Can't or won't write?

[mo2]

My 9yo, that is. I can't figure out if she simply refuses to write or if she really *can't* do it. She can do the physical act of writing. She does copywork well. If I dictate a sentence, she can write it (although I have to spell nearly every word aloud for her). But if I ask her to write a narration down, she freezes up. She says she can't do it. If I say, "Write me a sentence about a dog," she can't do it. We tried CW and the first lesson was to re-write one of Aesop's fables, and she couldn't do it. Of course she knew very well what the story was about, but she couldn't write it. She gets very upset, freaks out, even cries, until eventually I give it up and say we'll try again later. But later, we just have a repeat of the same. So what is going on here? What am I not seeing? *Can* she write? Or is she being super-amazingly stubborn?

 

 

I'm debating between IEW and WWE. Which would be best for this situation? Should I do both? Would that be overkill?

[LisaKinVA]

If she will narrate orally, I would get her something to record herself on, and then have her copy it from that...once she gets a bit more confident that she can come up with the words herself, it should disappear altogether.

 

Some kids just aren't ready to make the jump from oral narrations to written narrations all in one fell swoop. This gives them an intermediate step.

[Spock]

My 9yo, that is. I can't figure out if she simply refuses to write or if she really *can't* do it. She can do the physical act of writing. She does copywork well. If I dictate a sentence, she can write it (although I have to spell nearly every word aloud for her). But if I ask her to write a narration down, she freezes up. She says she can't do it. If I say, "Write me a sentence about a dog," she can't do it. We tried CW and the first lesson was to re-write one of Aesop's fables, and she couldn't do it. Of course she knew very well what the story was about, but she couldn't write it. She gets very upset, freaks out, even cries, until eventually I give it up and say we'll try again later. But later, we just have a repeat of the same. So what is going on here? What am I not seeing? *Can* she write? Or is she being super-amazingly stubborn?

 

 

I'm debating between IEW and WWE. Which would be best for this situation? Should I do both? Would that be overkill?

 

If she still needs most of the words of a dictation spelled for/with her, she will struggle greatly with written narration (unless neither she nor you minds if the narration is badly spelled). Deciding what to say, how to say it, and remembering what she decided to say while trying to remember how to spell "people" and most of the other words she wanted to write can be extremely difficult.

 

If she is willing, you might try letting her write a rough draft of her sentence or written narration, letting her know that spelling, punctuation, etc don't matter at this point. The next day (or the same day, if she doesn't mind that much writing at once), have her go over it with you and fix spelling and other mistakes. Maybe splitting up the "thinking of what to say" stage and the "writing it down correctly" stage will help.

 

Alternatively, you can continue working on dictation and/or other forms of spelling instruction separately, and write down any narrations you want in written form. Perhaps you can have her copy your written version of her narrations as an additional intermediate step, helping her learn to spell the words she actually uses in her own speaking/writing.

 

Writing from a voice recording of her oral narration might help, but there is still the "How do I spell all those words?" aspect, plus pausing the recording frequently and possibly rewinding to listen again to what she forgot she said while she was trying to figure out how to write it down.

 

I would probably focus intensively on spelling and oral narration for now, and save written narration for when her spelling has improved to the point that she doesn't need more than a word or two spelled per paragraph.

[ErinE]

I think there is a period of time where kids can express their thoughts verbally, but freeze when asked to write it down. From what I've gleaned from other writing programs, I had to help my ds through the process of thinking a sentence and holding it in his head so he could write it down. SWB has a great video where she's working with her youngest son.

 

Using your example, I would ask my ds to tell me the main characters in the fable. Then I'd ask: what did the characters do? If it becomes a verbatim recitation, I would narrow it down with questions. What did they do first? Second? What was the problem? How was it solved? What happened in the end? Throughout this process, I would keep notes in my head or write down notes on a lap whiteboard. From this, I would guide ds to construct 3-4 sentences. Then, I would either dictate the sentences back to him, starting at 2 sentences and moving up to the whole passage or if he was working on cursive, I would have him do copywork.

 

ETA: What Spock said...

[mo2]

Thank you for your responses. I think those sound a lot like SWB's method in WWE, if I'm not mistaken. So maybe I should go with WWE with a lot of extra help?

[ErinE]

You might want to start with WWE2. It will build up your dd's confidence in doing narrations before moving onto WWE3.

[Pen]

I'm debating between IEW and WWE. Which would be best for this situation? Should I do both? Would that be overkill?

 

If you have to choose just one, then I vote IEW!!! (SWI-A plus TWSS). IEW tends to separate and free up the idea of writing from other things like spelling or handwriting.

 

You might also look at Brave Writer. But of all these IEW is my top pick if just one thing is to be used. Here we mix things up for variety and to get in enough writing. Doing more makes it start to become easier, which leads to less resistance and so on...

 

We do both IEW and WWE and use elements of free writing. For the blocked writing type situation I think the IEW and BW concepts have helped more than WWE--but I like the WWE for copywork method etc. I also think Z-B is excellent for grammar etc. though it gets little attention from most posters except for its handwriting. Guyku might also be of interest to free her up and get past this difficulty...it's not just good for boys.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Pen

[laundrycrisis]

WWE1. It was truly where DS1 needed to start. He just finished it. He improved a lot with this problem through WWE1. He never felt like it was babyish, because it's not. BTW he is 8.5. When a particular skill is a particular challenge, baby steps count.

[PeterPan]

Not to be nosy, but is this the dc you had evaluated (just noticing your posts on the SN board)? What did they find? Seems to me your answer partly depends on what's causing her problems. Having to spell EVERY WORD with a 9 yo is not normal. If this is your OCD dc, then that totally could affect how she's handling dictation. I think WWE is on the right track, but you may need to back it up even more. WWE gets really hard, really fast for some kids with SN. What are you doing for spelling? Your program may have sentences you could use for dictation that would be more realistic.

 

So yes, I'd back up and consider what you're using for spelling and fix the problem as a whole. I like WWE, but it might not be your best option right now.

[mo2]

Not to be nosy, but is this the dc you had evaluated (just noticing your posts on the SN board)? What did they find? Seems to me your answer partly depends on what's causing her problems. Having to spell EVERY WORD with a 9 yo is not normal. If this is your OCD dc, then that totally could affect how she's handling dictation. I think WWE is on the right track, but you may need to back it up even more. WWE gets really hard, really fast for some kids with SN. What are you doing for spelling? Your program may have sentences you could use for dictation that would be more realistic.

 

So yes, I'd back up and consider what you're using for spelling and fix the problem as a whole. I like WWE, but it might not be your best option right now.

 

 

 

Yes, OhElizabeth, this is same dc. The evaluation hasn't actually been completed yet, so I'm still sort of...unsure...on that aspect of things.

 

We are using AAS for spelling, in level 2, and she enjoys it. BUT...she insists on spelling every word aloud to make sure she spells it right before she writes it down. She doesn't want to have to erase and rewrite (I think...??). So, yes, she does get a little dictation in her spelling.

 

I should probably reread The Complete Writer and listen to SWB's elementary writing mp3 and forego the WWE workbooks for now.

 

Thanks to everyone who had input. I'd love to hear more. :bigear:

[mo2]

one last bump

[PeterPan]

That sounds like an anxiety thing. In any case, since the goal of dictation IS to spell the word correctly before writing, I'd just embrace it. But maybe embrace and then refine it a bit. If she could *visualize* the spelling in her head, it would accept her need to work through it and be confident but shift it to be a bit more socially acceptable. You could practice visualization of spelling in a separate situation, then bring it in later into your dictation time. Wean her off of needing then to say the letters out loud. At first she could visualize it and say the letters.

 

Freed in his book "Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World" has a lot of tips for how to do things like that.

[lewelma]

Yes, OhElizabeth, this is same dc. The evaluation hasn't actually been completed yet, so I'm still sort of...unsure...on that aspect of things.

 

We are using AAS for spelling, in level 2, and she enjoys it. BUT...she insists on spelling every word aloud to make sure she spells it right before she writes it down. She doesn't want to have to erase and rewrite (I think...??).

 

Ahhhh, this changes things in my point of view (I gave you advice on the other thread). I considered getting my ds tested for OCD at the same age, and he also HAD to spell everything correctly. THIS is the issue you need to deal with first, not the ability to take dictation or to write a narration. You must teach your dd that it OK, even more that OK to misspell words while composing -- it must be a requirement. IMHO, you need to make sure that she NEVER has a perfect paper the first time. If she won't cross things out, then you will. A messy paper needs to become so commonplace that she loses her anxiety over imperfection. Separate spelling completely from composing, and tell her so. Spelling happens at spelling time, and during composing time you expect a messy draft with misspelled words and cross outs. Show her an example. Explain to her that edits lead to better compositions (IEW stresses this). Do this for a full year, and then integrate spelling back into her compositions. This approach has worked for my ds, who was so similar as to be your dd's twin.

 

Good luck,

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited February 9, 2012 by lewelma

[mo2]

That sounds like an anxiety thing. In any case, since the goal of dictation IS to spell the word correctly before writing, I'd just embrace it. But maybe embrace and then refine it a bit. If she could *visualize* the spelling in her head, it would accept her need to work through it and be confident but shift it to be a bit more socially acceptable. You could practice visualization of spelling in a separate situation, then bring it in later into your dictation time. Wean her off of needing then to say the letters out loud. At first she could visualize it and say the letters.

 

Freed in his book "Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World" has a lot of tips for how to do things like that.

 

This makes sense. I agree it may be her anxiety coming into play. I will see if my library has that book.

 

Ahhhh, this changes things in my point of view (I gave you advice on the other thread). I considered getting my ds tested for OCD at the same age, and he also HAD to spell everything correctly. THIS is the issue you need to deal with first, not the ability to take dictation or to write a narration. You must teach your dd that it OK, even more that OK to misspell words while composing -- it must be a requirement. IMHO, you need to make sure that she NEVER has a perfect paper the first time. If she won't cross things out, then you will. A messy paper needs to become so commonplace that she loses her anxiety over imperfection. Separate spelling completely from composing, and tell her so. Spelling happens at spelling time, and during composing time you expect a messy draft with misspelled words and cross outs. Show her an example. Explain to her that edits lead to better compositions (IEW stresses this). Do this for a full year, and then integrate spelling back into her compositions. This approach has worked for my ds, who was so similar as to be your dd's twin.

 

Good luck,

 

Ruth in NZ

 

This makes sense too. She is so afraid of having to rewrite something!

 

I'll tell you what worked for ds11: I let him type out his essays using his I Pod Touch. When he's done, he emails it to me and I print it out. It's as if his mind opened to to universe! I am seeing beautiful complex sentences, the correct use of punctuation, and great topic sentences. The whole bit. This is coming from a dc who seemingly couldn't get much of anything down on paper, took forever to write, and usually ended up in tears. He now finishes his work in 10-15 minutes. I'm just AMAZED.

 

Learning to type is on the agenda for this year.

[In2why]

I feel horrible, because I just wrote a thread about having a good day with writing, and I feel it was insensitive so close to this thread. I am a fan, and now a believer in WWE. I can see a major difference between the writing process for my youngest who has learned with WWE and my older (7th) who until this year went to PS. I also think the dictations from AAS are beneficial. I see that you are already using that for spelling. I would suggest level 1 of WWE, so that she can learn the process and gain confidence. I hope others are able to help with the anxiety, I know that it is hard when our kids struggle. :grouphug:

[mo2]

I feel horrible, because I just wrote a thread about having a good day with writing, and I feel it was insensitive so close to this thread. I am a fan, and now a believer in WWE. I can see a major difference between the writing process for my youngest who has learned with WWE and my older (7th) who until this year went to PS. I also think the dictations from AAS are beneficial. I see that you are already using that for spelling. I would suggest level 1 of WWE, so that she can learn the process and gain confidence. I hope others are able to help with the anxiety, I know that it is hard when our kids struggle. :grouphug:

 

 

Wow, thank you. I certainly don't want you to feel bad because your kids are writing well. I'm sure you have your struggles too; we all do. SWB's method of teaching writing makes sense to me, but narration and dictation are going to be hard for us.