enough so far so make saying those sorts of things boring and dd stopped.

This is a good response and definitely one I used.

 

I've definitely found that staying calm helps immensely. In fact, we've recently discovered that sending DS2 to the corner is the best punishment for him (and I'm NOT a gentle discipline type of person). It's calm, it gets him out of the situation, and it quiets him down (he's not allowed to make noise in the corner). Then when he's done, everything is fine.

Instead of a corner, I would take ds to his room where I would tell him that anger was a valid emotion, but that it is not appropriate to vomit that emotion all over everyone else. I typically didn't set a time, but would tell ds that he could join the rest of us when he felt that he was back in control.

 

Not during a meltdown but when he was calm, I repeatedly encouraged him to use his words to explain himself and when that failed to remove himself from situation. We talked a lot about emotions and appropriate behavior.

 

OTOH- a child's expression of anger or frustration can be different from a child's expressing belittlement or the desire to harm himself. I have no experience working in mental health. If you are not 100% confident that he is just being manipulative, go with your gut and seek outside help.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[LittleIzumi]

Instead of a corner, I would take ds to his room where I would tell him that anger was a valid emotion, but that it is not appropriate to vomit that emotion all over everyone else. I typically didn't set a time, but would tell ds that he could join the rest of us when he felt that he was back in control.

 

Not during a meltdown but when he was calm, I repeatedly encouraged him to use his words to explain himself and when that failed to remove himself from situation. We talked a lot about emotions and appropriate behavior.

 

We did that, too--you are allowed to cry and yell but you have to do it in your room. You can come out whenever you are calm. The Drama spent a lot of time in there (maybe the name gave it away :lol:) but she could come out whenever she was calm, and as she matured she calmed faster and faster. Now she almost never needs to be alone to calm down, and when she does she's calm inside of 10 minutes. MUCH better!

Edited May 23, 2012 by LittleIzumi

[shann]

My Dd is also intensely emotional and the usual discipline of going to her room or taking a time out has never worked, not a single time. She has to talk it out and she has to get all her tears out. It can be exhausting but I am trying to learn just let the tears come, even if it does not seems like something worth crying about.

Sometimes she can bounce back very quickly and once she has her tears out she can be distracted and move on. Other times we have to keep talking about it for days :svengo:

Lately I am really trying to acknowledge her feelings but show her that there is a difference between feelings and behavior. Our current crisis is coping with being wrong and how flipping out every time she is wrong is not her "personality" it is a behavior that can be changed. :banghead:

Anyway, I sympathize with you!

[Greenmama2]

My Dd is also intensely emotional and the usual discipline of going to her room or taking a time out has never worked, not a single time.!

:iagree: My intense child is also quite anxious and the concept of time-out triggers her separation anxiety which is not in the slightest bit helpful in the middle of a meltdown.

Wish I had more advice. I remind myself to :chillpill: and try to keep her brain busy - it helps with keeping her calm.

[jar7709]

Dealing with DS8 whose intensity leads to some big anger issues when I discipline him. He gets very manipulative, saying he wants to hurt himself, doesn't deserve to live with us, etc. I start to worry if there are some major emotional issues going on, but he will later admit he was using those words to try to get my attention about how he is feeling.

 

:grouphug:

 

My 7.5 yo DS does this, can say things like "I'm a terrible person!" "Maybe you'd be better off without me" "I'm the worst at everything!" And when he's really worked up (less often now than it used to be, thankfully) he'll destroy some favorite things like Lego models he is proud of, which of course makes him feel worse and the downward spiral continues. Sitting in a "time out" corner in a public area of the house made it worse, I think because he found it humiliating. What has actually helped the most, is the approach others recommended--go to your room to let it out, take the time you need to calm down, and come on out again when you're ready.

 

I've found I need to treat DS much more like I'd treat an upset adult than most people do with their kids--I mean, if DH is mad or upset about something, I don't stick him in the corner with an egg timer, I give him space to feel what he needs to feel, while at the same time letting him know I am around for talk and hugs when he needs it. Just matter-of-fact, mutual respect. YMMV of course.

[boscopup]

Going to his room doesn't work as well for DS2 because he doesn't calm down. He'll actually be MORE destructive, banging on the walls, etc. He calms down more easily in the corner close by. Sending him away from us is more of a punishment, so I think that's why the room thing doesn't work as well for him. Of course, he also doesn't think like an adult... at all. He is an impulsive child that doesn't understand consequences very well. Perhaps the room thing works for some of the kids here because they are more mature in their thinking? I don't know. My oldest can be sent to another room to cool off, and that works very well for him. He's way more mature though.

[3Blessings]

I try to separate the feelings from the actions. I let my kids know that it is okay to feel strongly, but it is not okay to use words that hurt or to do something else that will hurt others. If he is using manipulative words to help you understand how he is feeling perhaps you can find a way to acknowledge his feelings during his anger (i.e. "I realize you are very angry. Please go to your room and come down when you are ready to talk about this without yelling.")

 

I went through this book with one child this past year and it has some great strategies for learning how to control anger.

 

I try to understand the intense feelings - sometimes it feels like the world has come to an end several times each day with these kiddos. I want them to accept that intensity as part of who they are. But they have to also learn how to control their actions. Because my kid feels strongly doesn't mean he has the right to hurt others. Intensity can be a positive thing - I just have to help channel it toward good actions.

 

:iagree:with the bolded. Dd7 has actually gotten better, but there was a time that I considered taping myself saying, "It is ok to be angry but it's not ok to treat me with disrespect." We do a lot of work with boundaries and scripture in our house. We talk about how AND why we should treat other people a certain way. We also talk about how our family is a community and we work together in that. I always recommend a book by Cloud/Thompson- Boundaries with Kids.

 

We also try to find their "currency", kwim? What do they value- toys? time with you? time with friends? Use that in discipline as you see fit.

 

HTH!

[imagine.more]

 

Instead of a corner, I would take ds to his room where I would tell him that anger was a valid emotion, but that it is not appropriate to vomit that emotion all over everyone else. I typically didn't set a time, but would tell ds that he could join the rest of us when he felt that he was back in control.

 

Not during a meltdown but when he was calm, I repeatedly encouraged him to use his words to explain himself and when that failed to remove himself from situation. We talked a lot about emotions and appropriate behavior.

 

 

 

We do this too and in the corner nearby typically due to DS's age and I've just found he calms down faster when he's close by but slightly removed from the action. Time-outs are always "until you are calm and ready to join us again/apologize" not ever for 3 minutes or 10 minutes or anything. Sometimes he is calm in 1 minute, other times it has taken him up to 40 minutes to feel ready to join the family and apologize. But he always always comes back with a heart-change for sure. Then we talk about it, either briefly or in depth, but I never even try to reason with him during his meltdowns. Like above, if I can catch him before he's saying mean things then I'll do a gentle reminder and we'll talk about how he should handle it, but even that is something only I can do in the moment, DH or anyone else couldn't quite accomplish it because they can't recognize his about-to-blow signs. And I try to stay very very very calm. Don't always succeed of course, lol! but I do try and it goes better when I am calm.

 

But yeah, lots of emphasis on anger being okay but that disrespect is not okay no matter how angry you are. Basically I figure I'm teaching him the rules of adult life. If I'm angry with someone I'll remain respectful and if I feel I can't I remove myself from the situation by ending the conversation, going to another room, leaving, etc. until I am calm and ready to either let the issue go or address it respectfully. Our time-outs in this case are an enforced removal from the situation because kids don't always have the maturity to remove themselves to calm down yet.

 

The book Good and Angry: Exchanging Frustration for Character in You and Your Kids has been immensely helpful to me. It even gives good scripted dialogues for getting you started on how to respond to certain behaviors that are off the wall or just really hurtful/worrying like the kind of stuff your son has been saying.