FLL, R&S, and Shurley

[jer2911mom]

Hi,

 

I have been researching English programs and have narrowed it down to these three. We are using FLL 1 for 1st grade this year with dd6. It is going okay, not great. My dd likes the picture study (which we also get elsewhere), narration (which we get with WWE) and poem memorization. The rest is very repetitive and I think a bit boring for her. She is at the older end of her grade. I do like that it is short and sweet, and very open-and-go. I have some questions about these three programs:

 

1. What are the major points to consider with each of these programs? I understand Shurley doesn't diagram and am okay with supplementing for that.

 

2. Which of these programs is the most comprehensive? Shurley seems to really pack a punch with the grammar, which I like, but I'm reading that the writing portion is generally skipped by a lot of users.

 

3. Which one of these programs is the most open-and-go?

 

4. Which one takes the least time?

 

5. What would be a good writing supplement for Shurley? What would be a good diagramming supplement?

 

6. Does anyone do all of the Shurley levels? I keep reading that people do the odds or evens with #7. What do you do in between?

 

7. Is there a sequence that uses 2 or all of these programs that makes sense? I've read some do FLL 1 &2 before Shurley. Does the terminology get confusing between the different programs?

 

8. Can you really come into Shurley at a later level and not miss anything? Seems like it would be better to start with Level 1 now?

 

9. How hard is it to tweak R&S for homeschooling? I used the math and did not like having to tweak the classroom part for one-on-one. I would do this if it is truly worth it over the other homeschooling options available. I really prefer open-and-go/very straightforward as I have a younger dd I'll be teaching as well and our days are already too long.

 

I'm looking for something we can stick with long-term. I have a feeling any of these three programs would be sufficient and it is going to come down to what works best for our family, so I would just like to get more details before we decide.

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[jer2911mom]

:lurk5: Need some input, pretty please. :)

[happyhomemaker]

I haven't used R&S, but I have used Shurley for the past 3 years. Like you have heard, the writing is horrendous. We did it for a year, and it was such a relief when I made the decision to drop that part.

1. One of the best things about Shurley is the jingles for learning grammar definitions. Even my then 3 yr old would go around the house singing the noun song. I have read that some dislike the rote memorization of FLL, but I don't think that's an issue with Shurley. The questions that go along with labeling the sentences are great too. You ask a question to go with each part of speech to help them find it in the sentence. I can hear dd asking herself the questions now when she is unsure about a part of speech. The questions hammer home how to find different things in a sentence.

 

2. I'm not sure which is more comprehensive. I am actually considering melding some Shurley methods with FLL this year for my son. I like the poetry memorization of FLL and I like the diagramming. It also seems to contain more practice than Shurley (I know you can get practice books, but I prefer to have as few workbooks to keep track of as possible). So I think I am going to use FLL with the Shurley jingles and maybe use their question and answer format at times if ds has trouble identifying parts of speech. We'll see how it goes.

 

3. Shurley is definitely not open and go. I had to sit with dd most of the time until she got to the practice problems. I also like how FLL is only 3 times a week, Shurley is 4 for just the grammar. FLL seems pretty open and go, but I haven't been using it very long so I'm not sure about the upper grades.

 

4. Not sure.

 

5. We are using WWE, but I am sure there are many others that would work well. As for diagramming, I have added that in just this year for dd (4th grade). I am just having her diagram one of the practice sentences from Shurley. If you plan to switch to ALL at all, SWB said that diagramming is taught in that program from the beginning so your dc could switch from Shurley, having had no diagramming up to that point, and be fine.

 

6.I have done Shurley 1-3 and this year have skipped to 5. We are taking our time through 5 and will start 7 whenever we finish.

 

7. Not sure

 

8. I think you could come in late with Shurley and be fine. There is a lot of repetition, especially in the beginning. I was skipping beginning chapters with dd b/c she would complain about knowing it all already.

 

I hope some of that info helps and that more experienced people will chime in. Shurley and FLL both seem very scripted so if that is not your cup of tea maybe R&S would be better. If you are good at grammar at all, I wouldn't let the scriptedness both you. I end up explaining things in my own words half the time anyway.

 

 

6.

Edited October 8, 2011 by happyhomemaker
I just realized that I wrote a long post while on cold medication. If I didn't make sense, it's the Sudafed talking.

[mjbucks1]

I have used FLL (the "old book" with year 1&2 combined and year 3. We then switch to R&S for grade 4 and up). I have not used Shirley but I will answer R&S questions as best I can.

 

Hi,

 

I have been researching English programs and have narrowed it down to these three. We are using FLL 1 for 1st grade this year with dd6. It is going okay, not great. My dd likes the picture study (which we also get elsewhere), narration (which we get with WWE) and poem memorization. The rest is very repetitive and I think a bit boring for her. She is at the older end of her grade. I do like that it is short and sweet, and very open-and-go. I have some questions about these three programs:

 

1. What are the major points to consider with each of these programs? I understand Shurley doesn't diagram and am okay with supplementing for that. R&S is very strong when it comes to diagramming. Also, R&S reviews constantly (although not everthing is reviewed in every lesson).

 

2. Which of these programs is the most comprehensive? Shurley seems to really pack a punch with the grammar, which I like, but I'm reading that the writing portion is generally skipped by a lot of users. R&S is excellent when it comes to grammar. The writing instruction is very good, IMHO. It lays a strong foundation, but it does not give assignments every day. We do other writing programs as well, but the R&S assignments reinforce the basics of good writing.

 

3. Which one of these programs is the most open-and-go? R&S is EASY. Each lesson has a few oral review questions and then lesson (My oldest reads it on his own. I read the lesson to my dd.) Then there are oral and written exercises. We do most of them orally (except diagramming and writing exercises). I do not do ANY teacher prep.

 

4. Which one takes the least time? The max with R&S may be 1/2 hour (longer if an older student is writing out all of the exercises. Writing assignments take longer). Many days my dd and I do it in 20 minutes (she is in R&S 6).

 

5. What would be a good writing supplement for Shurley? What would be a good diagramming supplement? I am using SWB Writing with Skill for my dd. I have used IEW in the past. I have heard good reviews of Writing with Ease.

 

6. Does anyone do all of the Shurley levels? I keep reading that people do the odds or evens with #7. What do you do in between?

 

7. Is there a sequence that uses 2 or all of these programs that makes sense? I've read some do FLL 1 &2 before Shurley. Does the terminology get confusing between the different programs? I can say both of my older kids have transitioned seamlessly from FLL to R&S.

 

8. Can you really come into Shurley at a later level and not miss anything? Seems like it would be better to start with Level 1 now?

 

9. How hard is it to tweak R&S for homeschooling? I used the math and did not like having to tweak the classroom part for one-on-one. I would do this if it is truly worth it over the other homeschooling options available. I really prefer open-and-go/very straightforward as I have a younger dd I'll be teaching as well and our days are already too long. Tweaking is really not an issue. The oral exercises may say to "diagram these sentences on the chalkboard". We just do them on a piece of paper. There really are not any class activities that are included in the program. It is the easiest program (as far as being literally open and go) that I have used across the curriculum.

 

I'm looking for something we can stick with long-term. I have a feeling any of these three programs would be sufficient and it is going to come down to what works best for our family, so I would just like to get more details before we decide. I LOVE R&S because it is solid, no frills, and EASY to implement. BUT, it is not an exciting program. Really, we view it as a "just get it done" program. My kids have really LEARNED grammar (which is evident in their Latin studies).

 

Thanks,

Kathy

 

I hope this helps you in your decision. I really do think it is just a matter of personal preference. Blessings!!

[chepyl]

I agree with the above abput R&S. We do all of the exercises orally. Every now and then I might type up the sentences and have ds underline nouns and circle verbs.

 

Shurley is NOT open and go, R&S is. Shurley is so scripted that I needed to preread, maybe twice. It also required lots of "stuff" to be gathered of you did the exercises completely. We were in level 1. 4 chapters of sorting pictures of household items :001_huh: I one or two lessons, maybe, but 20! We skipped to chapter 5 the first day.

 

I don't know about FLL. HTH.

 

 

Hi,

 

I have been researching English programs and have narrowed it down to these three. We are using FLL 1 for 1st grade this year with dd6. It is going okay, not great. My dd likes the picture study (which we also get elsewhere), narration (which we get with WWE) and poem memorization. The rest is very repetitive and I think a bit boring for her. She is at the older end of her grade. I do like that it is short and sweet, and very open-and-go. I have some questions about these three programs:

 

1. What are the major points to consider with each of these programs? I understand Shurley doesn't diagram and am okay with supplementing for that.

 

2. Which of these programs is the most comprehensive? Shurley seems to really pack a punch with the grammar, which I like, but I'm reading that the writing portion is generally skipped by a lot of users.

 

3. Which one of these programs is the most open-and-go?

 

4. Which one takes the least time?

 

5. What would be a good writing supplement for Shurley? What would be a good diagramming supplement?

 

6. Does anyone do all of the Shurley levels? I keep reading that people do the odds or evens with #7. What do you do in between?

 

7. Is there a sequence that uses 2 or all of these programs that makes sense? I've read some do FLL 1 &2 before Shurley. Does the terminology get confusing between the different programs?

 

8. Can you really come into Shurley at a later level and not miss anything? Seems like it would be better to start with Level 1 now?

 

9. How hard is it to tweak R&S for homeschooling? I used the math and did not like having to tweak the classroom part for one-on-one. I would do this if it is truly worth it over the other homeschooling options available. I really prefer open-and-go/very straightforward as I have a younger dd I'll be teaching as well and our days are already too long.

 

I'm looking for something we can stick with long-term. I have a feeling any of these three programs would be sufficient and it is going to come down to what works best for our family, so I would just like to get more details before we decide.

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[MaMa2005]

 

1. What are the major points to consider with each of these programs? I understand Shurley doesn't diagram and am okay with supplementing for that. Shurley doesn't "diagram', but they teach "classifying". IMO, it is basically the same thing. DS had no problem going from classifying a sentence to diagramming it.

 

2. Which of these programs is the most comprehensive? Shurley seems to really pack a punch with the grammar, which I like, but I'm reading that the writing portion is generally skipped by a lot of users. I think Shurley is great for grammar and I like how it is teaching specific writing skills, i.e., exactly how to write a two-point expository paragraph.

 

3. Which one of these programs is the most open-and-go? Shurley is pretty open and go. I usually spend 5-10 minutes making up additional sentences for DS to classify/diagram.

 

4. Which one takes the least time? We don't spend a lot of time on Shurley and I am doing it at an accelerated pace. DS would be bored silly if I used every scripted lesson. However, I do use the scripts when introducing a new topic and it has worked well.

 

5. What would be a good writing supplement for Shurley? What would be a good diagramming supplement? We are using WWE3 this year. DS also does creative writing once a week.

 

6. Does anyone do all of the Shurley levels? I keep reading that people do the odds or evens with #7. What do you do in between? We had to back up as we did FLL1/2 last year as well as MCT Island. DS NEVER got the grammar so we went back to first grade Shurley. At the rate we are progressing, we will probably finish Shurley 1st, 2nd, and 3rd this year. As of now (at the end of 1st grade Shurley), I am sold on the program and will probably see it through the last level.

 

7. Is there a sequence that uses 2 or all of these programs that makes sense? I've read some do FLL 1 &2 before Shurley. Does the terminology get confusing between the different programs? Never had a terminology problem here. We will pick up FLL3 at the beginning of next school year and then continue with Shurley.

 

8. Can you really come into Shurley at a later level and not miss anything? Seems like it would be better to start with Level 1 now? Like I said earlier, we backed up and I am glad we approached it that way.

 

9. How hard is it to tweak R&S for homeschooling? I used the math and did not like having to tweak the classroom part for one-on-one. I would do this if it is truly worth it over the other homeschooling options available. I really prefer open-and-go/very straightforward as I have a younger dd I'll be teaching as well and our days are already too long. No help with R&S. Sorry.

 

 

Hope some of our experience helps you with your decision.

[jer2911mom]

We will pick up FLL3 at the beginning of next school year and then continue with Shurley.

 

So, do you plan to rotate the two?

[jer2911mom]

Thank you, everyone, for the replies so far! This information is very helpful!

 

Kathy

[MaMa2005]

So, do you plan to rotate the two?

 

Yes, I do. I am a firm believer in having great grammar/language skills for one's future.

[dsmama]

I used FLL 1&2 and was not a big fan of the repetition, but the facts are spot on! Then, for third, I bought R&S and was very quickly bored.

 

So I bought Shirley 3 and have been happy for the most part. My DD loves the jingles and is learning about parts of speech and their functions in a sentence.

 

We use IEW All Things Fun and Fascinating for writing.

 

Next year we will do Classical Conversations Essentials, and so I knew that Shurley and IEW would best prepare her for this class.

[PeterPan]

Kathy, the biggest thing you could do for yourself right now is to free up how you're using FLL1/2. So is it broken into separate books now? When we did it, it was in one book. Like your dc, my dd did *not* need the repetition. With an advanced child you'll read about techniques like compacting and telescoping. You need to do a bit of learning on that so you can apply it to these situations you're hitting. There's absolutely no reason FLL1/2 needs to take so long with some kids. FLL1 we barely spent any time on. For FLL2 we did only the lessons where a new concept was introduced. I liked the way she introduced each new term (with activities, etc.), and I valued the memorizing of the defs. Beyond that, it was all superfluous for us and duplicated what we were already doing on our own. So you need to compact and telescope and make it fit your dc.

 

We started FLL1/2 in January of K5 and finished it some time in 1st. I got Shurley 2 after that, which was pretty much a breeze at that point. With dd I try to be efficient but effective. She's not a grammar lover, so we do enough and make sure she really gets what we do. After Shurley2 we did Shurley 4 alongside WT2. Oh I remember. In 2nd we did CW Aesop blended with WT1 and latin, so we didn't need more grammar on top of that. Then in 3rd we did Shurley4 with WT2, which was FABULOUS. I kept a very relaxed pace with Shurley4, and I think we finished it sometime in 4th. In 5th we did Shurley6 plus some CW Homer (big flop, she hated it). In 6th we did some of Shurley 7 (didn't finish, never really found our groove, it's different from the other levels) and a mix of writing. In 7th she's doing a co-op writing class, which I'm happy with (hurray!), and I haven't started any grammar with her yet. I have a fabulous book by Moutoux that I ADORE and want to use with her. We'll see.

 

So my points?

-Grammar is not taught in isolation. It has the context of the other grammar you're hitting in latin, your writing program, etc.

-You can give yourself some freedom to stretch, skip levels, compact, do whatever you want. For *us* Shurley has these short, sweet lessons that fit my grammar-phobe dyslexic. If you're thinking it doesn't have a lot of repetition, you're deluded. But the amounts each day are so short (3 sentences for most of the levels) that my absolute grammar-phobe can tolerate it. R&S3, which we tried, SUCKED HER SOUL DRY LIKE A VAMPIRE AT MIDNIGHT IN A FORGOTTEN CEMETARY. No joy, no love. She's not ever going to love grammar the way I do, but at least I can make Shurley fun for her and get the job done.

-We make it FUN. We diagram our Shurley (no it doesn't say to, do it anyway), and we just have tons of fun with it.

 

I'm not sure if Shurley is what you want. It's open and go for me, but you should read my old posts on the board (old as in from 2nd grade, hehe), where I had to learn how to make it work for me. And I'm pretty rogue on grammar and confident to teach it any way I want, as you can tell. We've always added editing work on the side, which I think is very, very wise. So you just have to know your kid. I will point out that it's not like you have to pick one grammar program and use it every year till high school. You can be eclectic, hitting grammar through latin, your writing program, lots of fun stuff, and pull it together with Analytical Grammar later. You could do KISS grammar (free online) which would give a bright child a run for their money. You can keep your current grammar but unhinge how you're using it. There are actually a few intelligent grammar programs with sentences that are worth reading. I think Abbeyej used Stewart Grammar (or is it Stewart English?) with her ds, and I liked the samples I saw there. I never used FLL3, as it came out late for us, but it's probably fine. The main thing is not to be afraid to chop-chop or modify and make it work for your kid. Have fun with it. It's not like you're going to *ruin* your kid if you chop them down to 3 a day on the exercises. Horrors, they might come out actually thinking grammar is pleasant and fun. ;)

[jer2911mom]

So is it broken into separate books now? When we did it, it was in one book.

 

 

Yes, they've separated it into two separate levels. There was some redundancy with WWE that was eliminated.

 

R&S3, which we tried, SUCKED HER SOUL DRY LIKE A VAMPIRE AT MIDNIGHT IN A FORGOTTEN CEMETARY.

 

ROTFL :lol:. I do have this concern.

 

Thanks for your comments. I agree that I need to do the compacting/telescoping you were talking about. My dd6 is almost 7 and on the older side of her grade. It has been hard for me to figure out exactly where she is, but she does seem to grasp the FLL 1 concepts quickly and doesn't seem to need all the repetition. I'm wondering if I should drop the FLL1 or quickly finish it, then try R&S2 or Shurley so I can see if either of those are a fit. I'm wondering if I went to something else and came back to FLL3, if I would be missing anything critical from FLL 1&2. I guess I could quickly go through FLL2 as well. I'm getting the impression that FLL3 is where the pace picks up and where the content gets meatier. It is sounding like I could move around between these 3 programs and probably still come out okay. I guess my new question would be what are the not-to-be-missed years of each program?

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[missmoe]

Hi,

 

 

 

1. What are the major points to consider with each of these programs? I understand Shurley doesn't diagram and am okay with supplementing for that.

 

2. Which of these programs is the most comprehensive? Shurley seems to really pack a punch with the grammar, which I like, but I'm reading that the writing portion is generally skipped by a lot of users.

We did skip the writing and the state study portion of Shurley

3. Which one of these programs is the most open-and-go?

All three seem open and go. Shurley needs the sentence booklets for the sentences or you need to copy out the sentences each day.

 

4. Which one takes the least time? FLL

 

5. What would be a good writing supplement for Shurley? What would be a good diagramming supplement? When we used Shurley, we used the writing suggestions in TWTM as well as Four Square.

6. Does anyone do all of the Shurley levels? I keep reading that people do the odds or evens with #7. What do you do in between? We worked through levels 2,4, and 6. I didn't do anything in between.

 

7. Is there a sequence that uses 2 or all of these programs that makes sense? I've read some do FLL 1 &2 before Shurley. Does the terminology get confusing between the different programs? FLL wasn't available when I started homeschooling with my oldest. So we used levels 2,4, and 6 of Shurley and then moved into Rod and Staff level 5 or 6 (depending on the child). I did use the first level of FLL (at the time all there was) with one of my children and loved it.

 

8. Can you really come into Shurley at a later level and not miss anything? Seems like it would be better to start with Level 1 now? I think you could start as well as level 4 and be okay. Shurley is a lot of review. That is why I loved it for grammar stage.

 

9. How hard is it to tweak R&S for homeschooling? I used the math and did not like having to tweak the classroom part for one-on-one. I would do this if it is truly worth it over the other homeschooling options available. I really prefer open-and-go/very straightforward as I have a younger dd I'll be teaching as well and our days are already too long. I haven't found it needs any tweaking. I orally go over the oral review with my student, then we read the lesson together, do the class exercises together as well. I assign the written and review exercises as needed. Occasionally there is an activity that needs a classroom to do it as written, but that is far and few between.

 

I'm looking for something we can stick with long-term. I have a feeling any of these three programs would be sufficient and it is going to come down to what works best for our family, so I would just like to get more details before we decide.

 

Thanks,

Kathy

 

Hope this helps.

[jer2911mom]

Thanks, Miss Moe! :)

 

Kathy