Aelwydd Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) I realize that Socialism and Communism are about as far left as you can get. There are some socialist that have been elected to public office in this country. They just can't call themselves that because as said in a previous post socialism is a bad word. What worries me and others that are on the far right is watching our country quickly moving towards that. And yes many of the Republicans have pushed us in that direction as well. Historically the US was founded on principles of limited government and individual liberty. Some of us hate to see it move away from that and it has been happening for decades. I really think we might as well kiss the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence goodbye because they are no longer part of our government. I have talked to people who have left oppressive communist or socialist countries, they are the people that really appreciate the freedoms we are supposed to have. I am not trying to get into a major debate here, I am answering in response to the claims that the US doesn't know what liberal is. The only thing that I didn't realize is that apparently Canada and Australia are far more left that the left in the US. The problem is, totalitarianism is not the sole property of the extreme left. What many Americans do not understand is that it exists in the extreme right, as well--in the form of fascism. Also, a theocratic state like Iran or Saudi Arabia is another example of extreme conservatism. Americans, in basically deciding to completely discount any and all forms of liberal government, now have to redefine what "center" means. And as that center is now defined as what would be strongly conservative even a mere generation ago, it means that the new conservative is so far right, as to begin embracing totalitarian thinking. How does such thinking take shape in practical politics? Well, by legislating away freedoms of individuals, like tapping of phones, or by trying to attack and take down the NPR, which is one of the last remaining media voices that tolerated an even remotely liberal viewpoint. Also, there is a decided move to erase the boundaries between church and state; so that movements in certain neo-religious groups, that laud the ideal of women staying at home, for example, end up getting air time and funding from government sources. The purpose of which, is to push a more religio-conservative agenda that emphasizes different public roles for men and women. This is done by a relentless push as state-by-state, neo-religious groups have been successful in restricting not just abortion rights, but now going after pregnant women's rights, by criminalizing any lifestyle choice that may affect the baby. This is new territory, and therefore, the sky's the limit. This is why there are increasing numbers of women who have been prosecuted for refusing c-sections, BTW. There is a clear doctrine about women as reproductive agents for the state that is driving these and other regulations. I know that many conservatives will support the above because they will say they are protecting the rights of the baby. But the problem is, a citizen is not made until a person is actually born, and these laws are taking away rights from actual citizens, and using the platform of unborn rights, to widen that circle until it is eclipsing even things like, how you choose to give birth, and what mental health drugs you may be allowed to take. A liberal voice counteracts these and other encroachments into the individual sphere by the right, and the right, would also balance the left. The problem is, we don't have a left voice anymore. We've demonized it, and called it "unAmerican" and made it out to be the equivalent of traitors and terrorists. To show you how far "right" we've come, if I told you 4 years ago that the current President in office would: -Temporarily close Guantanimo, but then reopen tribunals there -Ramp up American military presence in Afghanistan for the first 2.5 years of office -Sign a bill into law allowing citizens to now carry guns in national parks -The same bill as above also introduced new credit regulations that make obtaining and using credit by stay-at-home parents (mostly women) difficult -Agree to opening up the East Coast to new oil wells (temporarily put on hold for 6 months after BP, but then lifted) -Sign a health care bill into law that requires Americans to purchase health insurance from private, for-profit corporations -Seek to block the courts from enforcing the ban on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" -And now, he's willing to cut Social Security, Medicaid, and other entitlement programs in order to reach an agreement with the Republicans. If I had told you that 4 years ago, it would have sounded more like McCain would be the one elected, not Obama, especially if one believed all the campaign hype about him being some crazy leftist socialist. But, all that is just a sampling of many acts where he has taken a very decided turn to the right in his Presidency. Obama is not liberal, not even close. He's just a Republican, circa 1984 or so. So, if he's yesterday's conservative, then what does today's conservative politician look like? It's someone who seeks to replace the State with a weird conglomeration of power made up by corporations (dictating to politicians how to govern through money), government (acting as the voice of moral authority in matters that affect economy, such as population control, etc.), and military (used as the arm of the corporate-government to intimidate and forcefully obtain resources needed to feed the corporate beast that is the USA). When the conservative politician says he want's government out of the lives of citizens, he means corporate citizens. In an interesting aside, did you know that early on in the Third Reich, German Jews who sought to leave, had to give up an average of 90% of their assets to the state, and they had to pay taxes for both that year, and the following year (when they wouldn't even be in Germany) before they could go? Did you know that the U.S. is the only western nation that still taxes its citizens even when they are living and working full time in another country? Did you know that recently, the U.S. has begun charging citizens who wish to surrender their citizenship, for the right to do so? Did you know that the U.S. IRS can continue to audit ex-citizens for up to 10 years after? Heavy-handed and increasingly punitive government is hardly the sole property of socialist and communist governments. We are decidedly a much more conservative government than pretty much all our Western European peers, more than Canada, more than Australia, Great Britain, and so forth. Yet, there has been an increasing amount of intrusiveness into the personal lives of American citizens, with the justification that "terrorists out there who hate us" are the reason why. We have lost our political balance, and in doing so, we have lost our political health. We are teetering very close now, to the edge of hard line religio-conservative fascism, and it's frankly, the reason why John and I feel such an urgency to get out now, while we still can. Edited July 21, 2011 by Aelwydd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 The problem is, totalitarianism is not the sole property of the extreme left. What many Americans do not understand is that it exists in the extreme right, as well--in the form of fascism. Also, a theocratic state like Iran or Saudi Arabia is another example of extreme conservatism. We have lost our political balance, and in doing so, we have lost our political health. We are teetering very close now, to the edge of hard line religio-conservative fascism, and it's frankly, the reason why John and I feel such an urgency to get out now, while we still can. :iagree: Opposing viewpoints and differing perspectives are so important to keeping debate and decision making honest and healthy. Unfortunately, our two main parties are really nothing more than shades of each other regardless of what propaganda they spew to the public...it seems to be an allusion for the benefit of the masses. Dh and I are also trying to position ourselves to get out...somewhere developing, somewhere with some hope of a life not completely controlled by a heavy-handed government. It's not easy getting into this position or making the tough choices that make this a possibility. Faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelwydd Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Dh and I are also trying to position ourselves to get out...somewhere developing, somewhere with some hope of a life not completely controlled by a heavy-handed government. It's not easy getting into this position or making the tough choices that make this a possibility. I wish good luck to you and your dh. It is very difficult to get into position, like you said, to move, if you're not wealthy or have connections. We're being hit with a difficult economic situation that makes it very hard to save money, so it's requiring some hard choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I wish good luck to you and your dh. It is very difficult to get into position, like you said, to move, if you're not wealthy or have connections. We're being hit with a difficult economic situation that makes it very hard to save money, so it's requiring some hard choices. We looked to get out years ago and realized we wouldn't be able to afford it. We'd have to have 800k liquid to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 The problem is, totalitarianism is not the sole property of the extreme left. What many Americans do not understand is that it exists in the extreme right, as well--in the form of fascism. Also, a theocratic state like Iran or Saudi Arabia is another example of extreme conservatism. Americans, in basically deciding to completely discount any and all forms of liberal government, now have to redefine what "center" means. And as that center is now defined as what would be strongly conservative even a mere generation ago, it means that the new conservative is so far right, as to begin embracing totalitarian thinking. If I had told you that 4 years ago, it would have sounded more like McCain would be the one elected, not Obama, especially if one believed all the campaign hype about him being some crazy leftist socialist. But, all that is just a sampling of many acts where he has taken a very decided turn to the right in his Presidency. Obama is not liberal, not even close. He's just a Republican, circa 1984 or so. Heavy-handed and increasingly punitive government is hardly the sole property of socialist and communist governments. We are decidedly a much more conservative government than pretty much all our Western European peers, more than Canada, more than Australia, Great Britain, and so forth. Yet, there has been an increasing amount of intrusiveness into the personal lives of American citizens, with the justification that "terrorists out there who hate us" are the reason why. We have lost our political balance, and in doing so, we have lost our political health. We are teetering very close now, to the edge of hard line religio-conservative fascism, and it's frankly, the reason why John and I feel such an urgency to get out now, while we still can. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) I realize that Socialism and Communism are about as far left as you can get. There are some socialist that have been elected to public office in this country. They just can't call themselves that because as said in a previous post socialism is a bad word. What worries me and others that are on the far right is watching our country quickly moving towards that. And yes many of the Republicans have pushed us in that direction as well. Historically the US was founded on principles of limited government and individual liberty. Some of us hate to see it move away from that and it has been happening for decades. I really think we might as well kiss the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence goodbye because they are no longer part of our government. I have talked to people who have left oppressive communist or socialist countries, they are the people that really appreciate the freedoms we are supposed to have. I am not trying to get into a major debate here, I am answering in response to the claims that the US doesn't know what liberal is. The only thing that I didn't realize is that apparently Canada and Australia are far more left that the left in the US. You are NOWHERE NEAR even taking a quick glance at the left. Really. Trust me on this.:001_smile: You may be moving a little more to the centre-right, but that's it. Edited July 21, 2011 by WishboneDawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 This makes Murdoch seem even more despicable and unprincipled. $$$ is what matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 According to the Wikipedia entry on Murdoch, he owned Fox News from its inception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 We are teetering very close now, to the edge of hard line religio-conservative fascism, . You can not be serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 According to the Wikipedia entry on Murdoch, he owned Fox News from its inception. Really? I had no idea he's had it all along. :glare: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffeefreak Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 We looked to get out years ago and realized we wouldn't be able to afford it. We'd have to have 800k liquid to do so. I wish good luck to you and your dh. It is very difficult to get into position, like you said, to move, if you're not wealthy or have connections. We're being hit with a difficult economic situation that makes it very hard to save money, so it's requiring some hard choices. :iagree: Opposing viewpoints and differing perspectives are so important to keeping debate and decision making honest and healthy. Unfortunately, our two main parties are really nothing more than shades of each other regardless of what propaganda they spew to the public...it seems to be an allusion for the benefit of the masses. Dh and I are also trying to position ourselves to get out...somewhere developing, somewhere with some hope of a life not completely controlled by a heavy-handed government. It's not easy getting into this position or making the tough choices that make this a possibility. Faith Leave the country? Would you ladies want to renounce your citizenship or simply live somewhere else? I ask the question with all due respect and curiosity because I often thought about living overseas, but never changing my citizenship. I guess I still believe we have the best country around (no offense to my Canadian and Australian friends:D), but I also love Europe and feel at home there. Blessings! Dorinda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 We looked to get out years ago and realized we wouldn't be able to afford it. We'd have to have 800k liquid to do so. If you did have the 800K, where would you go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Leave the country? Would you ladies want to renounce your citizenship or simply live somewhere else? I ask the question with all due respect and curiosity because I often thought about living overseas, but never changing my citizenship. I guess I still believe we have the best country around (no offense to my Canadian and Australian friends:D), but I also love Europe and feel at home there. Blessings! Dorinda We are seriously considering a move to Canada. BIL lives there! :D He's a dual citizen, married to a Canuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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