Classical Comp vs Classical Writing

[AimeeM]

I've read the previous threads on them. I'm interested in WHY you preferred one over the other, or why they worked for your specific learner type.

 

Autumn: 10, reluctant writer (very reluctant; I would peg her at a second grade level writing and spelling), advanced in isolated grammar but doesn't apply it to her writing. I was considering Classical Writing because it includes copy work and grammar reinforcement (although we would also use Seton for grammar).

 

I've heard Classical Comp is more difficult for the parent/teacher and more parent intensive.

 

What say you?

[WTMCassandra]

Honestly, I wouldn't do either. Classical Writing is very complex, especially the grammar. I think it would kill the spirit of a reluctant writer like you describe. I'm not that familiar with Classical Composition, so maybe someone else could speak to that.

 

I think IEW would be a great fit for this student. Pros: Made for reluctant writers. Makes the writing process very black and white. Sneaks in grammar instruction in a non-threatening way. Cons: Expensive. Steep teacher learning curve. Formulaic writing AT FIRST, but at least it's basic competence. To lose the formulaic-ness (not a word, I know), the student has to have several years of it. I taught IEW1 to a small class and prepared to teach IEW2 so am at least familiar with it.

 

I use Classical Writing with my own children, but I am strong in this area, and so are they, skillwise. I don't do their grammar but use Our Mother Tongue and then will use Analytical Grammar. I toss in helpful snippets from IEW now and then.

 

Another option that I think works well for reluctant writers, especially if the mother also needs lots of hand-holding, is WriteShop.

Edited December 21, 2011 by WTMCassandra

[AimeeM]

I should have mentioned that IEW is off the table. I'm not a fan of it and have seen it used. It requires intensive teacher training. With a medically needy toddler and another on the way, I'm looking to lighten the teacher load, not intensify it. Frankly, even if it kills her writing spirit, I'm looking for something effective, regardless of the likable level. Lol. She's a science/math type of gal; she's never enjoyed writing. Sometimes you have to do things you don't care for and that's the point we're at with writing programs. In prepping her to return to Catholic school next year or the year after, she needs to do it.

I'm sorry - I was vague in my question I think. Sleepy time :tongue_smilie:

Honestly, I wouldn't do either. Classical Writing is very complex, especially the grammar. I think it would kill the spirit of a reluctant writer like you describe. I'm not that familiar with Classical Composition, so maybe someone else could speak to that.

 

I think IEW would be a great fit for this student. Pros: Made for reluctant writers. Makes the writing process very black and white. Sneaks in grammar instruction in a non-threatening way. Cons: Expensive. Steep teacher learning curve. Formulaic writing AT FIRST, but at least it's basic competence. To lose the formulaic-ness (not a word, I know), the student has to have several years of it. I taught IEW1 to a small class and prepared to teach IEW2 so am at least familiar with it.

 

I use Classical Writing with my own children, but I am strong in this area, and so are they, skillwise. I don't do their grammar but use Our Mother Tongue and then will use Analytical Grammar. I toss in helpful snippets from IEW now and then.

 

Another option that I think works well for reluctant writers, especially if the mother also needs lots of hand-holding, is WriteShop.

[lewelma]

We prefer CW because is has less religious content than CC.

[AimeeM]

Is CC protestant leaning?

We prefer CW because is has less religious content than CC.

[HeidiKC]

I don't know how much help I might be, but my ds12 is taking his second year of Classical Composition. He skipped Fable (on recommendation of instructor, Mrs. Selby - author's wife) and began with Narrative. This year he is doing Chreia/Maxim. I am not involved with the instruction of this.

 

We are doing IEW SWI-B just once weekly or less. I bought this last year before deciding to continue with CC, and hadn't really meant to double-up on writing programs! But I wanted to try it. The SWI is the DVD directed at the student. Apparently it doesn't cover everything in the full-course, but I THINK you can buy "part 2" or whatever it's called if you want the rest. Not sure on that.

 

ANYWAY...I think CC would be SO much more parent/teacher intensive than the IEW SWI-B course. The IEW is completely painless. We just sit down and watch the DVD and are told what to do. I'm sure it would probably be best if I had the complete instructor's set of DVDs, but I guess I don't know what I'm missing and it is working for us. It is MUCH less writing than CC. This year in Chreia his papers are eight paragraphs. He usually does one every week or two. So far the SWI papers are super-short. We are on lesson 7 (out of 16 or so, I think) and finally have moved from one to three paragraphs.

 

My ds is definitely learning a lot more from CC, but he is a pretty decent writer already and his grammar is very good. The IEW SWI has been very easy to use and hasn't been slightly teacher intensive for me. My son gets what he needs to know from the DVD. So if you're leaning away from IEW because of feeling it might be too teacher-intensive, you might consider the SWI course. I read a lot about how you shouldn't use just that and should be the TWSS as well, but then someone pointed out that somewhere overseas (forget where), the SWI is marketed and sold as a standalone product and I think maybe the TWSS isn't even available to them? Can't remember the details, but that convinced me to try it (and it was the cost that was also a big issue for me), and I'm very glad I did! But maybe there are other reasons you don't like IEW. Just thought I'd pass along our experience with the two programs.

[AimeeM]

Thanks. I'm not interested in IEW; not only because I believe it to be teacher intensive, but because I've seen it used and I've seen the results. I'm not particularly impressed by it. I know many others love it and I think that's great. It isn't an option for us though.

I don't know how much help I might be, but my ds12 is taking his second year of Classical Composition. He skipped Fable (on recommendation of instructor, Mrs. Selby - author's wife) and began with Narrative. This year he is doing Chreia/Maxim. I am not involved with the instruction of this.

 

We are doing IEW SWI-B just once weekly or less. I bought this last year before deciding to continue with CC, and hadn't really meant to double-up on writing programs! But I wanted to try it. The SWI is the DVD directed at the student. Apparently it doesn't cover everything in the full-course, but I THINK you can buy "part 2" or whatever it's called if you want the rest. Not sure on that.

 

ANYWAY...I think CC would be SO much more parent/teacher intensive than the IEW SWI-B course. The IEW is completely painless. We just sit down and watch the DVD and are told what to do. I'm sure it would probably be best if I had the complete instructor's set of DVDs, but I guess I don't know what I'm missing and it is working for us. It is MUCH less writing than CC. This year in Chreia his papers are eight paragraphs. He usually does one every week or two. So far the SWI papers are super-short. We are on lesson 7 (out of 16 or so, I think) and finally have moved from one to three paragraphs.

 

My ds is definitely learning a lot more from CC, but he is a pretty decent writer already and his grammar is very good. The IEW SWI has been very easy to use and hasn't been slightly teacher intensive for me. My son gets what he needs to know from the DVD. So if you're leaning away from IEW because of feeling it might be too teacher-intensive, you might consider the SWI course. I read a lot about how you shouldn't use just that and should be the TWSS as well, but then someone pointed out that somewhere overseas (forget where), the SWI is marketed and sold as a standalone product and I think maybe the TWSS isn't even available to them? Can't remember the details, but that convinced me to try it (and it was the cost that was also a big issue for me), and I'm very glad I did! But maybe there are other reasons you don't like IEW. Just thought I'd pass along our experience with the two programs.

[Cleopatra]

We're using CW and I have reviewed CC. I would say that CW is more parent/teacher intensive: there are three books you're dealing with instead of two and I always feel like I'm flipping between books. It's easy now that I've gotten used to it but at the time, it was a little bit of a learning curve.

 

Personally, I think CW is overall the better program. While I like the progression of CC, CW is more "meaty" and the manner used to cover the skills really crafts the writing process. CC, IMO, is weaker; it even uses one "hook" in particular that reminds me of IEW. :tongue_smilie:

 

That said, I do like the way CC introduces certain aspects of the progymnasmata a little earlier than CW and has shorter writing models that are easier for the students to deal with. You could always shorten the model in CW or choose your own though.

 

I think CW can be helpful for reluctant writers. It sequentially exposes them to skills that will allow them to write well, so they don't feel overwhelmed.

 

My dd loves CW and I am thrilled with the progress of her writing. I think she would be a natural writer but she is not very ordered and I feel CW has supplied the logical instruction necessary to have her producing well written, constructed and thought out writing projects.

 

Both CW and CC are good programs so I don't think you can go wrong with either one. I did a compare/contrast with another mom on the boards (who is using CC) so if you like, I can forward the e-mail I sent her. It's much more detailed than what I've just written, so if you're interested, just PM me.

 

HTH a little! :001_smile:

Edited December 21, 2011 by Cleopatra
Additional information

[HeidiKC]

Is CC protestant leaning?

 

I think you might notice it was Protestant rather than Catholic, but nothing problematic (that I've noticed, anyway). For the Chreia stage, each lesson begins with a quote by a famous person (presidents, etc.). The student writes about this quote, and they are given "testimonies" for each quote, which are basically statements in support of the quote. So flr lesson 3 here is the quote: "There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses." Andrew Jackson

 

There are four "testimonies" for the quote. Here's one: "The State is our neighbors; our neighbors are the State." Emerson

 

So another one of the testimonies is a Bible verse: Matthew 5:29. Not each lesson uses a Bible verse to support the main quote, but some do. The guide says that testimony should be from well-known individuals, and that a biblical testimony is ideal but that students should recognize that not all audiences would recognize the Bible as a source of authority. At least in the Chreia book, this is pretty much the extent of anything Christian. I'm Catholic and haven't found anything objectionable.

[AimeeM]

Thank you ladies!

I'm leaning towards CW.

If a child is naturally advanced in grammar (isolated), although behind in writing; would CW provide sufficient grammar to not need another grammar program?

If grammar is still needed, we would use Seton; but the level grammar instruction she is at, is much higher than her writing level, so I'm not sure...

[Cleopatra]

Thank you ladies!

I'm leaning towards CW.

If a child is naturally advanced in grammar (isolated), although behind in writing; would CW provide sufficient grammar to not need another grammar program?

If grammar is still needed, we would use Seton; but the level grammar instruction she is at, is much higher than her writing level, so I'm not sure...

 

My dd is almost through R&S6 now. When she was in Aesop, she was way ahead in grammar but now that she's in Homer, the grammar in CW has leapfrogged ahead. Basically we learn the grammar in Homer because now it's mostly new (there are explanations), and apply them to the Analysis & Imitation exercises. I don't worry that she hasn't learned it in R&S yet; I assume we'll encounter it at some point. So, to answer your question, if you're planning to start with Homer, I would say the grammar instruction would be challenging. We just covered verbals: participles, gerunds and infinitives and we're 1/2 way through Homer B. You don't have to have the grammar in Homer line up with what you are studying. I would just teach the grammar from CW if your dd doesn't know it or treat it as practice if she does, while moving through your grammar program at the pace you think is necessary. As for using CW as a stand-alone grammar program, I don't think I'd advise it unless you are a grammar expert yourself. Its explanations, while excellent, are at a higher level and are not always that clear for a young student; you would need to "translate" at times. Also I don't think it provides quite enough practice. If CW itself suggests using another grammar program, I think I'd follow their advice. :001_smile:

[AimeeM]

Because she is such a reluctant writer (and frankly, she is very far behind) we would start with Aesop; which is why I wondered if we should just use the grammar in it as review, without using a different grammar program?

My dd is almost through R&S6 now. When she was in Aesop, she was way ahead in grammar but now that she's in Homer, the grammar in CW has leapfrogged ahead. Basically we learn the grammar in Homer because now it's mostly new (there are explanations), and apply them to the Analysis & Imitation exercises. I don't worry that she hasn't learned it in R&S yet; I assume we'll encounter it at some point. So, to answer your question, if you're planning to start with Homer, I would say the grammar instruction would be challenging. We just covered verbals: participles, gerunds and infinitives and we're 1/2 way through Homer B. You don't have to have the grammar in Homer line up with what you are studying. I would just teach the grammar from CW if your dd doesn't know it or treat it as practice if she does, while moving through your grammar program at the pace you think is necessary. As for using CW as a stand-alone grammar program, I don't think I'd advise it unless you are a grammar expert yourself. Its explanations, while excellent, are at a higher level and are not always that clear for a young student; you would need to "translate" at times. Also I don't think it provides quite enough practice. If CW itself suggests using another grammar program, I think I'd follow their advice. :001_smile:

[Cleopatra]

Because she is such a reluctant writer (and frankly, she is very far behind) we would start with Aesop; which is why I wondered if we should just use the grammar in it as review, without using a different grammar program?

 

Hmmmm ..... in that case, I would almost skip the grammar Aesop and use your grammar program. Aesop is really very simple; I only used the grammar exercises I thought beneficial (there were a few at this level). I put more time and concentration into working with synonyms. This was a huge help in hindsight. I also chose three vocabulary words (words of the week), had her find and write the definitions, write a sentence for each and verbally give me 2 more sentences for each, stretching this over the week. The words I chose were advanced and then I would get her to use one word per writing project (now she has to use three). These two exercises REALLY helped with making it easy for her to write something in her own words, and the level of the vocabulary she uses now is excellent.

[AimeeM]

Hmmmm ..... in that case, I would almost skip the grammar Aesop and use your grammar program. Aesop is really very simple; I only used the grammar exercises I thought beneficial (there were a few at this level). I put more time and concentration into working with synonyms. This was a huge help in hindsight. I also chose three vocabulary words (words of the week), had her find and write the definitions, write a sentence for each and verbally give me 2 more sentences for each, stretching this over the week. The words I chose were advanced and then I would get her to use one word per writing project (now she has to use three). These two exercises REALLY helped with making it easy for her to write something in her own words, and the level of the vocabulary she uses now is excellent.

Sounds fantastic! Thank you so much!

[Joy at Home]

Since you plan on having dd attend school in a year or two, have you thought about a program like WWW? I love CW, but with your goals maybe having her focus on more modern writing would make sense. Do you know how they handle writing at the Catholic school you're looking at? Just a thought . . .

 

Lisa

[Cleopatra]

Sounds fantastic! Thank you so much!

 

You're welcome! :001_smile:

[....]

Since you plan on having dd attend school in a year or two, have you thought about a program like WWW? I love CW, but with your goals maybe having her focus on more modern writing would make sense. Do you know how they handle writing at the Catholic school you're looking at? Just a thought . . .

 

Lisa

 

:iagree: I would not use the Progymnasmata if they're going back to school.

 

We use Classical Composition. I'm not sure if you're still interested in this program, but I could give a quick review. I really like it. My 10 yro is towards the end of Fable Stage and she enjoys it so much. It is 100% teacher-intensive. In Fable Stage, they are doing multi-level outlining. It is challenging (I have to keep looking in the TM :tongue_smilie:). We do a lot of thesaurus work. My daughter is very good with the thesaurus now.

 

I'm not sure what writing level my 10 yro is at...because I can't grasp writing levels (I just don't know anything about teaching writing). But, she is able to outline, write paragraphs, use a thesaurus, etc. Here are some samples from her Classical Composition Student Book (these are sentences she has written).

 

Tossing his net into the beautiful ocean, he caught a spectacular amount of fish.

 

He watched them dancing about in the net.

 

The rabbit plunged into a deep sleep.

 

Here is a sentence she wrote that seems awkward to me (so you can see her mistakes, too):

 

Patient but on track takes first place. (no comma and it's awkward)

 

 

 

We spend a lot of time talking about words...tone...how different words make the reader feel...descriptions...etc.

 

 

She's 10/4th grade. Not sure if any of that helps you. I looked at CW and it looked great, but we already do soooo much language arts stuff. I didn't want the kid to pack her bags and run away from home because of LA overload. :tongue_smilie:

Edited December 21, 2011 by starrbuck12

[JadeOrchidSong]

:iagree: I would not use the Progymnasmata if they're going back to school.

 

We use Classical Composition. I'm not sure if you're still interested in this program, but I could give a quick review. I really like it. My 10 yro is towards the end of Fable Stage and she enjoys it so much. It is 100% teacher-intensive. In Fable Stage, they are doing multi-level outlining. It is challenging (I have to keep looking in the TM :tongue_smilie:). We do a lot of thesaurus work. My daughter is very good with the thesaurus now.

 

I'm not sure what writing level my 10 yro is at...because I can't grasp writing levels (I just don't know anything about teaching writing). But, she is able to outline, write paragraphs, use a thesaurus, etc. Here are some samples from her Classical Composition Student Book (these are sentences she has written).

 

Tossing his net into the beautiful ocean, he caught a spectacular amount of fish.

 

He watched them dancing about in the net.

 

The rabbit plunged into a deep sleep.

 

Here is a sentence she wrote that seems awkward to me (so you can see her mistakes, too):

 

Patient but on track takes first place. (no comma and it's awkward)

 

 

 

We spend a lot of time talking about words...tone...how different words make the reader feel...descriptions...etc.

 

 

She's 10/4th grade. Not sure if any of that helps you. I looked at CW and it looked great, but we already do soooo much language arts stuff. I didn't want the kid to pack her bags and run away from home because of LA overload. :tongue_smilie:

This is very helpful info about CC. I am planning to use IEW, but will move on to another program. This will help me choose one that can work for us.

[siloam]

I like CW because it teaches you how to use language. I was the sort of kid who would know a sentence was not worded right, but I couldn't figure out any other way to put it. I would just sit and stare and literally the only thing I could think of was the sentence that didn't work.

 

CW teaches you how to do synonym substations, change tense, change number, use quotes, change person, move clauses. These are skills many may naturally have. I didn't. I may have learned them at one time, but never used them consistently enough to own them.

 

CW both teaches them and uses them long enough that they become second nature. That is the heart of CW for me.

 

Heather

[RootAnn]

If you were planning to start with CW Aesop (level-wise), have you thought about doing Writing Tales instead? It is basically the same as Aesop, but more fun and gentle for those kids that are allergic to pencils like my oldest dd.

 

I thought it was enough grammar in WT1 and did not use another program. However, it is grammar-light for some people, so they add onto it. I have added a grammar program onto WT2. You can do WT at its' suggested pace (one level per year) or faster (covering 2 levels in a year). I think it starts off gently & works the level of writing up gradually. (The models at the beginning of WT2 are actually a little shorter than those you ended WT1 with, but they ramp back up fairly quickly.)

 

I'm planning on putting my oldest into CW Homer A from WT2. The vets on here indicate it should go fine. From reading my newly-arrived Homer Core, it looks like it'll be ok at first. (Although I'm a bit intimidated by some of the skills taught!)

 

I'm not an IEW-fan either, so it was not an option here.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide!