Joan in GE Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Help!!! The shoe is on the other foot! Please write to HSLDA!!! Ask them to change the location of the Global Conference to a location outside Germany. People in Germany and Europe have been asking HSLDA to NOT hold their Global Conference in Berlin this fall. But HSLDA isn't listening! Please 'bump' this message up to keep it current on the forum. There are some people who want to hold the conference in Berlin, but lots of people in very precarious home education situations in a country where home education is illegal, DO NOT think it wise to hold the conference in Berlin. There are many reasons not to: 1. Berlin is a 'state' which has been known to show up at the door of a person who had home educated in another state and was moving to Berlin to put her child into school. This person and her child have now been put into a home where they have to sleep on separate floors (under guard basically). How did they know she was arriving? Why do that to someone who had officially registered her child in a school? There are families there who have lost custody of their children! HSLDA cannot guarantee protection from surveillance by German authorities at this meeting. That means many of the individuals they are supposed to support, probably would not feel free to attend. German authorities have pursued home educators who have left Germany to try to bring back home educated children to German to place them in foster care.... 2. People in precarious positions feel it could anger the government and endanger the grass roots individuals and groups that have positive relationships with their local authorities and therefore they could lose their freedom. 3. Lack of transparency - the idea originated at an HSLDA meeting in the US. People protested on the street when HSLDA helped back a meeting in the Netherlands several years ago. Unless they hide their involvement, there could be lots of negative press in a country which is against "parallel societies". But if they are not transparent, then they are being 'deceptive' which is not right either. Plus it could also be found out and have other negative effects. 4. HSLDA says they want to influence politicians, by inviting politicians....but German people on the ground in Germany (clearly different people than the people HSLDA is meeting with) think this will not have the desired effect because German politicians are not like US politicians. 5. HSLDA does not seem to read "German" politics or politicians or judges very well as so far, to my knowledge, they have not had a positive outcome for the trials they have been involved in....And even if there are one or two that I have somehow missed, there are more that they have lost. They only thing they have done successfully as far as I know is to support the move of the Romeike family to the US. So far, there has not been positive change in Germany from that though. 6. The 'top down' method (by law) of changing the home education system has not worked, so there are many German home educators who want to do the 'bottom up' approach, meaning slowly influence people and authorities around them and have greater and greater positive effects for the movement. 7. There are major and minor home education organizations which do not think the meeting should happen in Berlin against the wishes of German home educators eg www.BVNL.de, Les enfants d'abord (France), cise.fr , Learning Unlimited, ALE, The Otherwise Club, and others. Some don't want it to happen in Europe at all. Others are open to it being elsewhere in Europe (but not usually their country! They say any country where home educators aren't threatened by it). 8. HSLDA sent around a form asking who was interested in this meeting months ago. The problem? The form did not get to the people who don't have any connection to HSLDA and those who are most against HSLDA involvement in Europe (for past reasons that we won't go into here). So their opinion about the viability of this meeting and the worthwhileness of this endeavor was not asked. It feels 'imperialistic' for them to just come in and hold this meeting without real concensus among home educators in the country. They should have met with the real grassroots people who have done it, are doing it, and their children who are now grown up and want to home educate as well, not their limited list of contacts. 9. Germany is a country where authorities do not understand that "Parents having the right to decide their children's education" is a human right - even though they signed the UN Declaration for Human Rights. There are judges who are just determined to not let this freedom occur and come up with all kinds of excuses. And people do not believe that this meeting will change their minds positively. There are more reasons, and more complicated reasons - but I don't want this to get too long... If you want to propose something for HSLDA to do - propose that they help religiously neutral speakers such as Gordon Neufeld get speaking dates at European universities so that his ideas of the problems of peer pressure and other speakers who know the problems of 'school' or benefits of home education become well known, so that HE is not just seen as a 'far right' affair. Here are contact details: Please write, email, or call. And if you are an HSLDA member, please mention that. Home School Legal Defense Association Email address: international@hslda.org Mailing address: P.O. Box 3000 Purcellville, VA 20134 Phone: (540) 338-5600 Fax: (540) 338-2733 Joan Edited February 3, 2012 by Joan in Geneva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 bump WOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Thank you, I will plan to sit down and do this. I think that HSLDA is well intentioned and perhaps working in concert with some allies in Germany. But I've not been impressed with their understanding of German viewpoints on a lot of related issues. When we lived in Berlin, we were covered by diplomatic immunity. Also, it was not unusual for US military stationed in Germany to homeschool, and this was permitted under SOFA. We had the opportunity to live lives of not so quiet witness and persuassion. Our German children's church group had a woman working on her PhD in Theology who became a pastor in one of the downtown Berlin churches, two staffers for German parliamentarians (most German reps only have a couple staffers, rather than dozens), several highly placed lawyers and one family who left Berlin for Brussels when the father took a position on the EU staff. Other German friends included a woman who was a lawyer for the German equivalent of the Education Department. We tried to be very open about what we did, why we homeschooled, our struggles and successes. We did our best to discuss their concerns (who would teach calculus, how would the kids get into university) seriously and confidently. At the same time, there were few German residents homeschooling openly. We left before most of the notorious cases broke. But I did have a mom approach me once. She asked in whispers if we homeschooled. Then she told me that they did too. It was like being told about an Underground Railroad stop. And this was someone who felt like she had permission, because she'd filed that she was homeschooling and had received no objection. I think HSLDA is naive about the amount of trouble they can stir up for German homeschoolers with this. They don't seem to realize the concern about parallel societies (no, they aren't worried about a bunch of nice Baptists) or the slight distrust over the interaction of churches and politics that exists in Germany. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan C. Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Has anyone called HSLDA or gotten a response? Can you post about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Just thought I'd link to the discussion on the General Board... since there is more information there... If you call, ask for Mike Donnelly, he is the one in charge, on the International Desk. Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MN Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 9. Germany is a country where authorities do not understand that "Parents having the right to decide their children's education" is a human right - even though they signed the UN Declaration for Human Rights. Joan, Actually I'm not sure that HSLDA would assume that a country signing the UN Declaration for Human Rights would understand the right to homeschool, because the UN also came up with the Convention on the Rights of the Child, and that is something that HSLDA definitely thinks could restrict the right to homeschool: http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/20091120.asp Not sure if that will affect any of the letters to HSLDA, but thought I'd mention it just in case. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readwithem Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Oh my word. HSLDA had erroneous information on Germany on their website a few years ago when we were considering a transfer. This is ironic but also very sad. I emailed them and will post here if I get a response. Thanks Joan - how horrific for those of you there!! (I realize you're not in Germany but Switzerland but I know it will affect you as well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) I really think the HSLDA is not being naive or dense about this. I think they're acutely aware of the consequences of this whole thing because I think their real interests lie in driving membership in the USA and advancing their political views (like their opposition to the UN CRC). Any controversy or negative outcomes for German homeschoolers that come out of this will only help the HSLDA in the US because it will give them content for their newsletters to scare and/or enrage their membership. It's a win for them regardless of what happens to homeschoolers in Germany. Edited January 31, 2012 by WishboneDawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Thank you, I will plan to sit down and do this. snip We had the opportunity to live lives of not so quiet witness and persuassion. Our German children's church group had a woman working on her PhD in Theology who became a pastor in one of the downtown Berlin churches, two staffers for German parliamentarians (most German reps only have a couple staffers, rather than dozens), several highly placed lawyers and one family who left Berlin for Brussels when the father took a position on the EU staff. Other German friends included a woman who was a lawyer for the German equivalent of the Education Department. We tried to be very open about what we did, why we homeschooled, our struggles and successes. We did our best to discuss their concerns (who would teach calculus, how would the kids get into university) seriously and confidently. At the same time, there were few German residents homeschooling openly. We left before most of the notorious cases broke. But I did have a mom approach me once. She asked in whispers if we homeschooled. Then she told me that they did too. It was like being told about an Underground Railroad stop. And this was someone who felt like she had permission, because she'd filed that she was homeschooling and had received no objection. I think HSLDA is naive about the amount of trouble they can stir up for German homeschoolers with this. They don't seem to realize the concern about parallel societies (no, they aren't worried about a bunch of nice Baptists) or the slight distrust over the interaction of churches and politics that exists in Germany. Thank you for writing! Please ask people in organizations with which you are in contact to write as well! Also I'm glad to hear about the advertising you were doing. Has anyone called HSLDA or gotten a response? Can you post about it? Hi Susan - can you also email? It's so easy for the switchboard to not take a tally of calls.... Joan,Actually I'm not sure that HSLDA would assume that a country signing the UN Declaration for Human Rights would understand the right to homeschool, because the UN also came up with the Convention on the Rights of the Child, and that is something that HSLDA definitely thinks could restrict the right to homeschool: http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/20091120.asp Not sure if that will affect any of the letters to HSLDA, but thought I'd mention it just in case. Julie Hi Julie, I know that HSLDA has a different opinion about the UN docs. And it could be true for the US. It's interesting that countries can have such different responses to the same stimuli - but that is how it is in Europe. One method of advancing HE in one country can have an opposite affect in another country. About the CRC - there are people here who use it to defend home ed. So my point 9 was more about the resistance of Germany to seeing that home ed is a human right. Oh my word. HSLDA had erroneous information on Germany on their website a few years ago when we were considering a transfer. This is ironic but also very sad. I emailed them and will post here if I get a response. Thanks Joan - how horrific for those of you there!! (I realize you're not in Germany but Switzerland but I know it will affect you as well). Thank you for writing - and yes, please post! I really think the HSLDA is not being naive or dense about this. I think they're acutely aware of the consequences of this whole thing because I think their real interests lie in driving membership in the USA and advancing their political views (like their opposition to the UN CRC). Any controversy or negative outcomes for German homeschoolers that come out of this will only help the HSLDA in the US because it will give them content for their newsletters to scare and/or enrage their membership. It's a win for them regardless of what happens to homeschoolers in Germany. Please write and ask people around you in the US to write as well. I do think that at some level - if they get flooded with emails and letters, they might give it a second thought and make a change. Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 If you haven't written yet - please do! There is hope! They are becoming aware of the controversy! Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I really think the HSLDA is not being naive or dense about this. I think they're acutely aware of the consequences of this whole thing because I think their real interests lie in driving membership in the USA and advancing their political views (like their opposition to the UN CRC). Any controversy or negative outcomes for German homeschoolers that come out of this will only help the HSLDA in the US because it will give them content for their newsletters to scare and/or enrage their membership. It's a win for them regardless of what happens to homeschoolers in Germany. Sad to say, I have to agree with this and I really do not like having to be so suspicious of their motives. But, having watched them closely for the past few years, I can say that in my book, they've become a lobbying organization and like all lobbyists, they have their single, narrow, focus and will fight to advance that d*mn the consequences to anyone else. There are ways to be supportive of homeschoolers in other nations without putting them at risk of reprisal or disrepecting their nation and it's culture. Faith - I'll email...I'd be surprised if it did any good. I really think they do not care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 There are ways to be supportive of homeschoolers in other nations without putting them at risk of reprisal or disrepecting their nation and it's culture. Faith - I'll email... Faith - if you have any ideas for them about how to help home educators - please give them... At the end of my first post, I'd mentioned getting neutral speakers to speak in European universities....like Gordon Neufeld... Maybe someone should propose Susan? One thing that has been ignored by the general public are the gifted whose needs aren't typically met in local schools....so people who could speak about them - do you know anyone? Then there are special needs - and how home education can support them.... All the different reasons why home education can be beneficial - there should be speakers for all the different reasons, to show the diversity of the movement! If people can write with proposals - maybe it will give them ideas.:001_smile: Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Faith - if you have any ideas for them about how to help home educators - please give them... At the end of my first post, I'd mentioned getting neutral speakers to speak in European universities....like Gordon Neufeld... Maybe someone should propose Susan? One thing that has been ignored by the general public are the gifted whose needs aren't typically met in local schools....so people who could speak about them - do you know anyone? Then there are special needs - and how home education can support them.... All the different reasons why home education can be beneficial - there should be speakers for all the different reasons, to show the diversity of the movement! If people can write with proposals - maybe it will give them ideas.:001_smile: Joan The irony is that Germany does have a rich tradition in alternate schooling. Montessori schools are popular, Steiner Waldorf schools were in evidence. Most kindergartens (serving ages 3-5) were independent, and often affiliated with a church or philosophical group. Have you read Das Lehrerhassbuch? It came out just as we were leaving Germany around 2006. One of the early chapters focuses on the author's frustration with the school system, with a comment that she wishes homeschooling were an option, because she sees the system as trying to smooth out the differences among children, which make them individuals. The example she uses is Regenbogenfisch (The Rainbow Fish) in which the sparkly fish has to give away the scales that make him beautiful to get the other fish to like him, but if you're not familiar with the story, you can think of the line in The Incredibles: "When everybody's special that means no one is." Another issue is that the fault lines for the interaction of religion and politics is different in Germany than in the US. For example, in Germany, you are a "member" of a church if you pay church tax to that church body. We could not vote in parish elections despite attending church most Sundays. But someone who paid their tax but only visited on Christmas Eve could vote. Germans would consider their schooling quite secular. And yet, there were religion classes (taught by someone certified by the religious body) as part of the school day. This was not seen as a contradiction, even though the students had to pick a religion class or a companion ethics class. Even though religion teachers were paid by the state as teachers. And I wouldn't expect that the bulk of German homeschoolers would be families seeking religious freedom. On the other hand, many of our friends (who were mostly involved in government or law) were astonished by the idea of faith based lobbying or political fund raising entitites. It's just different. And support is one thing, but the different stresses and concerns have to be addressed in lobbying for homeschooling freedoms. But thanks for the reminder to write. I'll try to draft something up this afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Sebastian - I appreciate your insights about Germany. It seems like you have a fair amount of insight about society - maybe since you've lived in and thought about so many different cultures/societies? I hadn't heard of Das Lehrerhassbuch (and can't read German) but I'll see if my friends and contacts have been able to benefit from it. Thanks! Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Sebastian - I appreciate your insights about Germany. It seems like you have a fair amount of insight about society - maybe since you've lived in and thought about so many different cultures/societies? I hadn't heard of Das Lehrerhassbuch (and can't read German) but I'll see if my friends and contacts have been able to benefit from it. Thanks! Joan The context for Lehrerhassbuch was that it was published a couple years after Germany had poorer than expected PISA rankings. (Bad enough that McDonalds had a poster campaign advertising cheeseburgers at "Pisa" prices.) There was a lot of discussion in the press of issues with German schools, including early sorting into career tracks (which was difficult to overcome later on), larger numbers of non-German students in the schools - with issues of religion and language and lower educated parents, many mothers being in the work force - which meant that the model of assigning homework that would be supervised by mothers in the afternoon was outdated, etc. The comment about homeschooling was really only a passing one. The book is mostly about the author's feeling that teachers were barricaded behind a bulwark of "professionalism" with contempt for parents and insulation from the consequences of their failures. On the flip side, however, looms the Abitur. A lot of possible school reforms get grounded on the rocks and shoals of how you would qualify students to attend college if you aren't on an Abitur prep track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readwithem Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I got a response from HSLDA yesterday. She thanked me for writing, and said the GHEC Board is still discussing conference details, and they hope to launch the website (http://www.ghec2012.org) very shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MN Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I got a response from HSLDA yesterday. She thanked me for writing, and said the GHEC Board is still discussing conference details, and they hope to launch the website (http://www.ghec2012.org) very shortly. They also told me that, "two European members of the GHEC committee, Jonas Himmelstrand and Dagmar Neubronner, met with German and other home educators in Hagen recently on this topic." Maybe things are happening? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 The irony is that Germany does have a rich tradition in alternate schooling. Montessori schools are popular, Steiner Waldorf schools were in evidence. Most kindergartens (serving ages 3-5) were independent, and often affiliated with a church or philosophical group. Have you read Das Lehrerhassbuch? It came out just as we were leaving Germany around 2006. One of the early chapters focuses on the author's frustration with the school system, with a comment that she wishes homeschooling were an option, because she sees the system as trying to smooth out the differences among children, which make them individuals. Just looked for this book and it's actually called Das Lehrer-hasser Buch. Sounds interesting! And this is just ridiculous about the HSLDA. :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 I got a response from HSLDA yesterday. She thanked me for writing, and said the GHEC Board is still discussing conference details, and they hope to launch the website (www.ghec2012.org) very shortly. Thank you for writing! They also told me that, "two European members of the GHEC committee, Jonas Himmelstrand and Dagmar Neubronner, met with German and other home educators in Hagen recently on this topic." I'm glad you wrote Julie! It happens though, the Hagen meeting is where I was and where the German home educators got upset. Dagmar is German but the other Germans were not in agreement with her about Berlin. many mothers being in the work force - which meant that the model of assigning homework that would be supervised by mothers in the afternoon was outdated, etc. The comment about homeschooling was really only a passing one. The book is mostly about the author's feeling that teachers were barricaded behind a bulwark of "professionalism" with contempt for parents and insulation from the consequences of their failures. On the flip side, however, looms the Abitur. A lot of possible school reforms get grounded on the rocks and shoals of how you would qualify students to attend college if you aren't on an Abitur prep track. Very interesting about the homework model - but I'm afraid it will just mean that they'll increase the obligatory number of school hours.... Thanks for the other info too! HSLDA. Please write!:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 One more reason I would never join HSLDA. It drives me batty when people assume that other cultures view the world the same way they do. Germany (and any other country) is NOT the United States of America. It has a different governmental system, a different social system, etc. Americans may argue against the German (and other nations') method of testing children and separating them into vocational, apprentice and university bound tracks, but it works for their societies. As an aside, there have been many articles in the US press lately bemoaning the lack of formal apprenticeship programs in the US, as the "everyone should go to college" push has not worked out so well for many people (e.g. not everyone who has showed up was "up" for it). a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 I did get to talk with HSLDA - We discussed the security of Berlin - but disagree about potential problems (and I've encouraged a German person familiar with Berlin to email him) We discussed how having politicians there will or will not change things - and I've encouraged someone familiar with this to write him more concretely... We discussed numbers of people who want to hold vs do not want it held in Berlin - and I've written a separate email naming organizations and individuals... There is the possibility that the meeting will be held in another country - the board is going to discuss it.... I have learned about general funding - here is the report of how money is used... Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Go Joan!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MN Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I'm glad you wrote Julie! It happens though, the Hagen meeting is where I was and where the German home educators got upset. Dagmar is German but the other Germans were not in agreement with her about Berlin. Joan, Help me understand. You know I like you :) and I truly respect that you are not doing this as an armchair critic like most of us :tongue_smilie: I love how your family gets involved. But aren't you saying that there are 2 opinions in Germany, and that HSLDA has (of course) mostly listened to their own membership there? There is so much HSLDA bashing on this thread that I think something about this point is being lost, at least in my own little mind. (I'm a member of HSLDA, so obviously I respect their contribution to homeschooling and it seems highly possible that a large number of potential readers are equally alienated by the direction some posters are taking this thread. Just saying.) So, are you are saying that you want to strengthen the side of the underdog that is losing a local debate (whereas Dagmar & others whom HSLDA surveyed are winning this debate right now)? Are you feeling they don't fully understand the ramifications of their actions, and you are seeing the long-term effects better than they are, even though plenty of locals in Germany are in agreement with HSLDA? Or, are you are truly saying that there is a vast majority that disagrees with these actions, and only a tiny fraction who agree (Dagmar & the surveyed group) within Germany? That would affect how I responded to HSLDA's reply to me. We discussed the security of Berlin - but disagree about potential problems (and I've encouraged a German person familiar with Berlin to email him) We discussed how having politicians there will or will not change things - and I've encouraged someone familiar with this to write him more concretely... We discussed numbers of people who want to hold vs do not want it held in Berlin - and I've written a separate email naming organizations and individuals... There is the possibility that the meeting will be held in another country - the board is going to discuss it.... This sounds like good communication is happening. Yay. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) Hi Julie! I have always respected you too, because I can tell you are really thinking and your questions show that you are really thinking too. So, are you are saying that you want to strengthen the side of the underdog that is losing a local debate (whereas Dagmar & others whom HSLDA surveyed are winning this debate right now)? In a way it is not a local debate at all...there are a few people from both sides talking, but as far as I can tell, most of them are not talking. There is the Global board of 10 members - which has two Germans who are of course agreeing that it should be in Berlin. Then there is a Swede, Mexican, Canadian, South Korean, South African, Philippino/a (not sure if M/F), and 2 American members. They are the ones who have decided it should be in Berlin up to this point. In addition, there are HSLDA members/contacts which I presume are supporting it in Berlin. But there are also HSLDA contacts (not sure if any members or not) who are NOT supporting it in Berlin. Are you feeling they don't fully understand the ramifications of their actions, and you are seeing the long-term effects better than they are, even though plenty of locals in Germany are in agreement with HSLDA? First, there are not that many home educators left in Germany. So we are not talking about huge numbers of people! When you say "plenty" - I cannot give you true numbers about the total HE population and thus percentages by any means - but neither can HSLDA. There are people who will not talk to HSLDA at all. There are people in hiding who won't talk with anyone... ETA - since I didn't address the part where you say "you are seeing the long-term effects better than they are"...I am supporting what German locals "see". I'm not in Germany. I do know what I see in Switzerland where there are some similarities, and where some people already at least 10 years ago were concerned here about what they saw happening with HSLDA in Zurich...the situation in most cantons here has gotten worse (a rare few have gotten better - but not from cases by HSLDA) ...part of the worsening is independent of HSLDA and part of it may be related as they were involved with people here at least 10 years ago already.... Also, the situation in Germany has definitely gotten worse in the past 10 years. What percent of the worseness has been directly or indirectly related to HSLDA is quite difficult to quantify....But they have definitely been involved in a bunch of the cases that lost, so it is hard to say that they are not involved in the worsening of the situation... Or, are you are truly saying that there is a vast majority that disagrees with these actions, and only a tiny fraction who agree (Dagmar & the surveyed group) within Germany? These percentages I cannot give you. I can give you this though. Organizations: There are two main home education organizations in Germany - bvnl.de and Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit (there are other smaller ones). As far as I can tell from emails, bvnl had more members than NB, and bvnl does not support the conference in Berlin. NB is mostly Christian home educators. HSLDA has supported Christians going to court in Germany and all the cases have lost. In Germany there is a fear of parallel societies, which can include Christians that tend to be isolated (this is as far as I can understand not living in the country). A German home educator spoke with a politician who had one time supported her son home educating but has now moved up in rank and no longer supports home ed and this politician says that one of the problems is that HE is seen as religious thing. There are other things which I am not sure if I should say publicly and some things I'm sure I shouldn't say publicly or even privately....but I can PM you with some more info. Joan Edited February 4, 2012 by Joan in Geneva corrections and clarifications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Email sent. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Email sent. Laura Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MN Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) In a way it is not a local debate at all...there are a few people from both sides talking, but as far as I can tell, most of them are not talking. There is the Global board of 10 members - which has two Germans who are of course agreeing that it should be in Berlin. Then there is a Swede, Mexican, Canadian, South Korean, South African, Philippino/a (not sure if M/F), and 2 American members. They are the ones who have decided it should be in Berlin up to this point. In addition, there are HSLDA members/contacts which I presume are supporting it in Berlin. But there are also HSLDA contacts (not sure if any members or not) who are NOT supporting it in Berlin. First, there are not that many home educators left in Germany. So we are not talking about huge numbers of people! Joan, This sounds very complex and I thank you for trying to explain it to a very un-world-traveled Minnesotan. Interestingly, Minnesota has a strong German (and Scandinavian) root (not counting immigration since the 1970s). So I very much can see what you are saying about the different cultures. We tend to be very reserved up here :001_huh: , persistent but reserved :tongue_smilie: And also interestingly, we've been reading Church History in Plain Language at our house and are finishing up the chapters on the denominalization of Christianity, and maybe it's just on my mind but I think I see similar strains of differing opinions -- specifically, there were groups who felt an obligation to try to make their culture reflect their values (for instance the Quakers and the Puritans) because it would be hypocritical and morally defeating not to, vs. groups who felt their values were completely separate from their culture and just wanted the freedom to do their own thing at home. I know that's a huge tangent :tongue_smilie: , but it does make me wonder whether that's what's clashing here -- two sincere groups with deep differences in how they view real moral obligations regarding homeschooling? (As opposed to, say, one group just in it to get sensational newsletter articles out of the deal, as has been said on this thread.) And considering my Germanic half of my ancestry, I can start to visualize the closing up & pulling back that might happen in Germany (we won't mention my other half -- Irish!). Anyways, thoughts are wandering this morning (or this night, in Geneva!). Thanks for putting so much effort into helping me form my response to my previous HSLDA inquiry. I'm hoping your time spent talking me through has also helped other HSLDA members to consider approaching them about this policy, as well. Julie Edited February 4, 2012 by Julie in MN 3 words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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