Can I make TOG work, or should I switch?

[school4princesses]

Hello,

 

I have used TOG for four years. I love it! My DDs, however, not as much. As my eldest moved into D level a year and a half ago, I have heard nothing but complaints about how she can't find the answers in the reading. In order to help my second DD get transitioned to D level, I decided to enroll my first DD in the LLC for the year, which keeps us committed to a tight schedule. Now my second DD has moved up to D level and I'm hearing the same thing from her regarding not finding answers. (Yes - I spent much time working with them in the beginning, however both seem to prefer to do things their own way.) Both my DDs are good readers, my second in particular who has somewhat of a photographic memory - with those things that mean something to her. Of course, much of what she reads for school means nothing to her. We have had a very rough year with my eldest DD, mostly because of character issues that seem to be getting worse with time rather than better. Her grades have taken a nose dive this year in every subject, and we are looking at repeating 7th grade. Part of my reason for wanting to do TOG was to have everyone learning together at their level. At this point, however, there doesn't seem to be any learning going on and we have to rush on to the next week without understanding. There isn't any learning together, and hardly any learning at all. I have been planning to add the 3rd DD into our TOG next year. I know that it is said all the time that TOG doesn't work for all families. How do I know whether it will work with mine? My eldest DD is lazy. My second DD has focus and sensory issues. My third DD most likely has sensory issues as well. I want so badly to make this work for us. But with all we have going against us right now, I just don't see how that can work. I'm wondering if we need to switch to something else. Suggestions?

 

Blessings,

[Joy at Home]

:grouphug: Sorry you're having a hard time. I know the feeling of loving a curriculum but feeling like it's not clicking with the kids. How did dd manage with LLC? I know dd had trouble as well answering the questions, to the point where I felt she was totally missing the big picture because she was hyperfocused on giving the "right answer". I ended up bagging the questions and just talking to her about them, but then I thought she was getting too lazy just listening to me lecture.

 

With character issues you are referring to I think I might do what's easiest for dd and save yourself headache while you tend to her heart and work on what issues you see in character.

 

I'm not sure what options to suggest. Have you considered history using WTM's approach? What grade is she?

 

I guess my other thought would be that you could try to adjust your requirements with TOG for a while, maybe not having them answer all the questions, but picking one or two (that you know is in the reading) and go a little deeper. If you are preparing and reading the teachers notes, you can cover the gaps during discussion time.

 

Good luck. I know it's frustrating.

 

Lisa

[melmichigan]

Are you using the newest version of Redesigned? I believe the updates they have made have brought the questions more in line with the reading. Otherwise I would do as already suggested, pick a few select questions that you think are most important and you are sure are covered and then just touch on the others during discussion. I give my DD in Dialetic the questions listed with the ones I want answered marked with a star, the others are for her to watch out for when reading so she can be prepared for discussion. (I put together workbooks for them.) Then she isn't so focused on the questions that she misses out on what she is reading. It can take a while for a child to be able to read multiple sources and combine that information.

[school4princesses]

How did dd manage with LLC? She did great the first unit, but that was because our church spent the whole last year focusing on Genesis 1-11. Turns out she did very little reading and was relying on what her Sunday School class had learned. However, from the second unit on, she has taken a slow nose dive. I learned that her teacher was giving her better grades than she deserved because she assumed there may have been extenuating circumstances. When the teacher learned otherwise, she sent her an email advising her of how best to prepare, including preparing in writing all of the AQ/TQ's, because they would all be discussed in class. Needless to say, she is not doing it this way, and her grades have since plummeted.

 

What grade is she? She is in 7th grade, however since she has failed most of her classes this year (I really only count points in about four classes that allow for that type of a grade - the rest I guess I have a grade in my head based on attitude and effort,) the plan is to have her essentially repeat 7th grade. This was a wasted year as far as I'm concerned.

 

As for my other DD who is finishing up 5th grade, she has some learning issues due to ADD and SPD. I am hoping that we can afford going to Learning RX with her and get some of her issues straightened out. Her issues this year in all subjects are, I believe, due to this focusing problem. She is, however, learning and improving this year. Her problems are only with her TOG work.

 

My thoughts right now are that these two girls are not suited, at least for now, for the type of work TOG requires. It isn't a matter of moving them back to UG either, because they have read all of those books already and would be bored to death. Because of the LLC schedule, we are forced to keep to a tight schedule. Without the LLC, we would drag too slowly if we were to go only as fast as the weakest link allowed. I own all four year plans in DE form. I am invested in TOG. However, if it is not going to work for my girls, if it is only going to bring contention and continue to foster such bad attitudes in my girls (and by extension me,) then perhaps it is best we set it aside. Even if for only a few years and then come back to it.

[5sons]

I'm sorry your having these issues! I understand your love for TOG!

 

For us it just became too much. I have boys ;) and they are more math science oriented. They are ahead in these areas, and enjoy spending lots of time with these subjects. I had a D, UG, and LG boy. Once we got to the D level it became too much. The books were great, but trying to pull the info required to answer the questions took too much time. I finally gave up the questions and started having them narrate what they read. I focused on what they got out of what they read to try to make it more fun to just learn. If we started a book and they didn't like it I just dropped it. I also started more Bible framework study.

 

By the time we had finished one 4 yr cycle I was done. It was taking too much time, and our focus had changed. I had many of the books for all levels for all years and the print versions. I sold it all.

 

All this to say, if the curriculum isn't working for you drop it or cut way back. It will be ok also if you want to take a break for a year as well. Do you think it might help if your oldest dd did more personal Bible study, and maybe a history study that interests her? Like the history of art or the history of science or a particular animal study? Maybe if she had a choice to focus on what her interests are she might enjoy and work harder? I'm sure working on her attitude issues is important and should be a priority as well. (Which I know you said you are working through;))

 

IMHO switch if you think you need to, or just take a break. :D

 

I hope this helps some in your journey. Let us know what you decide.

 

 

Kristen

[ktgrok]

As for my other DD who is finishing up 5th grade, she has some learning issues due to ADD and SPD. I am hoping that we can afford going to Learning RX with her and get some of her issues straightened out. Her issues this year in all subjects are, I believe, due to this focusing problem. She is, however, learning and improving this year. Her problems are only with her TOG work.[/font][/i]

 

My thoughts right now are that these two girls are not suited, at least for now, for the type of work TOG requires. It isn't a matter of moving them back to UG either, because they have read all of those books already and would be bored to death. Because of the LLC schedule, we are forced to keep to a tight schedule. Without the LLC, we would drag too slowly if we were to go only as fast as the weakest link allowed. I own all four year plans in DE form. I am invested in TOG. However, if it is not going to work for my girls, if it is only going to bring contention and continue to foster such bad attitudes in my girls (and by extension me,) then perhaps it is best we set it aside. Even if for only a few years and then come back to it.

 

Sounds like they do need something different. We had similar issues with TOG. I wanted to love it, and if I were the student it would be great. But for my son, who has ADHD, working memory issues, and is just NOT as studious as I was, it was a bad fit. We did our own thing after I dropped it, organized around SOTW, using documentaries, extra reading from the library, historical fiction, etc. Next year I don't have time to plan it all out so we are going to do Sonlight. I think Sonlight is more of a big picture focus, and TOG is more detail oriented, and my son will do better with the former.

[PeterPan]

Jennifer, I don't know how far you've gotten in your thinking since this post, but I wanted to suggest to you that it's a really crying shame to do something as permanent and drastic as flunking a hs kid for the year and telling them to repeat 7th over TOG comprehension questions or an online class. Maybe you're seeing more?? You must be. Seriously, 7th grade is just BAD for these kids. Like brain blurr, what happened to my kid, pea brains in big bodies kinda bad. Have you noticed how 7th grade curriculum actually MEANT for 7th graders (like the BJU 7) REPEAT so much that year and overlap? Their science ramps up, but even that they mean to be taught and explained and have their hand held through. The math is an extension of previous stuff for half the year and stuff that will be repeated IN ENTIRETY the following year.

 

I'm just suggesting that because she's your oldest, you may have over-assumptions of what 7th grade should look like.

 

That's thing one.

 

Thing two is that yes, you could get TOG to work IF you got it out of the box. I mean, mercy, so far you've said that the there are components of TOG that aren't working, but you don't drop or change them. Either you're going to hold onto those components and force your kids to bend, or the materials have to bend to fit the kids. Once you start talking kids with ADD, sensory, etc., you're talking kids who are inherently less flexible. They're kids who learn best when *engaged*. No attention, no learning. You can't force it with them. They also need structure. Their processing speed isn't going to be adequate for a live, online discussion class. Having all the discussion questions in advance is a reasonable and necessary accommodation. Even with that, a live online class is probably a stretch for her developmentally right now.

 

The VP self-paced history works extremely well for kids like this. It has enough interactivity to make sure they're attending and not drifting. It has stories and costumes and humor to keep them engaged. And it has lots and lots and lots of review to make sure they nail the most important stuff. So to me, it's my primary recommend for elementary. This year my dd is doing the two american history courses. She did NTGR during their one month free trial. (Yes, that was insanely fast, she's a nut.) She did MARR last year. They're exceptionally well done. And actually there's word on the street that they're working on self-paced versions of Omnibus. I don't know where that stands, but they dropped hints about it.

 

After she finishes american, we're planning to do the Pilgrim's Progress unit study from AIG. Then we'll probably start back into ancients. I like TOG a lot and have it as my back-up plan, my go-to if I don't find something to fit her better. If we do it, we'll have to be very flexible. I'm trying to have a set-up where she's a good version of herself, not a crappy version of someone else. I mean, think about it. I didn't keep her home all these years to have her be a C student in someone else's paradigm. There's a way to teach her where she learns a lot and *is* an A student, but she's an A student in her own way. I think there are skills that are non-negotiable and have to be covered, but that's different from content. And even skills can have a different, extended timetable or be done in more creative ways that work with the gifts of the child. I totally think it's fine to do powerpoint presentations and scrapbooking and alternative stuff. In fact, I think it's VITAL. And when you do that as ways of output for the academics and ways of getting in the skills instead of just doing what came on the list for TOG, you start to unleash what is good inside of them. That's what you want to come out. You're not keeping them home to fail. You're keeping her home to find things she's GOOD at and help her succeed. That's much more important than learning the three reasons for the fall of communism, kwim?

[Candid]

Have you looked in detail, in a couple of weeks when she couldn't find the answer? It would be good to know whether you agree with her assessment or if she is having a hard time extracting the answer from the materials given.

 

It is possible she needs guidance in learning how to get facts out of books. This is a fairly useful skill to learn. It is possible that she is in over her level and she needs you to trim down the amount of material read and questions. Or she may need guidance if she can't get big question A then you'll need to break it down into smaller questions a, alpha, etc.

 

I will say, that Year 1 of Redesign had a gap between the pre-questions asked and what was asked in the discussion time period because their intent was to use the pre-questions as a spring board. In following years this smoothed out.

 

On a purely personal level, my oldest oftens gives the answer in the discussion time period so close to what is in the IG. I have joked in our co-op that he can channel Marica Somerville.

[school4princesses]

Jennifer, I don't know how far you've gotten in your thinking since this post, but I wanted to suggest to you that it's a really crying shame to do something as permanent and drastic as flunking a hs kid for the year and telling them to repeat 7th over TOG comprehension questions or an online class. Maybe you're seeing more??

 

Yes - this is a child who has been extremely strong willed since birth. This is a child who insists on doing things her way, despite the fact that her way doesn't work though she continues in it over and over. She refuses to ask questions when she doesn't understand something, despite my asking her if she understands or needs help with something. This is a child who will claim to have done her reading, but really only spent time skimming for answers. It is not unique to TOG. This has been in every.single.subject. This is a child who, though she has had the same chores in the home (on a rotating schedule) will still forget every.single.chore.every.single.day unless given a reminder, though they are all written out for everyone and posted on the fridge. And the quality of her work in every.single.chore. is worse than her 6 year old sister. This is a kid who is very smart. The observations she has made over the years have proven that. But, she is soooo strong-willed. If she doesn't care about something, then her attitude about it is bad and her effort at it will be the bare minimum until she has worn me down enough that I will just let it go. And her three younger sisters have seen her tactics and emulate them. So with four kids pulling the same stunt, it doesn't take long to wear me down any more. As I said before, there are character issues at work here.

 

As for getting out of the box, we don't use all of TOG. We use history, Bible, geography (just copying the maps,) and portions of the Lit. As I've said before, this child will not read the books, not because she can't, but because she doesn't want to take the time. Instead of just doing it, she will spend an hour complaining about it, then will only skim the materials looking for answers, which of course will not be found because the questions are not asked verbatim. The suggestion to answer the questions on paper was from her LLC teacher. I have suggested it to her before because without it I have no proof that she has even cracked open the book. She is responsible for all of the questions for her LLC class, not just one or two that I pick out for her. If I only picked one or two, I guarantee you this child would skim the books to answer those and then shut the books.

[melmichigan]

Yes - this is a child who has been extremely strong willed since birth. This is a child who insists on doing things her way, despite the fact that her way doesn't work though she continues in it over and over. She refuses to ask questions when she doesn't understand something, despite my asking her if she understands or needs help with something. This is a child who will claim to have done her reading, but really only spent time skimming for answers. It is not unique to TOG. This has been in every.single.subject. This is a child who, though she has had the same chores in the home (on a rotating schedule) will still forget every.single.chore.every.single.day unless given a reminder, though they are all written out for everyone and posted on the fridge. And the quality of her work in every.single.chore. is worse than her 6 year old sister. This is a kid who is very smart. The observations she has made over the years have proven that. But, she is soooo strong-willed. If she doesn't care about something, then her attitude about it is bad and her effort at it will be the bare minimum until she has worn me down enough that I will just let it go. And her three younger sisters have seen her tactics and emulate them. So with four kids pulling the same stunt, it doesn't take long to wear me down any more. As I said before, there are character issues at work here.

 

As for getting out of the box, we don't use all of TOG. We use history, Bible, geography (just copying the maps,) and portions of the Lit. As I've said before, this child will not read the books, not because she can't, but because she doesn't want to take the time. Instead of just doing it, she will spend an hour complaining about it, then will only skim the materials looking for answers, which of course will not be found because the questions are not asked verbatim. The suggestion to answer the questions on paper was from her LLC teacher. I have suggested it to her before because without it I have no proof that she has even cracked open the book. She is responsible for all of the questions for her LLC class, not just one or two that I pick out for her. If I only picked one or two, I guarantee you this child would skim the books to answer those and then shut the books.

 

You mention that this is the case with all your DD's classes. What you are describing doesn't sound like a problem with your curriculum choices as much as it is a problem with this child, at this stage of development. Yes, you need to evaluate what might work best for her learning style, but also how are you going to motivate her to complete the work she needs to get done. Does she have the skills down to be expected to complete the tasks you are asking her to complete?

[Gratia271]

You mention that this is the case with all your DD's classes. What you are describing doesn't sound like a problem with your curriculum choices as much as it is a problem with this child, at this stage of development. Yes, you need to evaluate what might work best for her learning style, but also how are you going to motivate her to complete the work she needs to get done. Does she have the skills down to be expected to complete the tasks you are asking her to complete?

 

As a mom to a willful child, these are questions I have asked myself. You need to identify what she is capable of. Once you determine this,

you need to focus on holding her accountable. It is crucial to get out of the failure cycle, so lower the bar somewhat if you need to in order to help her be successful... but she must be held accountable. Maybe a more scripted approach for a time (unlike open-ended TOG) would help both of you accomplish this.

[Chris in VA]

I'm sorry it's so hard!

Perhaps she's not ready to be so independent in her work. I know it'd be difficult, but could you actually read WITH her, perhaps reading aloud by turns? Maybe asking for a narration, first orally, then written if orally is successful, would allow her to catch up on the learning? Some kids just need the structure of having a partner in their learning. While we might wish them to be independent and then meet with us, that model (TOG uses) is not always effective, esp with kids needing more hand-holding.

I'm sure you will find a good solution. :001_smile:

[Gratia271]

While we might wish them to be independent and then meet with us, that model (TOG uses) is not always effective, esp with kids needing more hand-holding. :001_smile:

 

:iagree:

[melmichigan]

While we might wish them to be independent and then meet with us, that model (TOG uses) is not always effective, esp with kids needing more hand-holding.

I'm sure you will find a good solution. :001_smile:

 

My DD is in a gap year to follow her own interests and to work on specific skills, one being narrowing down the main idea of a selection and giving a good narration, another is deciding what a question is asking and how best to answer it. I never thought I'd have to teach that, I thought it was just understood, but with this DD it just isn't. :lol: She is an excellent reader and has good comprehension, heck, her ACT on reading and english show that, but she is still missing some of those basic skills that don't involve filling in circles. :D (Disclosure: many other things came into play with our decision of a gap year, and my DD was in complete agreement.)

Edited March 18, 2012 by melmichigan

[ktgrok]

What about trying a totally different style? Maybe getting Switched on Schoohouse or something for one class, to see if that works better for her? Maybe she is an auditory learner, or visual, and reading doesn't work for her? With SOS I think they have to answer the questions on one section before they can move on to the next. It isn't the glory that is TOG, but it is better than nothing. Or maybe she needs workbook format for a while. Or to watch documentaries instead of a lot of reading? Maybe more historical fiction, less non fiction?

[PeterPan]

Yes - this is a child who has been extremely strong willed since birth. This is a child who insists on doing things her way, despite the fact that her way doesn't work though she continues in it over and over. She refuses to ask questions when she doesn't understand something, despite my asking her if she understands or needs help with something. This is a child who will claim to have done her reading, but really only spent time skimming for answers. It is not unique to TOG. This has been in every.single.subject. This is a child who, though she has had the same chores in the home (on a rotating schedule) will still forget every.single.chore.every.single.day unless given a reminder, though they are all written out for everyone and posted on the fridge. And the quality of her work in every.single.chore. is worse than her 6 year old sister. This is a kid who is very smart. The observations she has made over the years have proven that. But, she is soooo strong-willed. If she doesn't care about something, then her attitude about it is bad and her effort at it will be the bare minimum until she has worn me down enough that I will just let it go. And her three younger sisters have seen her tactics and emulate them. So with four kids pulling the same stunt, it doesn't take long to wear me down any more. As I said before, there are character issues at work here.

 

As for getting out of the box, we don't use all of TOG. We use history, Bible, geography (just copying the maps,) and portions of the Lit. As I've said before, this child will not read the books, not because she can't, but because she doesn't want to take the time. Instead of just doing it, she will spend an hour complaining about it, then will only skim the materials looking for answers, which of course will not be found because the questions are not asked verbatim. The suggestion to answer the questions on paper was from her LLC teacher. I have suggested it to her before because without it I have no proof that she has even cracked open the book. She is responsible for all of the questions for her LLC class, not just one or two that I pick out for her. If I only picked one or two, I guarantee you this child would skim the books to answer those and then shut the books.

 

I'm not meaning to come across as critical here, but everything you've just described is *par for the course* for ADHD. Clearly you're not the one she got it from. ;)

 

I assume you've done this, but have you done any reading on executive function? That mess with the chores you described is because of EF problems. It's developmental, a part of the brain, and it's actually something you can *improve* by working therapeutically on that part of the brain. What you want are the EF training workbooks from Linguisystems. It includes suggestions for how to work on it with life activities (games, etc.) as well. Some of the activities we did for VT (vision therapy) that incorporated working memory helped in our house. My dd went from NEVER feeding the dog to GENERALLY feeding the dog. So that's one thing to pursue.

 

Right now you've got battles. It's just not practical to constantly battle a kid who's wired a certain way and say she ought to be another. TOG doesn't even sound like it interests her. Mercifully, my dd adores history. But history in our house is doing the VP online, which is totally interactive and narrative and intriguing, and reading whatever she picks from the piles I find for her. That's it. No discussion questions. No telling them they ought to find interesting something they don't.

 

I try to pick my battles very, very carefully. For instance, it's imperative that at some point the child be able to read a non-fiction book merely because she's told to. It's a different skill from reading historical fiction or science fiction or things they happen to be drawn to. But that DOESN'T mean she has to read a particular book off some list and it DOESN'T mean she has to do the output on it someone thought up. So I pick that battle very, very carefully. I tell her she needs to read SOMETHING non-fiction for that week. I give her a very precise checklist for the week with clear expectations. On Saturday or Sunday we sit down and pick out our resources and make our plans. I fill out the checklist. She knows what is non-flexible and what is flexible. These days, I show her a pile of books on the history topic and ask her to pick out *3* she's planning to read. If she reads more, that's her deal. But it's totally her choice as to which she picks. It's a way of working around that inflexibility, kwim? And if she doesn't like the books in my pile, she can find new ones.

 

It's a battle if you let it be. Give her more choice. I know she's probably not an academically driven bug. Neither is my kid. Stop fighting and go with it. Spend less time on academics, make the expectations shorter and tighter, and put in some things that really light her fire. Does she sew? What does she like to do?

 

I'm not crazy on this. When we had our neuropsych eval, the #1 thing he said I should do was to trim her day and not overwork her. He said she needed time to rest (because academics ARE hard for her and DO take more effort) so that she had energy for her *creative* stuff and the stuff she really enjoys. Basically he said I should take the time amounts appropriate for her EF equivalent age (that part of the brain) but do age-appropriate academic levels during that time. So I'm talking about keeping her regular academics to 3-4 hours a day (not 5-7 like is typical for junior high) and then having the rest of the day for things she ENJOYS.

 

She's not being BAD. She's just being who she IS. I know you think I don't understand, but I totally do. I've had to loosen my expectations a lot. It's not that the standard goes down, but I've come to value more the whole, peaceful child, and am finding ways to pick smaller, more precise battles, to bend. Someone on here called it modeling the flexibility you want them to have. ;) It's very important. Otherwise, you're just fighting and fighting, trying to make a square peg go in a round hole. These kids are very good at being who they are, and I think you can find and nurture the good in them, rather than having it constantly be a battle about what they can't do and what they aren't. The boards are a very bad influence in that respect, because they build up this image of what kids should be doing and could be doing at a particular age. Then we have this problem when our reality conflicts with that picture.

 

Check out those EF workbooks from Linguisystems. Might change things dramatically. Not only are the activities stretching, but it has checklists that help you see the amount of structure they need to be successful.

Edited March 18, 2012 by OhElizabeth