Here's what I don't get about the "keeper of the home" thing

[Robin in Tx]

It seems to me Reya is pointing out ways to be more efficient (which I'm all for), but your focus is more on building community and service.

 

This is true, and this is my point!!

 

To the people I know who raise their daughters to be "keepers at home" (which is not good terminology, imo, and I don't hear this phrase often... I'm talking in general about people who are raising their daughters NOT to pursue college and career), then what *I* am talking about is precisely what their objectives are. I haven't read the entire thread, but if what Reya is talking about is how to streamline housekeeping, etc., well... anyone can do that. That is not what "keepers at home" is all aobut or should be reduced to. So, if we're going to talk about raising daughters to not pursue college and career, at least in the circles in which I run, then we should be talking about what sort of work they really are preparing for (and not just housework which everyone has to either do or hire out no matter what their work is). And then we can evaluate that work against the sort of work that a college/career bound woman prepares for.

 

Like I said to Reya, I really don't see the difference between this (raising daughters to be "keepers at home" thus foregoing college) and a son preparing for vocational work (and foregoing college). In either case, college does not directly prepare them for their life's work, therefore there is valid argument for allowing the young adult to get on with their work instead of spending their young adult years preparing for and attending college.

[mommaduck]

Sounds like you are talking about hyper-patriarchialism or patriocentricity. There are those of us that are raising our daughters to believe that their primary ministry, should they marry and have children, will be their home for that time. However, unlike the patriocentrists, are realistic enough to believe that even at home a higher education can be useful, that not all women will marry, that they may one day be left to support themselves, and that there is life after children...thus we still encourage them to think about what they would want to do and to become educated.

[Robin in Tx]

Sounds like you are talking about hyper-patriarchialism or patriocentricity. There are those of us that are raising our daughters to believe that their primary ministry, should they marry and have children, will be their home for that time. However, unlike the patriocentrists, are realistic enough to believe that even at home a higher education can be useful, that not all women will marry, that they may one day be left to support themselves, and that there is life after children...thus we still encourage them to think about what they would want to do and to become educated.

 

 

Again, you are reducing this to housework and childrearing. Most of the women I know like this are consistently involved in ministry and church work beyond that.

 

Some do pursue further education, but usually from home and usually in a non-traditinal way, because while they do value education, they don't value it above their actual work.

 

Most of these women are extremely resouceful and could easily support themselves if need be.

 

I'm preparing my dd for college, so I'm more in camp with you, but I do think the other side is being misrepresented (or misunderstood) in this conversation.

[mommaduck]

I don't see it reduced to housework and childbearing. Even the Patriocentrist will encourage church work, volunteering, WAHM, selling at local market, etc. The point being that it's something they can work around their family or to include their family. And I agree that some of the education is non-traditional.

 

 

Guess, I'm just puzzled as to the point. We seem to be talking circles...unless the issue is people just don't like the term or are making broad assumptions as to what the term means.

[Robin in Tx]

We seem to be talking circles...unless the issue is people just don't like the term or are making broad assumptions as to what the term means.

 

 

I think it's the broad assumptions as to what the term means. To some it really does mean, "Check your brains at the door because you're going to spend the rest of your life changing diapers, knitting socks."

 

My point is that all the families I know who are raising their daughters to a vocation of service (not college/career) view that vocation as larger and in addition to motherhood. Just like a career woman's work would be in addition to her motherhood. The vocation of service is not "life after rasing children." It is one's work - before, during and after raising children.

 

I think maybe I'm doing a poor job explaining this. I just don't know anyone who is raising their daughter to be just a wife and mother. They put a high priority on that, but it is much, much more than that... and the actual service/work that they are preparing for is emphasized and expemplified throughout their adolescent years, in addition to household skill training. I just don't know anyone who is training their daughters to sit around eat bon bons during their idle time at home with the babies.

 

So I guess my general response to the original question is that just because someone isn't pursuing college doesn't mean that they don't value strong academics, or a good education. It means that they have a vocation in mind that college doesn't prepare them for.

 

I'm very torn on this, because while I am preparing my dd for college and feel strongly about the value of a college degree, I find myself hoping she doesn't need it, and I find myself enjoying the company of these other families and women much more. They are more genuine, more mature, more relaxed, more compassionate and understanding, more in tune with the needs of their families and friends and community. Maybe it's because they have the mental energy to be all these things. Maybe it's because they have different values. Maybe it's because they decided to grow up and be adults. But one thing is for certain... they really are much, much more content with their lives than most of my working friends. I can say that with all honesty. It's the woman who has bought into the idea that she can have it all who wakes up one day realizing that for everything she does, there is an opportunity cost associated with it - she can have a little bit of different parts, but she can't fully enjoy everything that is offered to her. (I'm saying this not in direct response to your comments but in response to Reya's comment about people wondering why they didn't end up where they had hoped). So, if I send my dd to college it will be to get what I consider an important qualifier under her belt and to enhance her education. It will not be to prepare her for a career, unless she chooses to do that on her own. I wouldn't anymore set her on an intentinal career path than Reya would set her child on a vocational path.

[Kay in Cal]

I need to add a comment from my SAHD dh:

 

"I totally disagree! I don't know how to do these things (homemaking), and I'm pretty bad at these things! I don't think they should be taught to the exclusion of academics, but I feel like I was never taught "life skills" and wish I had been."

 

So, he thinks *everyone* should learn homemaking skills in a very intentional fashion--but not just women/girls. I don't think he ever thought he'd be a stay-at-home-dad who homeschools his children, and his mom did everything for him as a child. She's a "super homemaker", but didn't pass those skills along, ya know? Dh's sister is a banker (major executive) and she just pays people to clean her apartment. Neither of them every learned to cook/clean/etc, and dh has had to play catch-up for the last 6 years.

[mommaduck]

Robin, Sounds like were more on the same page ;)

[Danestress]

Okay I didn't read this into the OP. ALso, just because one has formal instruction in it doesn't mean that one is giving up academic instruction. And what do you mean by formal instruction? When I think of that, I think of jr high home ec and highschool adult management courses. I'm teaching my children, I'm sure I could count it towards school, but I don't. It's simply part of life around here.

 

This is from the original post

 

"I don't understand why there would ever be an "either or" when the choice is an academically vigorious educations or homekeeping skills. It seems to me that anyone could have both, and quite easily."

 

The post was in reference to an earilier thread about whether people prepare daughters for college if they are primarily training her to be a keeper at home. There are periodic threads like that on the board, so that's what I was thinking about. I guess that makes it hard for people who are newer and don't necessarily remember those threads, though there was one quite recently.

 

I've never implied that it's wrong to spend time training daughters (or sons) to do home keeping jobs. I think it's essential life skill for both. I just question the wisdom of saying "She doesn't need college, or she doesn't need calculus, or she doesn't need to read great books" based solely on the fact that she is a 'she.'

[Danestress]

I need to add a comment from my SAHD dh:

 

"I totally disagree!

 

Actually, based on what your post says, I think he totally *agrees* with me. I believe everyone should learn these skills but that they are not so hard and requiring so much time that it's a reason to forgo other traditionally academic instruction. I believe I said that one could (and should) learn BOTH. I find myself perplexed at posts asking whether people are preparing daughters to go to college "or" to be keepers at home - that kind of thing.

 

Even apart from believing my sons need to know how to do housework, care for the yard, and cook, I simply don't want to have to do all those things when I have able-bodied other people living in my home. So I am training them both for their good AND mine. But I imagine that will still leave plenty of room for college prep in our schedule, and I think your husband wants your boys to look at college too - not to end up in a "keepers" curricula that discourages advanced education.

[Myrtle]

 

I don't understand why there would ever be an "either or" when the choice is an academically vigorious educations or homekeeping skills. It seems to me that anyone could have both, and quite easily.

 

What group of people is doing this?

 

I'm trying to google this and what I'm finding is a www.keepersofthehome.com which is a Christian organization that offers support to adult women but also offers some activities for girls---once a week after school activities.

 

There is a big disclaimer on the keepersofthehome site saying they are not to be confused with Keepers at home which is a curriculum for girls that can be found at keepersofthefaith. But when I went to that website they only offer K8 material and it all just looks like typical stuff.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

What group of people is doing this?

 

I'm trying to google this and what I'm finding is a www.keepersofthehome.com which is a Christian organization that offers support to adult women but also offers some activities for girls---once a week after school activities.

 

There is a big disclaimer on the keepersofthehome site saying they are not to be confused with Keepers at home which is a curriculum for girls that can be found at keepersofthefaith. But when I went to that website they only offer K8 material and it all just looks like typical stuff.

 

I thought this was what the OP was about, the curriculum and formal instruction. Not the either/or stuff.

[Danestress]

I thought this was what the OP was about, the curriculum and formal instruction. Not the either/or stuff.

 

Well, whatever I said, I guess I said it badly.

 

I was actually thinking about the posts along the line of "are you going to prepare your daughter for college OR train her to be a keeper of the home." I thought I was clear that I think home-keeping is a good and useful service and that I wasn't putting it down, I was merely commenting on why one can't learn both how to keep a home AND perpare for and go to college. But I should have known better, lol.

[Kay in Cal]

Lol! I just think he disagrees about the "not so hard" part... not that there shouldn't be acadmics as well. He finds housekeeping VERY hard. Science, math, writing, teaching, not so much. But he can be reduced to a small pile of jelly by a large pile of laundry.

 

But yes, I think if he had more training as a child, he wouldn't find it all so challenging today. And yes, he expects our kids (including girls if we ever have any) to be headed to college...

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Well, whatever I said, I guess I said it badly.

 

I was actually thinking about the posts along the line of "are you going to prepare your daughter for college OR train her to be a keeper of the home." I thought I was clear that I think home-keeping is a good and useful service and that I wasn't putting it down, I was merely commenting on why one can't learn both how to keep a home AND perpare for and go to college. But I should have known better, lol.

 

Nah, girl, you didn't do anything wrong. I just misunderstood. I was just explaining why I answered the way I did. I know there have been threads like that recently, but when I read the phrase "keepers at home" or "keepers of the home" or "managers of the home" and such, I just automatically thinking of the formal curriculum.

 

Others have said in the past that it simply isn't that hard keeping house, and they don't know why anyone would need a book or formal training to do it. I always just shrug and figure there's a secret key I'll find someday that will reveal the mysteries of just how simple it is. LOL Until then... well, there aren't any dishes in the sink and I did dust last week. :001_smile:

[Kelli in TN]

What group of people is doing this?

 

I'm trying to google this and what I'm finding is a www.keepersofthehome.com which is a Christian organization that offers support to adult women but also offers some activities for girls---once a week after school activities.

 

There is a big disclaimer on the keepersofthehome site saying they are not to be confused with Keepers at home which is a curriculum for girls that can be found at keepersofthefaith. But when I went to that website they only offer K8 material and it all just looks like typical stuff.

 

When I think of this mindset to which Danestress is refering I think of the old high school curriculum written by Lynda Coats and Robin Scarlata (now Sampson) called Far Above Rubies. I actually owned it with the intention of using it with my daughters. At one time I was all into this 'training them up to marry and make babies" mindset. I wised up, sold the whole set on ebay and started preparing my daughters for whatever their life may hold.

 

The curriculum focused on homemaking skills, some that everyone needs and some that only Christian hippies on the homestead would need. It was supposed to be all inclusive except for math, but it used a lot of unit study material that I would consider to be upper elementary/middle school level.

 

I think one would struggle mightily in college after completing that curriculum for high school. But that's okay, because the graduate would be ready to get married and make babies.

 

I say all this with some sarcasm. I really don't take issue with marrying young, starting a family young, etc. I just hate to see girls pigeonholed into that life starting when they are 14 years old or so. It is just so narrow.

[Fourmother]

I really don't take issue with marrying young, starting a family young, etc. I just hate to see girls pigeonholed into that life starting when they are 14 years old or so. It is just so narrow.

 

Hey Kelli (and anyone else who could help), could you answer some questions for me?

 

--Is there a larger "keeper at home" (KAH) community or just individual churches and families that subscribe to this school of thought? (I'm not talking about FLDS or anything like that. Just the average church.)

 

--How do they ensure that girls marry young? Are matches formally or informally arranged? What kind of men are seen as ideal husbands for these young women?

 

--What happens to girls who don't marry at 18 or so? Do they remain the financial responsibility of their parents? Are they allowed to work until they marry since they won't go to college?

 

--What happens in the event of a divorce? Are women encouraged/allowed to work outside the home at this point?

 

I know these might sound like dumb questions, but they really are sincere. When I was growing up my mother worked as a nurse, then my parents started their own business. She taught my brother and me to do housework. My father taught me to cut the grass, change the oil in my car, etc. The KAH philosophy was never preached in any church I ever attended. I'm trying to understand how a strict interpretation of it works in a modern context.

[Colleen]

My tech issues are (apparently) solved (yee haw!) but I've been away for a few days. I'm popping in for an hour to browse, but it's just too hard to jump in to interesting, lengthy conversations like this. Can't y'all just talk about vacuums for a while so I can catch up?;)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Can't y'all just talk about vacuums for a while so I can catch up?;)

 

I'm training my dd to use a Dyson. :D

 

:leaving:

[Colleen]

I'm training my dd to use a Dyson. :D

 

Now, Pam, don't make me come after you with my Miele....!:tongue_smilie:

[datmama4]

IMHO...

 

While we don't spend excessive amounts of time training our children (sons as well as a daughter) to learn the homemaking skills, we do feel it will help to make the "living on their own" transition a little smoother or perhaps just quicker.

 

When I met my now-hubby, he had already lived on his own 12 years and certainly knew how to cook, do laundry, clean, etc. I really value those skills in him -- since I'm not working outside the home, I feel it's my duty to take on those tasks, but it sure is nice when I'm pressed for time or going through one of those busy periods and can say, "Can you make supper tonight?" and he not only "can" do it but can do it WELL.

 

Our sons, being old enough, are the primary laundry-doers in our house right now. They also do the more "manly" chores with my hubby (LOL) but are learning the basic, all-around chores that keep the household running smoothly. A little here, a little there, and possibly there won't be that moment of panic when they're on their own in the future.

 

I do agree, though, that it shouldn't be an all-or-nothing thing (academics v. keeping a home). After all, if they don't learn the academic end of things, who will homeschool THEIR kids? <grin>

 

Lynda

[Gwen in VA]

Hey Kelli (and anyone else who could help), could you answer some questions for me?

 

--Is there a larger "keeper at home" (KAH) community or just individual churches and families that subscribe to this school of thought? (I'm not talking about FLDS or anything like that. Just the average church.)

 

--How do they ensure that girls marry young? Are matches formally or informally arranged? What kind of men are seen as ideal husbands for these young women?

 

--What happens to girls who don't marry at 18 or so? Do they remain the financial responsibility of their parents? Are they allowed to work until they marry since they won't go to college?

 

--What happens in the event of a divorce? Are women encouraged/allowed to work outside the home at this point?

 

.

 

Look at the Vision Forum website. There is a whole culture of people who are very much in favor of training women to be exclusively "keepers of the home." Various churches are loosely affiliated with VF (search the webite for 'family-integrated churches"), and most if not all of them would probably favor this approach. (I am familiar with only a few of the churches; I shouldn't generalize.)

 

The VF website certainly favors girls living at home until they are married, whether that be two years or thirty. They live under the roof and protection of their fathers until marriage. I know some "KAH" girls who do work part-time, but in the church we were part of, the ideal was to have the post-high school girls babysit and help other families in the church community on a volunteer basis until their marriage.

 

(My dd is off at college, which is one of the many reasons we left our family-intergrated VF church.)

 

I hope i'm not offending anyone; this is our experience, and I really shouldn't generalize. Vision Forum seems to be the common bond of the "KAH" families that we know.