Math Mammoth 1st Grade Compared to 2nd-6th

[jer2911mom]

Hi,

 

We are using MM1A right now and after reading how MM teaches things step-by-step and so clearly, I feel like we're missing something. I feel like if my dd7 had not had RightStart A and now RSB, she would feel even more overwhelmed being taught on one page how to find sums or missing addends, and then on the next page being expected to answer orally as if she had had time to memorize them. (I'm talking about the oral sections with the little blue squares you don't write in. There is no visual representation/work to help them in these sections.) I'm probably not saying this clearly, but what I mean is there seems to not be much work partitioning numbers before they are expected to already grasp it. I'm just surprised at the pace and it feels like there is a lot of foundation building that is missing?

 

I've read a bunch of reviews where people seem to not like the 1st grade level as well as the others. I guess I'm looking for some reassurance that this gets better? I really can't see where I could have had my dd start with this program after a basic K program and have it make much sense to her. RightStart has prepared her pretty well, but she still feels like she hasn't had time to really learn what is being asked of her. I'm having her use the abacus to figure out the answers. It feels like MM is trying to teach in a few weeks what RS took a couple of years to cover.

 

Do the 2nd-6th grade levels lay the foundation better, or do they proceed at this pace? Am I off-base here?

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[justLisa]

We so badly tried to stick with MM. DS suffered through it 1st, and I did supplement and rewrite some. We started using it this year in 2nd, and DD the 1a but she was NOT having it. We finally switched to Singapore and it is just SO much nicer to look at. Same method as MM but better execution IMO. DS actually thanked me for it LOL!

 

I don't know what it is about MM. There's just something missing for us. So I guess I'm saying no, if you don't like it now I don't really think you'll like it later on if you are speaking of the layout, presentation

 

ETA: In Singapore, there is a text book and workbook and the HIG is helpful though I don't use it much because we kind of "know" how to teach this way and I pull it out if I feel stuck somewhere. The textbook is in color, and gives walk through examples, and some problems. We actually don't do all of these on paper only if needed. Then the workbook is black and white for practice. We go over the textbook lesson, then I keep it open for him to use as reference while doing the workbook. The corresponding workbook exercises are very clearly stated with each lesson in textbook at the bottom of the page.

 

I know MM is supposed to be "self teaching" with the teaching on the page iwth the work, however this is SO NOT the case for us LOL. DS never was able to look at the examples and figure it out.

Edited November 2, 2011 by 425lisamarie

[hmschooling]

I really liked 3a/b much better than 1a. I do know that you are expected to work with your child at their pace, use the Soft Pac, use the worksheet generator and Internet links if needed or desired, and help them practice the facts. I always found there was plenty of practice and a wonderful variety to boot. Use the tools provided and it's totally customizable.

[Mama2Many4]

We tried again and again to love MM. It was not student led learning like they would have you believe. Unless your child is a math genius, they are not going to like it or do well with it. Heck, even I have problems following it. It's just not set up well. We ditched it and couldn't be happier.

[tntgoodwin]

Dd5 is doing 1A and seems to really enjoy it...no idea what the later grades are like.

[lailasmum]

I don't know about later grades but my dd is doing MM1a after we seemed to just get nowhere with MEP and MUS. We started MUS Beta then realized she really didn't understand it.

 

I have noticed the same thing with the oral sections of MM but it seems to be balanced out by the next pages which are often simpler again. I just came to the conclusion that it was to offer something for children of different maths abilities. MM does seem to be working for us though.

 

We have singapore too but it doesn't offer enough repetition for my dd so we have done some chunks of it and then done a section of MM to get lots more practice.

 

I am not sure how she would have taken to MM without having done the MEP/MUS before.

Edited November 2, 2011 by lailasmum

[desertmum]

I want to hear all about this because I was thinking of switching to MM after finishing SM Essential Math for K.

[boscopup]

Hmmm... We didn't have the problem you're talking about. I thought there were more problems in 1A than we needed. We ended up skipping the subtraction chapter after doing all the missing addend stuff, since it was the same thing. :D

 

I just looked back at 1A to see what you're talking about. They have them work through ALL the sums of 5, for example, then on the same page, they do the oral drill. The child can look up at the previous section they just completed and see pictorially and the actual numbers what the answer is. Are you letting your child use that previous section? I always did, and my son learned his facts from just doing MM. We didn't have to drill facts until multiplication, because there was so much practice in MM. I always let him look at the previous sections for answers though. That helps him learn - it's kind of like using a multiplication table until your multiplication facts are solid.

 

I think MM takes the kids step by step through each thing pretty well. We did need to use base 10 blocks for the part where they go over 10. You can always add in manipulatives whenever your child needs them. In that missing addend section, they have pictorial examples of how to do 0 and 5, 1 and 4, 2 and 3, 3 and 2, 4 and 1, and 5 and 0. They have to write all of those down, then practice it orally with that previous section still visible. That seems easier than making them write it, especially for a 1st grader.

 

I do like grades 2-6 better (well, we're in grade 4, but I've looked ahead at 5 and 6), mostly because there is more math to vary what you're doing - it's not pages and pages and pages of the same thing like 1A is. As of yet, the only place I thought maybe there wasn't much practice/time to learn something was the multi-digit multiplication in 4A, BUT, I just assigned a small amount of problems from that section one day, then another small amount the next day, then the word problems the 3rd day. So we spread that section out over 3 days, and that seemed to do the trick. By time we went through the review and the test, he was pretty good with the standard algorithm. So there's an example of how to slow down to meet your child. Normally we do one section per day (more than what MM recommends), but that particular section, we needed to do ALL the problems and slow down to let the new material sink in. Not a big deal.

 

I'm not sure how Singapore would be any better in this case, where it still has them do all the missing addend problems and mental math. I think Singapore focuses on it more than MM does? Singapore has a better layout, for sure. I definitely like Singapore's presentation. But if it's the mental math that the child is struggling with, I think Singapore would be more difficult.

 

Anyway, MM does not expect a child to have all the facts memorized in that little drill section. It's just meant for practicing the facts. She doesn't expect the addition/subtraction facts to be memorized until the end of 2nd grade!

[ByGrace3]

I did find we needed a little more instruction for 1. DD needed me to add in manipulatives a lot, but I would show it to her and then she was fine.She just needed to see it off the page. Also, dd needed more time with the material. So when MM would teach a concept have 2 pages to do it and then move on, I knew we needed to do one page then practice the concepts through games, then come back and do the second page, stretching the lesson a few days. Not always, but on a lot especially the end. This is what we plan to do with 2 as well. MM is a great program, you just need to see how you can make it work for you.

[3peasinapod]

I had problems with MM with one child, as no matter how much we went through some of the problems, she just didn't get it. She is in 3rd, and we were doing material that she hadn't mastered from the 2 level. It was agony, as when we went to a new chapter, she had forgotten much of what she had learned, especially "the 8 wants to be a 10" or any other number. There was something missing for her. We switched her to CLE, and she is flourishing and told me she doesn't mind math anymore. We are still building confidence and flying through some of it, as it is a lot of review. We got behind on multiplication for her, and we are working on that now.

 

That being said, MM is like a hand in a glove for DD7. I am amazed at her ability to understand the mental manipulation of numbers that MM does. I don't know if we'll hit a block, but she is thriving and even gets excited after she has a light bulb moment. Most of the time, I go through 2 or so problems with her, and she takes off and finishes her pages quickly. This is the same material that we agonized over with DD8. Different kids, one mathy and one not.

 

I don't know if that helps at all, but just going over our experience.

[Parker Martin]

We didn't have to drill facts until multiplication, because there was so much practice in MM.

 

So far, this has been our experience as well.

[Tarreymere]

We have had a good experience with MM. My daughter is not resistant to math as long as it is MM. She is perfectly willing to sit and do her work and seems to have no trouble getting it. We are in 2A right now. She doesn't have her math facts memorized yet and 2A does continue to give her practice in this area. She does feel the need sometimes to use manipulatives to give herself a better idea of what is going on, but once she 'gets' a concept she doesn't feel a need to use them again.

 

She hated Singapore when we tried it briefly over the summer, I'm not really sure why. I didn't like it much either, but mostly for the fact it was three books instead of one and I didn't like the layout.

 

MM works well here. Mom says 'Go do math' and DD takes the kindle (I don't print the pages, she works from the kindle) and a notebook and shortly she returns with two pages or so of math for me to check. I wouldn't say that she is a 'mathy' kind of kid, either. I have had to explain a couple things to her that she didn't 'get' right away, but not too much.

 

I guess you just have to find what works for your child.

[Robyn]

Ds5 is just finishing the addition section in 1A this week, so we haven't completed very much of 1 yet. The oral drill he was able to work out in his head after seeing it on the worksheet for a a couple of pages. We did use some of the base ten cubes as counters in the beginning. Now he can "see" the amounts in his head when he does the oral drill.

 

Ds12 is supplementing with Percents from the Blue series. He struggles a bit with math, but Math Mammoth makes sense to him with minimal help from me. He is doing BCM right now, but I am going to stop when we hit the Algebra chapter and have him work through MM 6A-6B. Last year was a complete wash in math(K12 and Saxon).

[SorrelZG]

There are a lot of game and resource suggestions in the beginning of each section and my impression is that they are for you to use along the way as needed to help and you can take your time and progress at your child's speed. If I recall correctly, specific games are given for practice right before those blue box drills and I just spent more time on those games if the drill section was particularly difficult for DS but I didn't expect absolute mastery. I was thinking DS was supposed to know it all by heart at one point also but someone told me that Maria Miller said somewhere that mastery should be expected by the end of 2nd grade .. not along the way in first grade. That was a relief to me and MM was more enjoyable once I learned that. :D

[Paige]

My DS has done MM 3 and is going through MM4 right now. He has no problems and I do very little extra instruction with him. He's not a math genius, but he is good at math.

 

My DDs have done MM1, uh, for a long time.... They find math difficult. I think the problem is that in each chapter of MM1, there is a section describing supplemental games and exercises to do in addition to the pages if needed. Some kids really need those games. We skipped them and shouldn't have. I never needed them with DS, so I didn't think to spend time on them with the girls. I think since it is a homeschool curriculum, she is expecting people to adjust it for their kids instead of simply following each page in order. FWIW, MM was much more incremental than my kids' PS curriculum. Also, MM never tells you when to use manipulatives. I had to pull them out for every page with the girls and never with DS. Every time I tried to put them away, the girls would stall. Now, I am doing it orally with them, with manipulatives, instead of on the workpages and they are flying through it! I think they will be completely caught up within a month or two and they were really behind.

[boscopup]

Oh, I wanted to add that for your particular problem, Cuisenaire Rods are excellent. My 4 year old (just turned 5) was able to do Singapore EM K, where they have them doing missing addend problems before even doing regular addition much. They do it in the manner of "7 is ___ more than 4". I let him use his rods to figure it out. He can easily pull a 7 and a 4 rod out and just "see" that a 3 rod is missing. He's not particularly mathy (I had to use R&S Counting with Numbers book to teach him to count to 10... he can now count to 20 sort of, but still skips 13). But with C-rods, those missing addend problems are easy peasy. You just put the 2 numbers next to each other and pick the number that is missing, so they'll be the same length.

[desertmum]

Oh, I wanted to add that for your particular problem, Cuisenaire Rods are excellent. My 4 year old (just turned 5) was able to do Singapore EM K, where they have them doing missing addend problems before even doing regular addition much. They do it in the manner of "7 is ___ more than 4". I let him use his rods to figure it out. He can easily pull a 7 and a 4 rod out and just "see" that a 3 rod is missing. He's not particularly mathy (I had to use R&S Counting with Numbers book to teach him to count to 10... he can now count to 20 sort of, but still skips 13). But with C-rods, those missing addend problems are easy peasy. You just put the 2 numbers next to each other and pick the number that is missing, so they'll be the same length.

 

 

Thank you! :thumbup1:

[jer2911mom]

Hmmm... We didn't have the problem you're talking about. I thought there were more problems in 1A than we needed. We ended up skipping the subtraction chapter after doing all the missing addend stuff, since it was the same thing. :D

 

I just looked back at 1A to see what you're talking about. They have them work through ALL the sums of 5, for example, then on the same page, they do the oral drill. The child can look up at the previous section they just completed and see pictorially and the actual numbers what the answer is. Are you letting your child use that previous section? I always did, and my son learned his facts from just doing MM. We didn't have to drill facts until multiplication, because there was so much practice in MM. I always let him look at the previous sections for answers though. That helps him learn - it's kind of like using a multiplication table until your multiplication facts are solid.

 

I think MM takes the kids step by step through each thing pretty well. We did need to use base 10 blocks for the part where they go over 10. You can always add in manipulatives whenever your child needs them. In that missing addend section, they have pictorial examples of how to do 0 and 5, 1 and 4, 2 and 3, 3 and 2, 4 and 1, and 5 and 0. They have to write all of those down, then practice it orally with that previous section still visible. That seems easier than making them write it, especially for a 1st grader.

 

I do like grades 2-6 better (well, we're in grade 4, but I've looked ahead at 5 and 6), mostly because there is more math to vary what you're doing - it's not pages and pages and pages of the same thing like 1A is. As of yet, the only place I thought maybe there wasn't much practice/time to learn something was the multi-digit multiplication in 4A, BUT, I just assigned a small amount of problems from that section one day, then another small amount the next day, then the word problems the 3rd day. So we spread that section out over 3 days, and that seemed to do the trick. By time we went through the review and the test, he was pretty good with the standard algorithm. So there's an example of how to slow down to meet your child. Normally we do one section per day (more than what MM recommends), but that particular section, we needed to do ALL the problems and slow down to let the new material sink in. Not a big deal.

 

I'm not sure how Singapore would be any better in this case, where it still has them do all the missing addend problems and mental math. I think Singapore focuses on it more than MM does? Singapore has a better layout, for sure. I definitely like Singapore's presentation. But if it's the mental math that the child is struggling with, I think Singapore would be more difficult.

 

Anyway, MM does not expect a child to have all the facts memorized in that little drill section. It's just meant for practicing the facts. She doesn't expect the addition/subtraction facts to be memorized until the end of 2nd grade!

 

Thank you. It wasn't clear to me how the oral section was to be done. It seemed like encouraging her to look at the work she had just done would be the same as having her just read off the answer, and I wasn't sure that would add much value. It's good to know that the facts aren't expected to be memorized this quickly. I think for me, it's just unclear what the expectation is. I feel like partitioning numbers this quickly is a fast approach. In RS they move much slower and the concept settles in longer. We are also using CLE and it is much more thorough in its coverage. I guess I was just surprised to see all the numbers partitioned so quickly. Other programs seem to focus on 5 and 10 first. She hasn't had much practice with the other numbers and I was surprised at how rapidly we were going through them. My dd kept looking at me like, "We haven't done this before. How am I supposed to know all these facts already?"

 

Thanks again,

Kathy

Edited November 3, 2011 by jer2911mom

[jer2911mom]

There are a lot of game and resource suggestions in the beginning of each section and my impression is that they are for you to use along the way as needed to help and you can take your time and progress at your child's speed. If I recall correctly, specific games are given for practice right before those blue box drills and I just spent more time on those games if the drill section was particularly difficult for DS but I didn't expect absolute mastery. I was thinking DS was supposed to know it all by heart at one point also but someone told me that Maria Miller said somewhere that mastery should be expected by the end of 2nd grade .. not along the way in first grade. That was a relief to me and MM was more enjoyable once I learned that. :D

 

Thanks, that is a relief to me as well.

[jer2911mom]

So is the general consensus that I should just let her continue to use manipulatives during the oral drills? I think I'd feel better about that than just letting her look at the work she did previously and read off the answer.

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[abrightmom]

Oh, I wanted to add that for your particular problem, Cuisenaire Rods are excellent. My 4 year old (just turned 5) was able to do Singapore EM K, where they have them doing missing addend problems before even doing regular addition much. They do it in the manner of "7 is ___ more than 4". I let him use his rods to figure it out. He can easily pull a 7 and a 4 rod out and just "see" that a 3 rod is missing. He's not particularly mathy (I had to use R&S Counting with Numbers book to teach him to count to 10... he can now count to 20 sort of, but still skips 13). But with C-rods, those missing addend problems are easy peasy. You just put the 2 numbers next to each other and pick the number that is missing, so they'll be the same length.

Thanks for this suggestion! DD5 will love this. :001_smile:

[SorrelZG]

So is the general consensus that I should just let her continue to use manipulatives during the oral drills? I think I'd feel better about that than just letting her look at the work she did previously and read off the answer.

 

Thanks,

Kathy

 

I would absolutely let her continue.

[boscopup]

So is the general consensus that I should just let her continue to use manipulatives during the oral drills? I think I'd feel better about that than just letting her look at the work she did previously and read off the answer.

 

Yep! Use whatever you need to use. :) You could also skip that section and come back to it after you've done the rest of the page and/or practiced more.

 

Reading her previous answer IS helpful. It's one way to get it into her brain visually that 2 and 3 is 5. :) Some people use flash cards with the answers before using them without the answers. Just one more method to memorize things.

 

In RS B, are you to the point where you've finished the RS A review yet? I wonder if you're just not doing the same things in the two programs at this point, since MM doesn't do a long review of K stuff. Honestly, if RS B works better for her, you could just use RS B for now, and come back to MM (or another program) later.

 

Also, when we are learning facts in MM, I tell my son that I don't expect him to have them all memorized yet, but that we're working on memorizing them. That takes the pressure off.

 

You could e-mail Maria Miller to ask her what she intends with the oral section. She's very responsive to e-mails. I'm just guessing at her intent, and it's how we used them. I could be wrong. :lol:

[ByGrace3]

You could e-mail Maria Miller to ask her what she intends with the oral section. She's very responsive to e-mails. I'm just guessing at her intent, and it's how we used them. I could be wrong. :lol:

 

in case this helps, I recently emailed her about using manipulatives during the lesson, and when to memorize facts. This was her response:

 

 

Math facts:

it's good if by the end of first grade, a child has memorized the addition and subtraction facts within 0-10, where the answers are 10 or less.

 

Then in 2nd grade we tackle the rest of them... e.g. 6 + 7 or 9 + 9 or 15 - 6.

 

 

She was very helpful with my questions!

[jer2911mom]

Yep! Use whatever you need to use. :) You could also skip that section and come back to it after you've done the rest of the page and/or practiced more.

 

Reading her previous answer IS helpful. It's one way to get it into her brain visually that 2 and 3 is 5. :) Some people use flash cards with the answers before using them without the answers. Just one more method to memorize things.

 

In RS B, are you to the point where you've finished the RS A review yet? I wonder if you're just not doing the same things in the two programs at this point, since MM doesn't do a long review of K stuff. Honestly, if RS B works better for her, you could just use RS B for now, and come back to MM (or another program) later.

 

Also, when we are learning facts in MM, I tell my son that I don't expect him to have them all memorized yet, but that we're working on memorizing them. That takes the pressure off.

 

You could e-mail Maria Miller to ask her what she intends with the oral section. She's very responsive to e-mails. I'm just guessing at her intent, and it's how we used them. I could be wrong. :lol:

 

Thanks, we have finished the RS A review. I think you're right, it's basically that we aren't doing the same things and MM feels rushed compared to how we're doing it in RS B and CLE. I think that's what threw us both off. I had already looked through SP 1A and realized we need to push back on starting it so that we didn't feel rushed through the number bonds sections. My dd is learning the partitioning of numbers, but does better remembering them if we do each number slowly over time, play games, etc. Rushing it all in the first few weeks just isn't going to cut it for her, even if she's not expected to memorize them yet. I was thinking starting SP 1A closer to mid-year would help her not get hung up in those sections. I guess the same was true for MM and I didn't realize it. For some reason I just don't want what we are getting in MM to be her first exposure. I'd rather it cement what she is getting more time learning elsewhere, if that makes sense. My dd just needs a bit more time to take it all in, like her mom. : ) I really want MM or SP to work for us, but my gut feeling is that we are going to have to take our time with it so she doesn't get overwhelmed.

 

Thanks again,

Kathy

Edited November 4, 2011 by jer2911mom

[jer2911mom]

in case this helps, I recently emailed her about using manipulatives during the lesson, and when to memorize facts. This was her response:

 

 

Math facts:

it's good if by the end of first grade, a child has memorized the addition and subtraction facts within 0-10, where the answers are 10 or less.

 

Then in 2nd grade we tackle the rest of them... e.g. 6 + 7 or 9 + 9 or 15 - 6.

 

 

She was very helpful with my questions!

 

Thanks! This was helpful!

 

Kathy