How much discipline and how do you enforce it with 7th/8th grade?

[summer]

I am getting a fair amount of resistance anymore. DD will often complain and will try to throw at me that she won't do something because it is "too public schoolish" or "too dumb." I have tried to get her to work independently, but unless it is something clear cut where I can tell she did it, she often won't. For example, if I ask her to read a chapter in a book but do not have a quiz to give her, I won't know she really read it until later when and if I do give her a quiz or something on it. I have Latina Christiana 1 and have had it since last fall but she won't do anything on it. She always has an excuse or sometimes, just an "opps" and a giggle.

 

I am concerned about this fall because she will use having anyone in the house as an excuse to not do her work. Now realize, we have a large house. And unless she becomes highly educated and experienced, in the real world career, she likely won't have her own sound proofed office. Our house is big. It is not "sound proof" but is sound proof enough that I can call for her and have her not hear me. Yet, if anyone is in the house, she won't do her work without tons of pushing. Then she will do the stuff that gives obvious feedback she did it, like workbook pages. Things she can slip by me, like placing a paper in her notebook, will not get done. She is not an only child so following her around and keeping watch on her 24/7 is not really an option.

 

I really do not think I am expecting too much of her, but my discipline methods are not really working. For example, since she is in algebra now, I have been letting her use a calculator. However, most days, she cannot use the calculator because she loses it constantly. I have asked her to put it away. She refuses. She won't say she refuses, she will simply not put it away. Then the next day, she comes to me unable to do her school work due to missing the calculator. Then I give her the natural punishment of having to do it without. But then she loses her pencils. I have given her every single coping tool possible to keep her pencils. I have given her a place for them. I have given her lots of pencils and pencil sharpeners and all. But I have caught her walking with a pencil and just dropping it on the ground while she walks, leaving pencils on her bed and taking no heed when they fall off, that sort of thing. I also used to catch her breaking her pencils, but we have gotten her past that.

 

DH has suggested that we send her back to school because he works from home and he is tired of seeing her refusing to get dressed and complain and argue all day. We have worked past some of these things. For example, I force her out of her room at 9am. She is not allowed to go back in until her school work is done. That has done wonders. We also signed her up for a few outside classes and just told her she has no choice. This has worked well.

 

But now I am worried about this next school year. We typically start in June, but because she did not do her work much of this year, we cannot start in June as planned. I am trying to decide if we should just dump the rest of this years work (all we have not dumped yet is some math suppliments) and move on or not. Usually, we are done no later than mid March for the school year and then take a nice break and start back in June. This time, we are scrambling to do some things this week which is the last week of May. We have actually come a long ways since last year, but my 2 youngest were in private school last year and will be home fulltime starting next week. DD dehaves during the day like she is a person of great leisure. She moves very slowly from thing to thing. She frequently fails to follow instructions (stuff like still eating food with fingers that should not be eaten with fingers).

 

Here is a sample of a typical day around here. I will go to her room at 9am and tell her she needs to get up. I will go on attending to the smaller children and come back just before I leave the house and tell her at 9:10 that I am serious, she has to get up. I drive the smaller children to church (they go to our church school) and I get back close to 10am. I have told her many times I over that getting up at 9am gives her an entire hour to get up, get dressed, brush teeth, have breakfast. I have posted a sign next to her door reminding her of this. At almost 10 when I arrive home, I go in to her room and yell to get out of bed NOW!!!! At this point, she will moan and say she could not get out of bed because she must have the door shut before she can get out of bed because she doesn't want anyone to see her PJs. I shut the door and stand outside the door while reminding her through the door until she finally comes out while moaning and complaining about how she doesn't see why she has to get out of bed. I head downstairs at this point while reminding her to put her dirty clothes in the basket and to clean up after herself. I come back in a short bit to find her back in her room with the door shut and her bathroom more trashed than I thought possible from just brushing teeth. I call her out again and tell her to clean it up. IF I have time to stand and supervise, I will stand while she cleans. By this time, it is generally 10:30 or so and I tell her to start her school work immediately. This is when she informs me that she is starved and cannot possibly work so hungry. So I let her go eat. Breakfast lasts an hour or so. Generally by now, I have left the house. I stupidly signed up for volunteer work at both the younger childrens school and my oldest's school. If I don't have that going on, I usually have other things and this is my only time to do it. DH works from home so she can stay there, but he needs to work, not stand over her making her move her pencil or read her books.

 

I come back around 2 or 3:15, depending on the day. At this point, she has done no school work but announces she needs lunch so she cannot. At this point, if I have the energy and time to deal with it, I will get mad and send her to some room and make her do the work. She will insist she cannot do things like spelling tests because she needs more studying. I am not sure what to do about her refusal to take tests because if I just gave them anyway and she failed, then what? I have thought of giving her the tests anyway and then making her write each word 20 times for each word she misses.

 

Anyway, this is a long post to ask what everyone does as far as scheduling and discipline at this age. Would it be wrong to set down a breakfast time and if she choses to sleep through it, then she choses to miss breakfast? What about when it is apparent that she did not study for something and it is time to have something like a spelling test?

 

Overall, she is pretty good. But whenever she is up against something that is not easy for her, the complaining starts and the work does not get done. My DH has gotten pretty mad over this. I know exactly how he feels. If she has trouble, instead of asking for her, she will fly off the handle. When I try to explain to her, she won't listen, she will just keep crying and raving about how stupid it is. Oh, and we do our lesson times in the evenings or during the day, but she will often interrupt me and tell me she can figure it out herself and does not want me to explain things to her.

 

Next week, without any break (as she refused to do her work so much during the year, that she missed her usual April and May break) she will need to start Apologia General Science and start over with Latina Christiana 1. End of August she starts WriteShop. She has already informed me she does not need a writing program. And as far as the Latin goes, everytime we start a language, she declares a different one she wants to know. So we are just going to stick with the LC1.

 

I want to make sure that I make it clear that she is not like this 100% of the time, these are just examples of the times when we are having troubles. I am starting to wonder if she will even be able to handle college when the time comes, or if she will whine and complain and say every single class is stupid and refuse to go and lose her pencils and caculator.

 

Clarification: added after the fact.. I need to explain that 75% of the time I do not have a problem with her. These problems do seem to revolve more around her monthly cycle and started around the time she got her first. I did start her on vitamins which has helped a lot. But we do still have issues as I have listed. But this is not an every day thing, these are just the examples of the typical problems we have when we have problems. As far as I can tell, it gets worst around that-time-of-the-month and better at other times. Later in the day, she does much better than in the morning also. I have her on calcium and a multivitamin now.

[GraceinMD]

I'm sorry - it sounds like a tough time for you all.

 

I suppose that there are many ways to approach this, and (since I have a whiner/slacker [in some ways] myself) I may not be the best to answer, but here are a few thoughts off the top of my head:

 

-when ds gets like this, I generally tell him that there are two kinds of work he can do in the world - work with his mind or work with his muscles. Either is fine and can be honorable, but he needs to learn how to do one or the other. So, when he has balked at schoolwork, I have shown him, vigorously, how to (e.g.) scrub a toilet, or weed, or something like that. Spelling and math usually look a little more appealing after that.

 

- what are her privileges? friends, computer, phone, movies, outings, shopping, clothes, magazines, music? I think she'd have to lose them until she started being more responsible with the work that she's charged with. She needs to "own" her work. I'd say, "Dd, you had a choice to keep up with your calculator, but didn't, so you will need to do the problems without it. You have xx minutes and then we're moving on to subject Z." Whatever math doesn't get done then gets done at the end of the day, before any privileges occur. (I always think this "stick" approach is worse than the "carrot" approach - but I always feel taken advantage of when I offer too many "carrots." I do try to remember the verse in the Bible, though, that says, "...pleasant words promote instruction." I probably don't remember it often enough!)

 

- it also sounds as though she's learned that you don't mean business until the third+ time you tell her something (that is, "instant obedience" is not the norm). She needs to take responsibility for her own work. I really struggle in this area, because it's usually easier to do it (whatever it is) myself. To answer your question, yes, b'fast is at x o'clock and if she misses it, she misses it. I'd probably have a bowl of fruit or something available, but no catering to her whims. She's manipulating you, it seems.

 

I'll be interested in other responses, although I suspect they might sound harsh to those of us who have kids who "push back" hard!

[WTMindy]

First of all big hugs!! I don't have kids that age quite yet, so you can take what I say with a grain of salt. If it were my dd I would tell her that she has lost the privilege of independence. It sounds like she is not quite ready for independent work. So, have her sit with you while she is doing something. Check up on her frequently. It will take a lot more work on your part, but it will show your dd that you mean business. I would have a consequence for each and every offense (disrespect, etc) and I would let her know them ahead of time and then follow through every time without becoming angry (at least on the outside). The key is consistency. You can even discuss with her what would be good consequences for her actions. Involve her in the process, yet be firm in your expectations and your follow through.

 

Please save this post so when my dd turns 13, I can remind myself! :-)

[ABQmom]

You probably need to start discipling bad attitudes. Much harder to do, I know! When my oldest refuses to do something, she gets disciplined by her father. His help is a must to keep things running smoothly. We started doing a report card, so that dd can see consequences for her lack of studying or effort. Dh will give out consequences for a bad report card, although knowing the report was coming solved our problems there. Take away privileges that are important to her until she does what she is told. Taking away coveted time with friends works wonders on a bad attitude. It's tough, but you've got to get her attitude under control before she can learn. Just my 2 cents.

[Peela]

I think if I was struggling like that every day, I would send my kid to school! But, I do have a difficult child...I basically learned early on not to leave the room. I have two kids and if I leave the room, they start mucking around- or one does, disturbing the other, which is just as bad. We have a schoolroom and this is where my computer and desk are, and this is where I spend our school hours, till just after lunch.

My 13yo daughter loves her morning shower....if she sleeps in...and it is her responsibility to get up on time, not mine......she doesn't get a shower. Natural consequence.

I wouldn't skip breakfast, because of how important it is for getting the metabolism moving in the mornings, but I guess it could be a last resort if its important to her. I have heard of people doing things like tipping frozen marbles into bed with their lazy child, or spraying them with water.

Overall, it sounds like your relationship with her is not so good. She doesn't respect you. I would get tough, but make sure you follow through every single time. But then, also spend more time with her, do some things together...I don't know what your dd likes, but mine loves to play games, to cook with me, to go shopping with me, and for me to sit and do art with her.

Have you seen the Raising Godly Tomatoes website? I am not Christian but I learned a lot from this website, and the concept of tomato staking older children is very useful. basically, if they cant be trusted to behave out of your sight, they need to stay with you in the same room, all the time, wherever you go, until they earn your trust. So if you are int he kitchen, they do their schoolwork at the kitchen table etc

http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/

Ultimately, it is you who needs to change, of course...she is a child, and you set the parameters of her existence. I find my greatest downfall with discipline issues is when I want my misbehaving child to love me, so I am not strict enough when they express hatred and anger toward me. However, that is one of those parenting truths we all come to learn....a child who is given very clear boundaries and they are held firm, comes to respect their parents, and love follows.

[WTMCassandra]

I'm sorry you're going through this. I think she has waaaay more freedom than she can handle. Some ideas I would try include:

 

1. Since you can't trust her to get out of bed/ready while you are gone, she needs to get ready and go with you to take the younger children. (Tomato-staking). She needs to be ready at 9:10, period. If she isn't, put her in the car with you with her PJs on. No one is going to die riding around in a car in PJs. Use this as recital time--if you gave her something to read the day before, quiz her orally on it during the car ride. Regain the car ride as school time and keep her close to you.

 

2. Be firm but nice, and require obedience after one instruction. It sounds like she is used to cajoling you into repeating and threatening--not a fun game for either of you. I would sit her down and apologize to her for giving her more freedom than she can handle, and tell her that things are going to change. Quickly.

 

3. She needs more supervision in her schoolwork. She needs to work out in the open somewhere where all of her supplies "live." I think perhaps you should reconsider your volunteer work until she is more on track (sorry). Another solution might be to work out a schedule with her of eating/schoolwork and have her report in to her Dad every 30 minutes or so and show him the schoolwork so he can tell she is on track. He doesn't have to grade it right then and there, just give it a quick look to be sure she has given it a good try. I honestly don't think this child will succeed homeschooling on her own for four hours a day to accomplish anything. If one of you can't supervise her you might need to consider other methods of education.

 

4. Devise a consequence for moaning/whining/complaining and enforce it every. time. You could declare the next two weeks bootcamp and just batten down the hatches and do nothing but work on this child. The first few days will not be pleasant for anyone but when she figures out that you mean business I bet she will shape up quickly. Consider taking away all of her freedoms and then giving them back slowly as she demonstrates obedience and diligence.

 

5. Have her do things with a timer. In real life you cannot take an hour to eat breakfast and an hour to eat lunch. Set times that you expect certain amounts of schoolwork done in and enforce them.

 

6. Do not expect that she will do ANYTHING on her own. Check up on her frequently--VERY frequently. This will help you feel less frustrated. Just *know* that you *have* to check.

 

Hugs to you. My time is limited so these ideas might sound terse and judgmental, but I hope not. I am sorry you're going through this. Parenting can be extremely frustrating. My children are only 11 and 9, so I haven't gone through their adolescence yet, so YMMV. You will have to put some serious effort forth here and be really consistent, but I think you could really make a difference and equip this child for the real world.

[Langhaven]

I really like the responses to this one, especially Grace's!

 

Before cracking down, I would sit down with her and warn her that things are going to change and that you would be working at consistently enforcing first time obedience and following through 100%. You could have her get up at a certain time, or she would accompany you to the school drop off for the other kids in her pajamas. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt for her to accompany you on that errand, since she is consistantly not getting her tasks done anyway. This way, she's not laying around in bed. Once she uses her time wisely, you could give her the privilege of trust back to be home and productive. Also, no work, no food. She even could lose the privilege of her privacy by temporarily moving in with the younger siblings and sharing with them. She could also be put in the position to serve others instead of expecting to be served herself. When a prideful or self serving attitude occurs, she can take over one of her sibling's chores as a consequence. Loss of "rights," privileges, and hard work serving others, are good teachers for those that think only of themselves.

 

Hope things get better!

[Brindee]

I agree with much of what was said. She's not respecting you and has too much freedom. It sounds like she'd do better on a schedule that is ok'd by your dh, you and her. THEN you have to follow through with it!

 

Otherwise, another thing I would add is to get your husband on board to support you and back you up on ideas and consequences! You two need to put up a united front, or this won't work!

 

My oldest went through this. He just wasn't able to wrap his brain around all that he needed to do, he was a teen so he was tired a lot, and he wasn't getting things accomplished! They say that during puberty "the lights are often on, but nobody's home!" So, we (my dh and I) sat down and had a talk with him and told him that things needed to change. The three of us worked through rules and consequences. We ended up with a schedule that was down to the minute---he THRIVED on it! He WANTED to get things done, he just didn't know how to go about it. We set an earlier bedtime since he was so tired, and he did much better after the first couple of weeks not liking it at all. "Allowing" him to have and follow a schedule that laid everything out helped him succeed and feel better about himself!

 

It was REALLY hard on me to follow through with that, so it was good discipline for me as well. But we did it, and worked through bumps and made it through the rest of the year in WAY better shape!

 

Best wishes!

[WTMCassandra]

Otherwise, another thing I would add is to get your husband on board to support you and back you up on ideas and consequences! You two need to put up a united front, or this won't work!

 

Yes, yes, yes. I forgot to mention this in my haste.

[Sunshine State Sue]

From the book:

Parents run into a big problem when they do not distinguish between psychological and negative relational consequences versus reality consequences. Life works on reality consequences. Psychological and negative relational consequences, such as getting angry, sending guilt messages, nagging, and withdrawing love, usually do not motivate people to change. If they do, the change is short-lived, directed only at getting the person to lighten up on the psychological pressure. True change usually comes only when someone's behavior causes him to encounter reality consequences like pain or losses of time, money, possessions, things he enjoys, and people he values.

 

My ds is not what I would call a naturally responsible child. He has a list of 12 "morning chores" to do posted on his bedroom door. Things like put the dirty clothes in the clothes basket, open your blinds, pick up the trash. It takes him less than 5 minutes to do these things. You would think that he would know to do these things since he's been told 500 million times! But, no. I finally decided that I would give him one hour from awakening to get it done. If it didn't get done, he would lose an hour of screen time (TV, video, computer) at my convenience. This is precious to him. Then, I enforced it amongst whining, complaining, stomping. But, 1-2 months later, he does it almost perfectly and rarely needs to be reminded.

 

For the first time this year, I have left my son (12yo) home alone with directions to complete some schoolwork. He knows that if he does not complete it, he will lose the privilege of staying home alone to do it and will instead bring himself and his schoolwork with me. He has never failed me yet.

 

Good luck!

[EKS]

Here is what we do. My son is just finishing 6th grade. You need to find something (or things) that she loves to do, can't do without, etc. For my son these things are TV, computer, and video games.

 

He is responsible for getting himself up, showered, dressed, fed, teeth brushed and ready to work by 7:45 on school mornings. This earns him some TV time.

 

Then I work with him for an hour or so and send him off with 2-3 hours worth of work to be done independently. If he finishes the work in a preset amount of time (I am *very* generous with the amount of time though he doesn't think so) he is allowed to convert TV time into computer time which he likes better than TV. After doing this 10 times he is allowed to rent an XBox machine and games from the video store for a weekend. This is really motivating for him.

 

Some parenting guru said that you have to find out what the kid's currency is.

 

Before we implemented this system he was a pain to wake up and he took absolutely forever to do his schoolwork every day. Some days he still takes forever but not nearly so often now.

 

I was getting stressed out just reading your post! Good luck with this and I hope you get it sorted out soon!

[LanaTron]

My dc are not that old, but I've certainly had times with my dc, especially #3, in which I've had to learn the hard way to do the things the other posters have said! ANd I still struggle with setting boundaries and sticking to them, but I get better at it as time goes on.

 

One thing I want to add, though, is not to let her cycles become an excuse for her behavior. It can be an explanation, but not an excuse.

 

On that topic, it is great she is taking the vitamins. You might add 1 caplet of a good quality fish oil, if she is not on that. Also, watch her diet, and this is something else for which you may have to set strict paramaters at first. Sugar, refined carbohydrates, and red meat can exaserbate PMS. (and if you already do this, kudos!)

 

Good luck!

[Kathy in MD]

Other than the sleeping in, you've got my 14yo ds! For the sleeping in, I suggest you start sending her to bed earlier, even if it's earlier than her younger siblings. You might even schedule an afternoon nap. My ds really needs lots of sleep, more than when he was younger. Be sure that her room is prepared for sleep. Teens are more sensitive to light and activity at night than children and adults. Have her skip TV, the computer and bright lights for about 1/2 hour before bed time.

 

I'll be trying many of the ideas mentioned here, but one thing my dh and I will be returning to is one-on-one time with our ds. We did this when he was younger with great success, but we let other things interfere. Basically once a week my dh will spend 1/2 hour with ds doing what (within reason) ds wants to do. I'll do the same. We'll also schedule more family time. Even though my ds is an only child, and we give up a lot for ds, this one-on-one time made a huge difference in his behavior. We still had problems with school work, but the family relationships were better.

[Katrina]

I like a lot of the responses so far. I agree with the tomato staking. Older kids really want their independence and taking it away can give them the proper motivation to improve. I have an 7th-8th dd, and in her point of view, one of the worst things I can do to her is tell her I can't depend her to do it alone and so I have to help her. Our biggest issue was her cleaning her room and making her bed. If I had the problem getting my dd out of bed I'd stand by her side until she got up, period. I agree that she should accompany you in the car in the mornings, pjs or no pjs.

 

I got tired of my kids losing things, so now they have to pay for the missing item out of their allowance. (even school books) It's worked wonders.

 

I'd recommend having a set schedule. Have assignments, due dates, tests, etc. She'll know in advance when her tests are, and if she's not ready too bad.

 

Ugh....all of a sudden I feel like I'm about to fall asleep so I'm hoping this post is coherent! If it's coming across wrong I don't mean it too, but I think it's about time for my nap! (I wish! :001_huh:)

 

Anyway, good luck!

[Catherine]

for my oldest, the child who has definitely taught me the most : ) it helped a lot to just cement those bonds. They tend to loosen during adolescence, and they still need so much love and affection from us. I had to remind myself that he is still a child, still very much in need of our approval and support, even though he looks much more like an adult now.

 

Remember the age may also affect what you see. I only homeschooled this child for 7th and 8th grade, and he is now back in high school. Truly, he was so changed by our two years together. He needed far more accountablility, close supervision, and now that he is back in school, he is thriving. I have been astounded at how much more mature, responsible and organized he is now. Part of that was growingup, part, being with us more, but this is all just to say--it's worth it! Stick to your guns-they WILL thank you for it.

[cricket1178]

I love all the responses so far. You have many options to choose from.:)

 

I would just add that school time around here is school time. We do not have visitors unless uninvited and then if they stay, I have to remind them that we are schooling. I also agree with having her do her work in the open. No hiding behind closed doors.

 

Give her an alarm clock that she has to set herself to get up. When you hear the alarm go off, give her 15 min. (or a time limit you set) and then she has to be up. Give her 15 min. more to be dressed, have her bed made, and be ready for breakfast. If she doesn't comply, there are consequences. Set the consequences and then follow through. There is no "I'll give you one more chance". She knows the rules, if she breaks them, she suffers the consequences. If she still breaks the rules after suffering said consequences, stiffen the punishment. Maybe give her extra chores?

 

Also, until she has learned how to be disciplined, I agree that you are going to have to provide more supervision for her which means giving up your volunteer work or arranging with your dh to supervise the schooling.

There is no way around it, until she has learned you mean business and she is able to take responsibility for herself, you are going to have to be there to see that she's doing it or you'll have to send her to ps or private school.

 

I hope things turn around, but I understand what it is like. I have graduated to boys, and they had to learn Mom meant it. It was a struggle, but it was worth it.;)