Thoughts on these science progressions

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So I'm thinking through high school science progressions. My older kids are currently 7th and 8th grade. The 7th grader has been academically a match for his brother since they were little. Both are sharp, fast readers and doing pretty well with AoPS Algebra (they are in chapter 10, which should put them on schedule to finish with chapter 13 by summer).

 

Right now they are doing geology, using Teaching Company DVDs (How the Earth Works) and Earth by Tarbuck Lutgens.

 

Our intention had been for them to do AP Environmental Science as 8th/9th graders. The progression with this would look something like this:

 

Environmental Science (with AP exam)

Physics

Chemistry

Biology or advanced physics or advanced chemistry (possibly with an AP exam for the advanced physics or chemistry)

 

The other sequence I'm now toying with would be:

 

Physics

Chemistry

Biology

Advanced science option to be named later

 

 

I'd be interested in thoughts about either of these. Both of these kids are (at the moment) interested in the military. Service academy admissions recommend chemistry (and when possible, physics) so I want to make sure they have a good foundation for these. On the other hand, Rutabaga (#1 son) has been interested in insects since he was a little kid, and I could also see him off on a biology/ecology path (especially if he had to climb rocks or up trees to observe his habitat of choice).

 

So hit me with the good, bad and ugly of this.

[HollyDay]

My first thought would be about their math sequence. What physics are you going to use and what is the math requirement for that? We have chosen to do physics last in order to complete as much math as possible prior to that subject. Some chemistry programs also have a math requirement.

[LisaKinVA]

Since you're looking at service academies...I would recommend taking calculus-based Physics later...rather than an easier Physics course early on (unless there is time/interest to do Physics twice)

 

My oldest is looking at USMMA, USNA and USCGA (salt in his blood, I think). He will take Algebra-based Physics, AP Chem, AP Bio and AP Physics (or dual-enroll at CC instead of APs). Also, don't rule out taking a science during the summer or doubling up. Service Academies *like* to see science and math :D

 

Also CK-12 has high-school engineering and nano-tech classes that you could look into as well (esp. since they are free).

[HodgesSchool]

Sounds like we're thinking about pretty similar trajectories. I'm eager to hear how other people answer your question!

 

We're thinking:

 

8th: Astronomy for one semester and Earth Sciences for one semester (using TC videos as well as books)

 

9th: Environmental Science

 

10-12 Bio, Chem, Physics w/calc (unsure of order)

 

(I have a pretty nerdy son and I can imagine that he might want to take AP exams or take college classes for all of his high school sciences. We'll see how things go.)

[HodgesSchool]

Right now they are doing geology, using Teaching Company DVDs (How the Earth Works) and Earth by Tarbuck Lutgens.

 

What do you think of the video lectures for geology?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

What do you think of the video lectures for geology?

 

So far we're liking it. But it is also a field of hobby interest for the family. We try to go out fossiling a couple times a year. So it is also a little bit of fun family time.

 

I think we're getting a lot out of the book and the video series together. The videos alone would give a good overview, but I like that the book provides back up.

[snowbeltmom]

My first thought would be about their math sequence. What physics are you going to use and what is the math requirement for that? We have chosen to do physics last in order to complete as much math as possible prior to that subject. Some chemistry programs also have a math requirement.

:iagree:

 

 

AP Chemistry requires a good grasp of logarithms. AP Physics B requires mastering of quadratics and a simple knowledge of the right triangle.

 

I am also looking ahead for my 7th grader and trying to map out his high school science years. One of the issues I am considering is when the AP science class will be revised - if at all possible, I would not want to take the AP class the first year of changes.

[homeschoolkitty]

For the Bio AP, sometimes if your student attempts and does not pass the test...I've heard that the student can graduate with "Honors" still. You have to check in your state. Speciallly if student takes a Bio AP type of class. Meaning Student takes Bio, and then Bio AP.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

For the Bio AP, sometimes if your student attempts and does not pass the test...I've heard that the student can graduate with "Honors" still. You have to check in your state. Speciallly if student takes a Bio AP type of class. Meaning Student takes Bio, and then Bio AP.

 

In my state, there is no state requirement for homeschool diplomas (just as there is no state guideline for private school diplomas).

 

So a student at the high school down the road will still have the AP designation on the transcript even if he fails the test, assuming the school has gone through the syllabus validation process with College Board.

 

I'm not sure that honors is meaningful on a homeschool transcript.

[AngieW in Texas]

My oldest did

Miller&Levine Biology

Spectrum Chemistry

Hewitt's Conceptual Physics sort of combined with Giancoli's Physics

one semester each of General College Physics and Introductory Chemistry at cc

 

My middle dd has done/will do

Holt Biology (much nicer than Miller&Levine)

Giancoli's Physics

Tro's Introductory Chemistry

will take Chem I&II and Biology I&II for science majors at cc

 

If I had it to do all over again, I would do conceptual physics then chemistry then biology and finally advanced science.

 

My plan for the youngest is

Hewitt's Conceptual Physics

either Prentice Hall Chemistry or Zumdahl's World of Chemistry or Conceptual Chemistry or Tro's Introductory Chemistry (if her math really improves)

Holt Biology

some other science or an advanced level of a science she has already done

Edited April 3, 2012 by AngieW in Texas

[regentrude]

I prefer physics first with the opportunity to study one science in more depth in 12th grade.

Math wise, your kids should be fine for an algebra/trig based physics course - they'd need algebra 1 through quadratics which they will have, and minimum trig which can be learned in one afternoon. My DD worked through AoPS Intro to Algebra (whole book) in 7th grade and took College Physics (alg/trig based) the next Fall. So definitely doable.

If your students keep working on algebra and get through exponents/logarithms they can even do RC circuits; if you start them on geometry you could skip RC circuits. But they need exponentials/logs for chemistry, so I would continue with Intro to Algebra through the book to cover the rest.

[Gwen in VA]

Do remember that a student does not HAVE to have done the science before in order to do the AP version.

 

My older two both did AP physics B as their first physics class.

My younger son is doing calc-based physics at the CC as his first physics class.

Dd2 is doing AP chem as her first chem class, and she is thriving.

 

Not doing a year of the subject before doing AP would allow your sons to do more AP sciences and not have to double up on science every year.

 

Do keep track of what level of math is required for which science. Biology used to be the standard 9th grade science because it requires so little math.

 

If your boys are looking for a rigorous science sequence, I would stick with the standard bio/chem/physics one and NOT put physics in 9th, when they don't really have enough math for a standard coverage of the material.

[regentrude]

If your boys are looking for a rigorous science sequence, I would stick with the standard bio/chem/physics one and NOT put physics in 9th, when they don't really have enough math for a standard coverage of the material.

 

Her sons are through quadratic equations in AoPS intro to Algebra. This means they have all the math necessary for AP Physics B.

[regentrude]

If your boys are looking for a rigorous science sequence, I would stick with the standard bio/chem/physics one and NOT put physics in 9th, when they don't really have enough math for a standard coverage of the material.

 

The OP's sons are through quadratic equations in AoPS intro to Algebra. This means they should have all the math necessary for AP Physics B.

Edited April 4, 2012 by regentrude

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The OP's sons are through quadratic equations in AoPS intro to Algebra. This means they should have all the math necessary for AP Physics B.

 

In fact, they have been working with quadratics the last couple of weeks, and it does seem to finally have clicked. Can't wait til they see the equations that have both X and Y.

 

Of course, that begs the question of if we should do Algebra 2 or Geometry next.

[Jamee]

I was science heavy in school, but we had no AP science classes then. For me I took, four years of science:

9th Bio--had to get special permission since 9th graders didn't take science; heavy in the dissections

10th Chemistry (now that I think of it, there was AP, but it conflicted with German)

11th Anatomy and Physiology--fantastic class! but I was bio based

12th Physics at the local community college: LOTS of heavy math, almost too much for me and I was also taking Calc. (ETA: I can't believe the AP only requires up to quadratics. Most of the physics students I knew were taking it as seniors with either Math Analysis (pre-calc) or calc)

 

I too would agree with doing the chem and physics later, so that they can be more in depth and math based. Good luck! I can't imagine.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Jamee

[KAR120C]

I kind of like the Environmental Science one... just because I think that if it's well done it can be a good foundation for the rest. I know that's not the standard approach, but because Environmental Science is an interdisciplinary course, including biology, chemistry, and physics... plenty of earth science... some behavioral science... politics and law interacting with science....

 

I like the idea of doing it first before the pure sciences, just to establish and hopefully keep in mind that even pure science does not exist in a vacuum, and that messy people are involved in the whole thing. :)

 

On the other hand, with the time pressure of college/ service academy applications and a specific requirement you want to meet, it might be a luxury you don't want to spend a year on.... And if you already have a family hobby of earth sciences you could save school time for the things you need on the transcript, and pursue fossils and insects in your free time.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

In fact, they have been working with quadratics the last couple of weeks, and it does seem to finally have clicked. Can't wait til they see the equations that have both X and Y.

 

Of course, that begs the question of if we should do Algebra 2 or Geometry next.

 

That is my question as well...also, in AoPS do you need to finish the other Intro courses (ie probability) before beginning Geometry? There is something in the PreAlgebra book that hints but doesn't specify.

 

(Sorry for the math interruption...back to my other-science-question.)

 

Would someone please explain the logic of starting with Physics rather than the traditional Bio/Chem/Phys sequence?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I kind of like the Environmental Science one... just because I think that if it's well done it can be a good foundation for the rest. I know that's not the standard approach, but because Environmental Science is an interdisciplinary course, including biology, chemistry, and physics... plenty of earth science... some behavioral science... politics and law interacting with science....

 

I like the idea of doing it first before the pure sciences, just to establish and hopefully keep in mind that even pure science does not exist in a vacuum, and that messy people are involved in the whole thing. :)

 

On the other hand, with the time pressure of college/ service academy applications and a specific requirement you want to meet, it might be a luxury you don't want to spend a year on.... And if you already have a family hobby of earth sciences you could save school time for the things you need on the transcript, and pursue fossils and insects in your free time.

 

One of my thoughts with enviromental science is that I would have both my 9th grader and 8th grader taking that class. They've been linked in math and many other subjects since the beginning, and if anything, the younger boy is a tad faster on picking up new ideas. So I was thinking that a course with an outside quantification like AP would help to justify the "above the line" work.

 

Of course, that assumes they are able to knuckle down to high school level work and get a passing score. :tongue_smilie:

 

FWIW, I looked at the high school down the road (heavy into AP) and they seem to do:

9th grade: Biology is the only option

10-12 grades: a variety of chemistry, physics, AP enviro, AP chem, AP physics and a couple specialty courses like geosystems, anatomy and physio, and astronomy.

So not much help there. I imagine they are going with bio/chem/physics/advanced science if there is a 4th

[snowbeltmom]

That is my question as well...also, in AoPS do you need to finish the other Intro courses (ie probability) before beginning Geometry? There is something in the PreAlgebra book that hints but doesn't specify.

Imo, you don't have to complete C&P or number theory before beginning geometry. Because the AoPS Geometry is the most challenging of the introductory level books, my kids completed (or will complete) it last in the introductory level sequence.

 

Also, regarding the science sequence, imo, as others have mentioned, the sequence is going to depend to some extent on the level of math a student is at entering high school. If the biology course is going to include the Krebs cycle, it really helps to have a chemistry background first.

[regentrude]

That is my question as well...also, in AoPS do you need to finish the other Intro courses (ie probability) before beginning Geometry? There is something in the PreAlgebra book that hints but doesn't specify.

 

No. The only prerequisite for geometry is Intro to Algebra (and you could get by with only the algebra 1 portion which is the first 13 or so chapters).

My DD completed geometry right after finishing the Intro to Algebra text.

 

Would someone please explain the logic of starting with Physics rather than the traditional Bio/Chem/Phys sequence?

 

Biology needs a lot of chemistry, so chemistry should be taught before bio. Chemistry is based on Phyics, so Physics should be taught before Chemistry.

 

The traditional sequence is not logical at all from a content point of view; it is solely based on the lack of math for the average 9th grader.