need different alg program

[Changed]

Dd12 is on lesson 23 of TT algebra 1 and doesn't seem to be grasping some of the concepts. Can anyone recommend something that we can use to supplement with more problems, or even a textbook we could use instead and then supplement with TT?

 

I have been looking into Jacobs or Foersters (sp?), but if she can't grasp TT, does that mean those books would be too hard? Or do you think maybe a different method of teaching would help her?

[SilverMoon]

Has she always used TT?

 

If you just want some extra practice, check out the Keys To books. They're inexpensive, consumable workbooks. Also, Khan Academy practice with videos is a great resource (online, free).

[Changed]

Has she always used TT?

 

If you just want some extra practice, check out the Keys To books. They're inexpensive, consumable workbooks. Also, Khan Academy practice with videos is a great resource (online, free).

 

This is her first year with it. She was doing pre-alg in ps this yr when I pulled her out. I've tried using Khan, but I'm never consistent with finding the type of problems she's working on. I'd really just like a book to open up and use.

 

I'm not sure if she just needs more problems, or if she needs a different teaching method. Does the Key To books actually teach the concepts, or just gave problems?

[AngieW in Texas]

The programs I've seen recommended for kids who struggle are Teaching Textbooks, Key to Algebra, MUS Algebra I, and Math Relief. I have used the Key to and MUS. My math struggler doesn't want anything to do with computer-based programs for math and doesn't want videos either. She wants me to teach her directly.

 

Key to Algebra is a good beginning algebra program. My dd made it through the first booklet just fine, but crashed and burned in the second booklet. Part of the problem she had with Key to was with the layout. She really needs a program that looks clean, has black print on white paper, lots of white space, clean fonts, and plenty or room to work the problems right in the book. MUS fits those parameters, but Key to doesn't.

 

My dd won't do the MUS videos. I just teach her myself using the teacher book. There's plenty of room in the student book for her to do her work on the page. The problems are not super difficult or complicated, but even so, they are right at the edge of what she can do. Not all kids are going to be math super-stars.

 

I figure we'll do MUS all through high school and then in college, she can start with College Algebra and repeat the material in more depth.

[SilverMoon]

They do include instructions, but I'm not sure how thorough they are at the algebra level. They're a supplement only. You can see samples at RR.

 

Did you use TT's placement test? If she's hitting walls, maybe she needs time to polish her arithmetic foundation with more prealg. I don't know how clear TT's teaching is, so take that one with some salt.

 

If you want a different course, we've been really happy with Lial's books. If you look for an edition that's not the most current one they're pretty inexpensive on Amazon. I have kids using Lial's BCM and prealgebra, and one is heading into Introductory Algebra (alg 1) pretty soon (the stronger math student is going into Foerster's).

[Changed]

The programs I've seen recommended for kids who struggle are Teaching Textbooks, Key to Algebra, MUS Algebra I, and Math Relief. I have used the Key to and MUS. My math struggler doesn't want anything to do with computer-based programs for math and doesn't want videos either. She wants me to teach her directly.

 

Key to Algebra is a good beginning algebra program. My dd made it through the first booklet just fine, but crashed and burned in the second booklet. Part of the problem she had with Key to was with the layout. She really needs a program that looks clean, has black print on white paper, lots of white space, clean fonts, and plenty or room to work the problems right in the book. MUS fits those parameters, but Key to doesn't.

 

My dd won't do the MUS videos. I just teach her myself using the teacher book. There's plenty of room in the student book for her to do her work on the page. The problems are not super difficult or complicated, but even so, they are right at the edge of what she can do. Not all kids are going to be math super-stars.

 

I figure we'll do MUS all through high school and then in college, she can start with College Algebra and repeat the material in more depth.

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences! I know all kids aren't destined to be great at math, but she is 100% (at least right now) that she wants to major in chemistry...so she NEEDS to have a strong foundation in math, yk? I will check out the Key To books.

 

They do include instructions, but I'm not sure how thorough they are at the algebra level. They're a supplement only. You can see samples at RR.

 

Did you use TT's placement test? If she's hitting walls, maybe she needs time to polish her arithmetic foundation with more prealg. I don't know how clear TT's teaching is, so take that one with some salt.

 

If you want a different course, we've been really happy with Lial's books. If you look for an edition that's not the most current one they're pretty inexpensive on Amazon. I have kids using Lial's BCM and prealgebra, and one is heading into Introductory Algebra (alg 1) pretty soon (the stronger math student is going into Foerster's).

 

She passed the prealgebra placement for TT, so we put her in algebra 1. I think I am really looking for something different, though. The computer teaching just isn't cutting it. I'll check out Lial's.

[cschnee]

How about Hands on Equations?

[AngieW in Texas]

At least chemistry doesn't require as much math background as physics does. One thing that might help is using math in the context of chemistry.

 

You have several choices right now.

 

She is only 12yo, so doing another prealgebra year is a good option. I did that with my dd last year. The problem with that year was that my dd was sick to death of fractions/decimals/percents and despite mastering them short-term, she would lose everything she had learned. She worked through all but the last books in those three Key to series. She did really well up to that point. Then with the last book in each series, she drew a total blank and had completely lost almost everything that came before.

 

We tried working on fractions/decimals/percents with Math Mammoth, drill sheets, Singapore, prealgebra workbooks from the bookstore, and MUS Prealgebra. In every case, she'd get the concepts and be moving along swimmingly and then completely forget everything that she'd learned.

 

Spending another year covering the exact same material with yet another program really wasn't an option. That's why we moved on to algebra this year.

 

MUS Algebra I seems to be working for her right now. The review sheets give her some coverage of fractions/decimals/percents without killing her spirit and she is happy to finally be making progress in math again.

 

She's going to do Hewitt's Conceptual Physics next year. It doesn't have much math, but it does have a little, so it will use some of her basic algebra concepts. The next year, she'll do a regular chemistry course and that will use more algebra and keep it in practice while she is taking geometry.

[wapiti]

If you pulled her out of school while she was doing prealgebra, then I'd resume another prealgebra program if you move away from TT (placement varies by program, and placement in TT's alg 1 would not necessarily indicate readiness for another alg 1 program). There are lots of good options. I'd choose a text and then figure out which chapters/topics she already knows, and for those I'd skip the chapter and do the chapter review (unless there were some question about how solid she was on the particular chapter).

Edited April 1, 2012 by wapiti

[Corraleno]

She passed the prealgebra placement for TT, so we put her in algebra 1. I think I am really looking for something different, though. The computer teaching just isn't cutting it. I'll check out Lial's.

If she passed the Prealgebra placement test, that means she tested into Prealgebra, not out of Prealgebra. The placement tests determine whether the student is ready for that level, not whether they're capable of skipping that level. The first part of TT Algebra is a review of Prealgebra concepts, and since she's already struggling and she's only on lesson 23, IMO that's another indicator that she's not ready for Algebra. I'd definitely back her up into Prelagebra, either with TT or another program like Lial's.

 

Jackie

[Changed]

Thank you for the responses. Now I have even more to consider. :001_huh:

 

I used the wrong wording about the placement test...she took the algebra 1 test and got enough problems right so that she was supposed to go into alg 1.

eta: Now that I think about it some more, in one half of the placement test she scored one more right than was necessary to "pass", and on the other section she scored one point "less". So my dh told me to put her in alg 1.

 

I went to the bookstore today and found a book that helped me tremendously to understand the concepts she's been learning, so I'm ordering it from Amazon for me. I think the "computer" teaching just isn't working for her (or me). We're going to look over some textbooks to see which one fits her learning style and go from there. Oh, and you all have convinced me to go with a pre-algebra book, although she feels like I'm making her go backwards. I keep trying to assure her that she's only in the 6th grade!

Edited April 1, 2012 by vcoots

[Corraleno]

Oh, and you all have convinced me to go with a pre-algebra book, although she feels like I'm making her go backwards. I keep trying to assure her that she's only in the 6th grade!

Many people here use Lial's Basic College Math for prealgebra; you can pick up used copies very cheaply. Maybe she'd feel better about using a text that says "college" on the front. ;)

 

Jackie

[Changed]

Many people here use Lial's Basic College Math for prealgebra; you can pick up used copies very cheaply. Maybe she'd feel better about using a text that says "college" on the front. ;)

 

Jackie

 

Ooh, thank you! That will make all the dfference to her! I will try to find it for her.

[Changed]

If we use Lial's BCM to finish this year, can we skip prealgebra and go straight to alg 1 next year? Or will we still need the prealgebra book?

[txhomemom]

Just a thought, but maybe you just need to slow down with what material you are covering in TT to let it sink in for a while. Maybe you could find something to supplement it on the side to help her learn the concepts she is struggling with using extra worksheets, videos, games, etc. I have used the Key to books with my dd. Another option maybe consider a different type of curriculum like Life of Fred. Derek Owens has free videos on prealgebra that might help: Prealgebra. There are also Thinkwell math videos.

 

Here is a math curriculum that I am thinking about using for my dd for algebra because it is in more of a workbook format: Algebra A Fresh Approach

 

A lot of times when we would struggle with curriculum I wanted to jump ship, but sometimes my dd just took a little longer to understand a concept and that is okay. I probably changed curriculum more than I really needed to.

[pie]

I would also like to know if a child would go directly into algebra from Lial's BCM, or would she go into pre-algebra?

I have a 12 yr old dd that seems to learn math and then completely forget it too. It is aggravating both of us lol

[SilverMoon]

Unless the student needs even more practice before algebra, a child can go directly from BCM to algebra 1. I have a child using BCM currently, and one using Lial's prealgebra. Polar opposite children. They'll both continue into algebra 1 when they're finished (one with Lial's, the other with Foerster's).

[EKS]

I agree with the poster that said that Lial's BCM might be a good place to start. However, I suggest that you *not* just hand her the book and tell her to go for it. Since it is likely that she already knows a good deal of what's in the book, I'd be selective about where you spend you time.

 

This is how I used the Lial Algebra II book (which has the same format as BCM) when I was in a similar situation with my son. The book gives example problems in the text. There will be a problem that is solved in the body of the text and then a few practice problems in the margins that are similar. I would write down the first practice problem on a small whiteboard and tell my son to solve it. If he could solve it with no problems whatsoever, we would move on to the next problem type and do the same thing. If he had a minor difficulty solving it, I would give him another problem of the same type, and if he could solve it, we would move on. If he couldn't solve it at all, *I* would show him how to solve it, based on the instruction in the book, and then give him a few more of the same type from the margin. Then we would move on to the next type of problem.

 

As for assigning problem sets, the Lial books have *a lot* of problems. And the problems are generally keyed by section number. This is great because if your child needs to practice something, you have the resources to do it and you won't need to supplement with problems from someplace else. But it can also feel overwhelming to the student. As we went through the book, anyplace where my son was able to do the practice problem with zero difficulty (meaning fluently with no hesitation and no mistakes, even ones he corrected himself), I wouldn't assign any problems (or at most, I'd give him one, usually the last one in the set which was generally more difficult). If he had a little bit of difficulty, I'd give a few. If he actually needed me to explain how to do the problem, I'd give him all of the odds for that section. Then there were frequently problems that integrated the concepts, and I would give him the odds of those also. They were usually at the end of the problem set.

 

Then I would have him do the practice test at the end of each chapter and then, since I bought the test book, I'd give him a test from that which I graded. You can also give the review problems and give the practice test in the book as the test.

 

The year we did this was by far the best year of math we ever had. I think our success was due to a combination of focusing on what needed attention and having my son an active participant in the lessons. It wasn't me presenting a bunch of stuff and then leaving, telling him to do a problem set on my way out, and it wasn't a computer program or a video lecturer doing the same thing. When I did show him what to do, it was in the context of a problem that he had already tried to do, so he was invested in the solution, and then he knew he had to perform immediately on the next problem. If he didn't understand something, I could usually catch it right away, not when I graded the problem set at some later point, after he had done 20 problems wrong.

 

I did have to work ahead of him in the book. So the weekend before, I would look through the lessons for that week and if there was something I didn't remember how to do, or if the book was presenting it in a way that I didn't understand, I would work that out before sitting down to do a lesson. With BCM, this will likely be less of a problem.

[Changed]

Thank you for this, eks!!

 

I have reviewed all the suggestions made and am going with Lial's, just not sure if we're picking bcm or prealg. I'm glad they have plenty of problems in case we need them, but I will definitely be sitting with dd and helping her work through the book. She just doesn't retain the info as well when watching the computer screen. I'm also thinking of hiring a tutor, maybe long-term, maybe just to get her up and running until I can get ahead in my studying to be able to "teach" her.

 

 

 

I agree with the poster that said that Lial's BCM might be a good place to start. However, I suggest that you *not* just hand her the book and tell her to go for it. Since it is likely that she already knows a good deal of what's in the book, I'd be selective about where you spend you time.

 

This is how I used the Lial Algebra II book (which has the same format as BCM) when I was in a similar situation with my son. The book gives example problems in the text. There will be a problem that is solved in the body of the text and then a few practice problems in the margins that are similar. I would write down the first practice problem on a small whiteboard and tell my son to solve it. If he could solve it with no problems whatsoever, we would move on to the next problem type and do the same thing. If he had a minor difficulty solving it, I would give him another problem of the same type, and if he could solve it, we would move on. If he couldn't solve it at all, *I* would show him how to solve it, based on the instruction in the book, and then give him a few more of the same type from the margin. Then we would move on to the next type of problem.

 

As for assigning problem sets, the Lial books have *a lot* of problems. And the problems are generally keyed by section number. This is great because if your child needs to practice something, you have the resources to do it and you won't need to supplement with problems from someplace else. But it can also feel overwhelming to the student. As we went through the book, anyplace where my son was able to do the practice problem with zero difficulty (meaning fluently with no hesitation and no mistakes, even ones he corrected himself), I wouldn't assign any problems (or at most, I'd give him one, usually the last one in the set which was generally more difficult). If he had a little bit of difficulty, I'd give a few. If he actually needed me to explain how to do the problem, I'd give him all of the odds for that section. Then there were frequently problems that integrated the concepts, and I would give him the odds of those also. They were usually at the end of the problem set.

 

Then I would have him do the practice test at the end of each chapter and then, since I bought the test book, I'd give him a test from that which I graded. You can also give the review problems and give the practice test in the book as the test.

 

The year we did this was by far the best year of math we ever had. I think our success was due to a combination of focusing on what needed attention and having my son an active participant in the lessons. It wasn't me presenting a bunch of stuff and then leaving, telling him to do a problem set on my way out, and it wasn't a computer program or a video lecturer doing the same thing. When I did show him what to do, it was in the context of a problem that he had already tried to do, so he was invested in the solution, and then he knew he had to perform immediately on the next problem. If he didn't understand something, I could usually catch it right away, not when I graded the problem set at some later point, after he had done 20 problems wrong.

 

I did have to work ahead of him in the book. So the weekend before, I would look through the lessons for that week and if there was something I didn't remember how to do, or if the book was presenting it in a way that I didn't understand, I would work that out before sitting down to do a lesson. With BCM, this will likely be less of a problem.

[SilverMoon]

Here's an old thread that lists the TOC for Lial's BCM and prealgebra, and has Amazon links.

[Changed]

Unless the student needs even more practice before algebra, a child can go directly from BCM to algebra 1. I have a child using BCM currently, and one using Lial's prealgebra. Polar opposite children. They'll both continue into algebra 1 when they're finished (one with Lial's, the other with Foerster's).

 

This is good to know. Thanks!

 

Eta: off to check out the old thread you linked...

[Corraleno]

If we use Lial's BCM to finish this year, can we skip prealgebra and go straight to alg 1 next year? Or will we still need the prealgebra book?

There should be no problem going from Lial's BCM to TT Algebra I. Lial's Prealgebra has less review of basic math concepts and covers more in terms of early algebra topics, but then TT Algebra I also covers a lot of the same prealgebra material. Since she's coming from PS and you don't really know how firm her grasp is of the foundational math concepts, and since TT is a very gentle program that starts with lots of review anyway, I'd be inclined more towards BCM.

 

Jackie

[PeterPan]

Thank you for the responses. Now I have even more to consider. :001_huh:

 

I used the wrong wording about the placement test...she took the algebra 1 test and got enough problems right so that she was supposed to go into alg 1.

eta: Now that I think about it some more, in one half of the placement test she scored one more right than was necessary to "pass", and on the other section she scored one point "less". So my dh told me to put her in alg 1.

 

I went to the bookstore today and found a book that helped me tremendously to understand the concepts she's been learning, so I'm ordering it from Amazon for me. I think the "computer" teaching just isn't working for her (or me). We're going to look over some textbooks to see which one fits her learning style and go from there. Oh, and you all have convinced me to go with a pre-algebra book, although she feels like I'm making her go backwards. I keep trying to assure her that she's only in the 6th grade!

 

*I* wouldn't put a young child into algebra 1 in a new curriculum in a new environment. That's a lot of changes and you went with the stretch level. You should have put her in the pre-algebra. Does she like the *methodology* of the TT? My dd is doing the TT pre-algebra, and it's ADORABLE. We've done Lial's, and it's not even close to being so enjoyable. AND you'd have to teach Lial's. If she *likes* the TT methodology but not the material, get the pre-algebra. It sounds like it will be a better fit. I would never have gone up a level when she was that borderline, that young, and going through a lot of changes in life.

 

Men don't know diddley about this stuff. You're going to have to watch her and figure out for yourself. Sometimes an occasional man is observant, but in general they're pragmatic problem-solvers and looking at the $$. He figured she was on the line and he could get out of paying for a pre-algebra text. He doesn't know anything about education to have an opinion on that side of it. You're watching her, so you have to do the right thing and back her up. Sure you do Keys to or whatever you want, but it's all backing up to repeat pre-algebra. If it's easy for her, she'll just go through the material faster. Backing up is GOOD in this case and wise. If you had posted those scores, it's what we would have told you to do.

 

But I'll say it again. If she likes TT (the fun characters, the voices, the short lessons, the interactiveness of it, the independence), DON'T mess that up, just back up to the pre-algebra.