s/o LDS Garden of Eden

[I.Dup.]

Thank you all, this has been a very enlightening discussion for me (I know very little about LDS beliefs)

 

If I were curious about more things, like specific views on the after life, should I start a new thread? Or can I ask here?

[LittleIzumi]

Thank you all, this has been a very enlightening discussion for me (I know very little about LDS beliefs)

 

If I were curious about more things, like specific views on the after life, should I start a new thread? Or can I ask here?

 

I think you can ask away, as we've gotten off-topic already. :lol: You can also browse www.mormon.org, which has a lot of our basic beliefs spelled out, or http://lds.org/?lang=eng, which has pretty much everything (scriptures, writings of church leaders, etc).

[DianeW88]

Thank you all, this has been a very enlightening discussion for me (I know very little about LDS beliefs)

 

If I were curious about more things, like specific views on the after life, should I start a new thread? Or can I ask here?

 

Yes, please ask! We don't ever mind answering honest questions from others...especially when there is so much information out there about the LDS church that is not true. We're always happy to explain our beliefs. :)

[I.Dup.]

Cool. I've been directed to that site before, but I find it too overwhelming to search on a big religious website, LOL.

 

What are the LDS beliefs on the after life? Is this time on earth our only period of testing, and what do we get if we do a "good" job- whatever that means? Is there the threat of hell if we do not follow God?

[LittleIzumi]

Cool. I've been directed to that site before, but I find it too overwhelming to search on a big religious website, LOL.

 

What are the LDS beliefs on the after life? Is this time on earth our only period of testing, and what do we get if we do a "good" job- whatever that means? Is there the threat of hell if we do not follow God?

 

I will get a better answer in a minute. Baby is taking up my arm!

 

From mormon.org, "

Picture your hand inside a glove. The glove moves only when your hand does. Take your hand out and the glove sits lifeless on the table. This is an easy way to visualize what happens when you die. Imagine your body is the glove being operated by who you really are—your spirit. When you die your body gets left behind, lifeless like a glove, but your spirit lives forever.

Countless scriptures and personal accounts by prophets throughout time have told us this is true.

Our physical death isn’t the end, but rather is a step forward in Heavenly Father’s plan and a time of indescribable joy for the person making the transition.

When you’re the one left behind—the one losing a friend or loved one—the pain of that loss is very real. But there’s a lot of comfort in knowing you’ll see him or her again. And because of Christ’s death, at some point our spirit and body will be reunited (resurrected) and made perfect never to be separated again.

 

 

f you could have one wish, what would it be?

Most of us would probably say we want to live forever. That’s exactly what God gave to each of us when He sent His son, Jesus Christ, to earth to die for us and to atone for our sins. It’s called resurrection and everyone born on earth, even wicked people, will receive this gift of immortality (1 Corinthians 15:22).

On the third day after His Crucifixion, Jesus Christ became the first person to be resurrected. His spirit was reunited with His glorified, perfected body and He could no longer die. When Christ’s friends went to visit His tomb, angels said, “He is not here: for he is risen, as he said†(Matthew 28:6).

“Will I go to heaven?â€

 

Yes! God will judge all men fairly and reward them appropriately with a place within His kingdom."

[LittleIzumi]

Cool. I've been directed to that site before, but I find it too overwhelming to search on a big religious website, LOL.

 

What are the LDS beliefs on the after life? Is this time on earth our only period of testing, and what do we get if we do a "good" job- whatever that means? Is there the threat of hell if we do not follow God?

 

We believe that there are multiple degrees of glory--multiple levels of heaven, basically. Your actions here, based on the amount of knowledge you have received, is what you will be judged on. Those who never learned of Christ will not be in trouble for something they could not control. We believe in Hell more as a separation from God, and that it is locked from the inside--aka, anyone who is there truly chose to be there, as far from God as possible. We believe that any ordinances that are necessary that weren't performed while alive (like baptism) can be performed by proxy and will continue to be done during the Millennium until God's work with regards to that is finished, and then Judgment Day and resurrection and assignment to the various levels of heaven.

 

I'm going to post this now because I bet other people have posted while I did and I want to see what is left to say, lol.

[WishboneDawn]

Yes, please ask! We don't ever mind answering honest questions from others...especially when there is so much information out there about the LDS church that is not true. We're always happy to explain our beliefs. :)

 

Indeed, you guys have been extremely generous, gracious and forgiving. I've enjoyed this thread a lot and am coming away with a lot not only to think about but that may enlighten my faith.

 

Thank you so much ladies! :001_smile:

[Heidi]

Cool. I've been directed to that site before, but I find it too overwhelming to search on a big religious website, LOL.

 

What are the LDS beliefs on the after life? Is this time on earth our only period of testing, and what do we get if we do a "good" job- whatever that means? Is there the threat of hell if we do not follow God?

 

Can I just direct you here: http://lds.org/study/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng&query=three+degrees+glory

 

It is a short and clear explanation on the three degrees of glory, as well as perdition. Click on the "view more" to read on the entire topic.

 

If you go to lds.org and use the search engine at the top, I find that the easiest way to get clear answers. However, feel free ask here too, of course.

 

Hell is viewed differently by LDS. Here is a great explanation from lds.org:

 

"Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).

 

Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46)."

Edited July 17, 2011 by hmsmith

[usetoschool]

What are the LDS beliefs on the after life? Is this time on earth our only period of testing, and what do we get if we do a "good" job- whatever that means? Is there the threat of hell if we do not follow God?

 

Hell, as in fire and brimstone - no. More like less of a reward. All of the places we could end up, except one which I will talk about in another paragraph, are kingdoms of glory. The highest level/greatest reward is the Celestial Kingdom where we will return to live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and be able to be married and have eternal life (families).

 

"Below" that is the Terrestrial Kingdom where Heavenly Father does not go but the Savior does and those there are good, honorable people who just didn't accept the truth but lived good lives.

 

"Below" that is the Telestial Kingdom where the people are liars, cheaters, immoral, etc. 1 Corinthians 15 talks about degrees of glory a little bit.

 

All of it is based on our choices and what we do and accept in this life. We do not believe in works alone but need the atonement to fully complete what we have become while we are here. Neither is it grace alone because that flies in the face of our agency - kind of like Jesus Christ standing outside the door knocking and we have to make the choice to let him and become what he wants us to be. He won't just let himself in and do it for us (that was Satan's plan that was talked about it before).

 

This life is all about who and what we choose and in a way we choose where we will be happy and comfortable in the after life. I have some friends who really don't want eternal life (as in with God and eternal families) and are fine with a lesser reward. Seems weird to me but that is what they are after and will be perfectly happy in the Terrestrial Kingdom as a servant of God.

 

The "hell" portion we would call outer darkness and that is where Satan and his minions will end up along with those who chose to follow him with a full knowledge of what they were getting into and with a denial of the testimony that they received from the Holy Ghost of the the truth about the Savior. The atonement pays the price for our sins and mistakes if we accept Christ but those in outer darkness will be paying the price for their own sins.

 

eta: I forgot part of your question. We were tested in the pre-mortal life as well. One third of the spirit children of our Heavenly Father thought Satan's plan was a good idea and will never have bodies because they followed him. The very fact that you have a body and are here is an indication that you "passed" the first test. This life is a further test to see what we will choose when we are out of the presence of our Heavenly Father. Of course he doesn't leave us alone - we have scriptures, prophets, the Holy Ghost etc.

Edited July 18, 2011 by jcooperetc

[usetoschool]

Thank you. :) Are there any verses in the Bible (as in, the KJV, not the Joseph Smith scriptures) that agree with the LDS position of eternal marriage?

 

Also, how would/does the LDS church view the "quiverfull" concept- that God personally creates each child and we should accept each child conceived as a blessing?

 

I keep thinking about this question and the best answer I can come up with that has references to the bible is a cut and paste quote from the Bible Dictionary that we use:

 

"Marriage

Marriage. Among the Israelites, marriage was usually preceded by a formal act of betrothal, such a contract, when once entered on, being regarded as absolutely binding. On the marriage day, the bride was escorted to her husband’s home by a procession consisting of her own companions and the “friends of the bridegroom,†or “children of the bride-chamber,†some carrying torches, and others myrtle branches and chaplets of flowers. When she reached the house, words such as “Take her according to the law of Moses and of Israel†were spoken, the pair were crowned with garlands, and a marriage deed was signed. After the prescribed washing of hands and benediction, the marriage supper was held. For a year after marriage a man was released from all military service. The gospel law of marriage is partially given in Matt. 19:4–9; Mark 10:2–12; Rom. 7:2; 1 Cor. 7. Its meaning, as symbolizing the union between Christ and the Church, is explained in Eph. 5:22–32.

 

Latter-day revelation tells us that marriage under the law of the gospel and the holy priesthood is for eternity, and that men and women thus sealed in marriage continue to have children throughout eternity. Although this concept of marriage is not fully presented in our present Bible, traces of it are found in Matt. 16:16–19; 19:3–8; 22:23–30; and Moses 4:18. However, the fullest explanation is found in D&C 132."

 

I also read an interesting book that discussed some of the teachings in the Apocrypha (which we don't use but believe some of it may be accurate and inspired) that discuss temples and kingdoms of glory and such. And it partly goes back to the translations of translations where things get lost.

[Xuzi]

Cool. I've been directed to that site before, but I find it too overwhelming to search on a big religious website, LOL.

 

What are the LDS beliefs on the after life? Is this time on earth our only period of testing, and what do we get if we do a "good" job- whatever that means? Is there the threat of hell if we do not follow God?

This is a biiiiiiiig question. :lol: Little Izumi touched on a bit of it, and I'm going to try to expound on it as best I can (and cross my fingers that MamaSheep comes in and posts while I'm typing!)

 

Here's a diagram that I hope will prove helpful. (pretend it's a flannel graph :tongue_smilie:)

We start off in the pre-mortal existance. When we die we pass through the veil, which blocks our memories of our pre-existance, so that we're left to depend entirely upon faith. Our spirit joins with our body, we're born, live, and go through the trials and tribulations (and joys) of mortality. All are blessed with the "light of Christ" which directs us towards good, and hopefully someday leads us to the Gospel. Depending upon how much we know, depends on how harshly we'll be judged ("unto whom much is given, much is required"). Someone who had the gospel in their lives but sinned greatly against God and never asked for forgiveness will be judged more harshly than somone whose actions were a sin against God, except that they *didn't* know it was a sin, and didn't know about Christ, or the need for repentence, or anything like that.

 

When we die, those who accepted the Gospel and were baptized will go to Spirit Paradise, where we will live in joy and rest until the Day of Judgement, when we will be judged and given our Eternal reward.

 

Those who didn't accept the Gospel will go to Spirit Prison, which is not a pleasant place, but is where Christ has sent his angels to preach His Gospel (this is what we believe He was doing between His death and Resurrection), and spirits can accept the Gospel there. This is where our Temple work comes in. As Baptism is an essential saving ordinance, the Lord has established His Temples, where those already baptized can go and be baptized by proxy for those who have gone before who weren't baptized (or there's no record that they were baptized) prior to their passing from this life. Of course, with their agency still intact, a spirit for whom a proxy baptism is performed can still choose to accept or reject the work. If they accept it, then they are released from the Spirit Prison and enter into Spirit Paradise (can you get a glimpse now into why we're so big on geneology? ;) ).

 

In the Last Days there will be a Resurrection, where all Spirits will be rejoined with their Resurrected and perfected bodies, never again to be seperated. Jesus Christ will reign upon the earth for 1000 years, Satan and his followers will be bound, and the work of the Lord will go forward. (at this time, we believe that every.last.person will be given an opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel of Christ. At Judgement, no body will be able to say "I didn't know you".)

 

At judgement Satan will be utterly destroyed, and the Lord will judge our hearts, and we will be given our just reward which will one of 4 options:

 

Celestial Kingdom, for those who accepted the Gospel, were baptized and recieved the other ordinances of the Temple, who "endured to the end", and accepted Jesus Christ's atonement for their sins; (this is also the only kingdom where marriages are eternal). This is where you live in the full presense of the Godhead, and have true Eternal Progression, learning and growing and gaining the wisdom of the Father.

 

The Terrestial Kingdom, for those who weren't as valiant in keeping their covenants or asking forgiveness for their sins. Also those who didn't accept the Gospel, but still lived good lives. Here you are in the presence of Jesus Christ, but you have no progression.

 

Or the Tellestial, for those who didn't accept the gospel at all and rejected the atonement, but fell short of entirely rejecting the Holy Spirit (the unpardonable sin). Here you will have the precence of the Holy Spirit, but again, no progression.

 

All of the Kingdoms of Glory are wonderful places, though of course the Celstial would be the most wonderful of all, because that is where the Father is.

 

Only those who Deny the Holy Spirit (Sons of Perdition) will end up in Outter Darkness, completely and utterly seperated from God. And in order to deny the Spirit, you have to first KNOW the Spirit, and have known the Truth and then utterly turned your back on it. (the best way I can think of to illustrate it is reversing the story of Saul/Paul, where if he had started out as a deciple of Christ, who had SEEN His ressurected person and been taught the Gospel, but then turned his back on it and began to fight against His Kingdom)

 

I'm sure I missed some things, and glossed over a few points, but this isn't a quick doctrine to explain, so this is my best shot. :tongue_smilie:

 

ETA: and I see MamaSheep hasn't replied, but some other posters have, so hopefully with our combined posts you'll be able to get a fairly acurate picture of LDS view of the afterlife. :)

Edited July 18, 2011 by Xuzi

[Shellydon]

Here is my question: Doesn't the LDS church teach that God was once a man and he progressed to become God?

 

In college I had several LDS friends and could never quite grasp this.

[MamaSheep]

This is a biiiiiiiig question. :lol: Little Izumi touched on a bit of it, and I'm going to try to expound on it as best I can (and cross my fingers that MamaSheep comes in and posts while I'm typing!)

 

...

 

ETA: and I see MamaSheep hasn't replied, but some other posters have, so hopefully with our combined posts you'll be able to get a fairly acurate picture of LDS view of the afterlife. :)

 

Sorry, MamaSheep has been at church and playing family games for a few hours. It will probably take me a few minutes to get caught up. Like others who've already posted, I'm happy to try to answer questions, but my next few days are looking kind of busy so I can't promise piles of time for this for a little while. Sorry.

 

There was a VEEERRY long thread a few months back in which we discussed LDS beliefs too, so that would be a good place to look for information as well: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233711

[I.Dup.]

Thank you all for answering my questions! I will check out the other links and posts you provided.

 

My question, now that I know more of your beliefs on the after life, would be how do you correlate this with what Jesus shared about hell and fire (adulterers, murderers, even those who are wrathful or whose eye caused them to sin would be thrown into the "eternal fire" etc)

 

Thanks again, off to check out those links.

[LittleIzumi]

Here is my question: Doesn't the LDS church teach that God was once a man and he progressed to become God?

 

In college I had several LDS friends and could never quite grasp this.

 

We believe that mankind, as the children of God, can eventually (if worthy) become like God. We also believe that is how God came to be God. God is our only God, the God of this Earth and our only Heavenly Father, but we do believe that He became a God through the same sort of process. As one of our past prophets, Lorenzo Snow, put it, "“As man is God once was; As God is, man may be." That's one of the rather mind-blowing bits for me (like trying to imagine eternity), going back to the origin of God. I don't pretend to be able to grasp all of it, lol, the origin of the origin of all mankind & the solar system & all that. Whew.

[LittleIzumi]

Thank you all for answering my questions! I will check out the other links and posts you provided.

 

My question, now that I know more of your beliefs on the after life, would be how do you correlate this with what Jesus shared about hell and fire (adulterers, murderers, even those who are wrathful or whose eye caused them to sin would be thrown into the "eternal fire" etc)

 

Thanks again, off to check out those links.

I think a lot of that refers to spirit prison, where they would go until Judgment Day but they could learn of the gospel of Christ there & possibly repent (depending on each situation). Also, with hell being separation from God, the telestial kingdom could qualify (God & Christ cannot dwell there with them).

[MamaSheep]

Here is my question: Doesn't the LDS church teach that God was once a man and he progressed to become God?

 

In college I had several LDS friends and could never quite grasp this.

 

 

There is a famous couplet by Lorenzo Snow (I think?) that goes "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become."

 

The idea that God was once a man is universal throughout all of Christianity. All Christians (as far as I know) believe that God took the form of man and dwelt on the Earth as Jesus Christ. He experienced pain and sorrow, peace and joy, temptation, betrayal, and all the other experiences that make up the condition in which "man now is". He walked on the Earth as one of us.

 

We've already talked about the second part of the couplet on this thread, so I won't belabor that point. If I understand you correctly your question is more about that first bit about God being a man.

 

The part where we differ from mainstream Christianity on this issue is that we believe that God, the Father (who we believe is a separate being from Jesus Christ, the Son) ALSO experienced mortality at some point in His eternal existence. This was taught by Joseph Smith:

 

" It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did..."

 

Now, one thing that stands out to me here is the phrase "the same as Jesus Christ Himself". We believe that Jesus was God (Jehovah, creator of the world) and a member of the divine Godhead BEFORE His mortal ministry. He did not BECOME God as a result of His mortal experiences. He was God before He was born, He was a God the whole time he lived as a man, and he is still God today and will be for all eternity. Also, Jesus lived a perfectly sinless life during His tenure in mortality, which is something none of the rest of us who have lived on this earth have been able to accomplish. So, if the Father also had a mortal experience as a man dwelling on an "earth", and He did it "the same as Jesus Christ", then He would have been God before that experience, during it, and after it. Our believe that the Father lived as a man at one point in His eternal existence in no way is meant to imply that He started out as a flawed, sinful, depraved being and "worked his way up" to being a God.

 

In the Bible, John recorded Jesus as saying:

 

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

 

Now, if we believe that Jesus was a God who became a man, took up a mortal body, died, was resurrected and ascended into heaven, AND if we take this verse from the gospel of John literally and understand it to mean that Jesus literally did NOTHING that He had not first seen the Father do, then it logically follows that at some point the Father became a man, took up a mortal body, died, was resurrected and ascended into heaven as well. And the Son observed and emulated this act of the Father.

 

Does that help?

[Heidi]

Here is my question: Doesn't the LDS church teach that God was once a man and he progressed to become God?

 

In college I had several LDS friends and could never quite grasp this.

 

In June of 1840, Lorenzo Snow (5th president of the church) declared, "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." A few other early leaders talked a little bit about it. Not much was said on the topic and it is not talked about at all today.

I know Christ was perfect and never sinned, yet learned line upon line during his life on earth. I know God the Father and Jesus Christ each have a resurrected body. How God the Father received His resurrected body, nothing is said.

I also know, like what was said earlier in the thread, that we can become gods, but not GOD Himself or usurp his power. He shares is glory with us.

[MamaSheep]

MamaSheep, when I said I would feel comfortable in those various mainstream churches, that had everything to do with truth, and nothing to do with feelings/preferences. Again, it's down to the core beliefs being so radically different.

 

My mistake, I apologize. And I agree that there are important differences. I think most of us LDS types tend to think we should be able to focus on the things we have in common, while still acknowledging the differences, and be able to work together on causes of common interest. For example, the LDS church works closely with Catholic Charities in disaster relief situations, and donates quite a lot to the Salvation Army. We have differences of belief with both of these organizations on certain important issues, but both sides are able to focus on the common cause of helping people in need and pool resources in order to meet the needs most efficiently. If we refused to work with anyone who had a different view of the nature of God, fewer people would be helped.

 

I think a lot of LDS homeschoolers feel similarly about education. While we would not want a "mainstream" Christian to be in charge of our children's religious training, and while we understand that a "mainstream" Christian would probably not want us to teach their children theology either, we tend to think that in many cases we can look past our differences and work together on the areas we DO have in common. Like math and English and a visit to a local historic site.

 

We're not saying there ARE no differences, so much as we are saying that we ALSO have a lot in common, and could pool resources in those areas.

[duckabell]

Thank you all for answering my questions! I will check out the other links and posts you provided.

 

My question, now that I know more of your beliefs on the after life, would be how do you correlate this with what Jesus shared about hell and fire (adulterers, murderers, even those who are wrathful or whose eye caused them to sin would be thrown into the "eternal fire" etc)

 

Thanks again, off to check out those links.

 

I haven't chimed in yet, but I am thinking of a scripture that relates to this very question. This is from Doctrine and Covenants Section 19 starting in verse 4. Doctrine and Covenants is a modern scripture that was revealed to Joseph Smith.

 

4) And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

 

5) Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

 

6) Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

 

7) Again, it is written eternal ****ation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

 

8) Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

 

9) I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

 

10) For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

 

11) Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

 

12) Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

 

13) Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

 

14) And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

 

15) Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

 

16) For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

 

17) But if they would not repent they must asuffer even as I;

 

18) Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

 

19) Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

 

20) Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

 

 

So from this scripture teaches that endless punishment is God's punishment, for Endless is his name. The way I understand it is that those who do not repent will suffer to the same degree of suffering which Christ suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane. So they will suffer the same as Christ but there will be an end to their punishment when it is complete. There is of course the exception of the Sons of Perdition, which have been previously mentioned, who will suffer for eternity.

[I.Dup.]

So would it be accurate to say the LDS view of "hell" is really more similiar to the Catholic view of purgatory- no real torment or fire? Just a place of "limbo" of sorts that they will eventually get out of, anyway?

 

Also, how would a person thinking of converting get over the fact that so much of your religion is based on what one man thinks he saw and heard from God? How do you know Joseph Smith was trustworthy, what was so special about him to base a whole religion around him? Lots of people think they get revelations and such from God, kwim? (I'm sorry, you probably hear these questions all the time, thank you for humoring me and answering :) )

[LittleIzumi]

So would it be accurate to say the LDS view of "hell" is really more similiar to the Catholic view of purgatory- no real torment or fire? Just a place of "limbo" of sorts that they will eventually get out of, anyway?

 

Also, how would a person thinking of converting get over the fact that so much of your religion is based on what one man thinks he saw and heard from God? How do you know Joseph Smith was trustworthy, what was so special about him to base a whole religion around him? Lots of people think they get revelations and such from God, kwim? (I'm sorry, you probably hear these questions all the time, thank you for humoring me and answering :) )

 

I am not very familiar with the Catholic version of purgatory, sorry :blush:. As for the second, lots and lots of reading about early church history (what Joseph Smith & others did, said, were seen doing, wrote, etc), and the scriptures (LDS scripture & Bible--I've also read the works of other religions) and lots of prayer, asking God if it is true or not. That is really the only way, IMO. It has to be based on study and faith. I can't convince you of the truth of it, and no human could--but the Spirit of God can testify of the truth to your heart after you have studied & pondered.

 

That said, this is my favorite quote about Joseph Smith on this topic, from a LDS apostle, Jeffrey Holland:

"May I refer to a modern “last days” testimony? When Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum started for Carthage to face what they knew would be an imminent martyrdom, Hyrum read these words to comfort the heart of his brother: “Thou hast been faithful; wherefore … thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.

“And now I, Moroni, bid farewell … until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ.” 7

 

A few short verses from the 12th chapter of Ether in the Book of Mormon. Before closing the book, Hyrum turned down the corner of the page from which he had read, marking it as part of the everlasting testimony for which these two brothers were about to die. I hold in my hand that book, the very copy from which Hyrum read, the same corner of the page turned down, still visible. Later, when actually incarcerated in the jail, Joseph the Prophet turned to the guards who held him captive and bore a powerful testimony of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. 8 Shortly thereafter pistol and ball would take the lives of these two testators.

 

As one of a thousand elements of my own testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon, I submit this as yet one more evidence of its truthfulness. In this their greatest—and last—hour of need, I ask you: would these men blaspheme before God by continuing to fix their lives, their honor, and their own search for eternal salvation on a book (and by implication a church and a ministry) they had fictitiously created out of whole cloth?

 

Never mind that their wives are about to be widows and their children fatherless. Never mind that their little band of followers will yet be “houseless, friendless and homeless” and that their children will leave footprints of blood across frozen rivers and an untamed prairie floor. 9 Never mind that legions will die and other legions live declaring in the four quarters of this earth that they know the Book of Mormon and the Church which espouses it to be true. Disregard all of that, and tell me whether in this hour of death these two men would enter the presence of their Eternal Judge quoting from and finding solace in a book which, if not the very word of God, would brand them as imposters and charlatans until the end of time? They would not do that! They were willing to die rather than deny the divine origin and the eternal truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

 

For 179 years this book has been examined and attacked, denied and deconstructed, targeted and torn apart like perhaps no other book in modern religious history—perhaps like no other book in any religious history. And still it stands. Failed theories about its origins have been born and parroted and have died—from Ethan Smith to Solomon Spaulding to deranged paranoid to cunning genius. None of these frankly pathetic answers for this book has ever withstood examination because there is no other answer than the one Joseph gave as its young unlearned translator. In this I stand with my own great-grandfather, who said simply enough, “No wicked man could write such a book as this; and no good man would write it, unless it were true and he were commanded of God to do so.” 10

Edited July 18, 2011 by LittleIzumi

[TexasRachel]

We start off in the pre-mortal existance. When we die are bornwe pass through the veil, which blocks our memories of our pre-existence.

 

Sorry, had to correct that mistype. I love this thread because it's been so nicely behaved. I would just like to throw out though, in case it's not obvious, that we don't believe that only LDS members will be in the celestial (highest) heaven. We readily accept that we don't know everything and that there are many things yet to be taught to us. What will happen in the millennium is everyone will be taught the entirety of the Father's plan and they will chose for themselves.

 

Can I ask though what thread this one spun off of?

[dangermom]

 

Also, how would a person thinking of converting get over the fact that so much of your religion is based on what one man thinks he saw and heard from God? How do you know Joseph Smith was trustworthy, what was so special about him to base a whole religion around him? Lots of people think they get revelations and such from God, kwim? (I'm sorry, you probably hear these questions all the time, thank you for humoring me and answering :) )

 

Joseph Smith said (pretty much) "Don't trust me; ask God." We believe in personal revelation. If you want to know if the LDS Church is truly what it claims to be, we'd say that you should study it and pray about it, and the Holy Ghost will testify to you of truth. That can be a long and difficult process (it seems to be very individual), but we do not ask you to put your trust in man--you should trust in God.

[MamaSheep]

I am very curious about LDS beliefs. I am still reading through this thread, but I have known about the importance LDS believers place on family (I find that inspiring, BTW) but I am wondering how this correlates with Jesus' own words: 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[b]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.†-Matt. 22

 

I know Joseph Smith was given his own gospel, but wouldn't the idea of eternal marriage contradict what Jesus himself said?

 

I'm sorry if this is redundant, I am still reading through the thread. :)

 

 

I thought I'd take a stab at addressing this marriage question in a little more depth. First, though, just a quick word about the bolded part. We believe the gospel given to Joseph Smith was the SAME gospel given by Jesus and the original apostles, not some other "new" gospel.

 

Ok...so moving on to marriage. Let's look at the passage in Matthew 22 a bit more closely from an LDS perspective. This is starting with verse 23.

 

¶The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

 

As others have noted, what the Sadducees are referring to here, where a man is obligated to marry his brother's widow, is the levirate marriage law as given in Deuteronomy 25:5-10. Note that at the end of verse 24 the Sadducees (who don't believe in resurrection anyway) acknowledge that the purpose of this levirate marriage is to "raise up seed unto his brother". In other words, a child of the marriage would be considered to be the child of the first husband.

 

25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

27And last of all the woman died also.

28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

 

Jesus says that they err in asking this question because they don't understand the scriptures or the power of God.

 

At the very beginning of scripture, in Genesis, Adam and Eve are joined as husband and wife by God, before the Fall, while they were still eternal beings. Marriage, in its original form, did not have an expiration date. It was an eternal arrangement between immortal beings. Also, there is no indication in the account of the Fall that this arrangement was in any way altered now that they could die. And in fact, in chapter 19 of Matthew Jesus had explained exactly this when the Pharisees were asking about divorce (bolded emphasis is mine):

 

4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

 

So according to Jesus, divorce was allowed under the law of Moses because of the "hardness of your hearts"--in other words because God knew mankind would sometimes mess up their marriages to the point where they needed to be ended. But FROM THE BEGINNING IT WAS NOT SO. From the beginning, marriages didn't end.

 

Another portion of scripture the Sadducees seemed to be failing to take into account was this passage from Ecclesiastes 3:14:

 

14I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

 

When a husband and wife are joined by the power and authority of God, the marriage lasts forever. ANYTHING God does shall be forever, and nothing can be added or taken away from it. The Sadducees did not understand that the scriptures showed marriage as an eternal arrangement "from the beginning", nor did they understand that death has no effect on the power of God. God's power is such that "whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever".

 

This is why a child of a levirate marriage was considered to be the child of the first husband. In the levirate marriage, the first husband is still the husband in the marriage even though his spirit has separated from his body in death and is awaiting the resurrection. The husband's brother is standing in for the husband in the capacity of a proxy to father children for his brother and to care for his brother's wife in his brother's absence. But the children are the husband's children because the brother is only the husband's proxy, and is in a temporary arrangement with the wife until the husband can resume his duties in person.

 

So going back to the verses you asked about in Matthew:

 

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

 

In the situation the Sadducees had asked about, the first husband is still the husband of the wife, even though all six of his brothers had taken turns standing in for him in the form of successive levirate marriages. The original marriage is intact because the husband and wife were joined by God, and what God does lasts forever. In order for the woman to be the wife of one of the other brothers in the resurrection, that original marriage would need to be severed, and a new marriage would need to take place. However, Jesus says that in the resurrection they will neither marry (the process of a man taking a wife) nor be given in marriage (the process of a woman becoming a wife).

 

In LDS belief, questions of marital status need to be resolved prior to the resurrection, because no new marriages will be contracted afteward. However, marriages that were entered into properly--solemnized by one who has been given authority and power to 'bind' on earth and have that binding remain in effect in heaven (as was given to Peter as described in Matthew 18:18), and therefore "joined by God"--will remain intact into eternity as was intended "from the beginning" according to scripture.

 

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

 

To me what this says is that while we may consider people whose spirits have been separated from their bodies to be DEAD, to God they are still living and they never left His jurisdiction. He is the God of ALL the living, whether they live in the pre-mortal realm, live as mortal humans on earth, live as disembodied spirits awaiting resurrection, or live as resurrected beings. To God, there is no "interruption" of LIFE, and therefore no reason to consider a marriage as having ended due to death.

[MamaSheep]

Thank you. :) Are there any verses in the Bible (as in, the KJV, not the Joseph Smith scriptures) that agree with the LDS position of eternal marriage?

 

Also, how would/does the LDS church view the "quiverfull" concept- that God personally creates each child and we should accept each child conceived as a blessing?

 

I think the green verses above are a good start on verses in the Bible that agree with the LDS position of eternal marriage. A couple more verses that comes to mind off the top of my head:

 

1 Peter 3:7 "Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as beingheirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered."

 

1 Corinthians 11:11 "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord."

 

Also the one I just referred to above, but didn't quote: Matthew 18:18 "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

 

I especially like that one in Peter that indicates that Eternal Life (the kind of life we can only receive through God's grade) is received jointly between husband and wife.

 

I will say, though, that I am already aware that Christians of other faiths generally understand these verses to mean something else, so there's no need for anyone to point this out. :)

 

As far as your other question goes, children are definitely seen as a blessing and a joy in LDS doctrine and culture. As others have said, the number of children a couple might have, and the timing of conception, is something that is so personal that we believe it is best left between the couple and the Lord. Birth control is generally viewed as a personal choice, again, one to be made prayerfully with husband and wife seeking the will of the Lord in the matter. Abortion is considered to be a very serious matter, only acceptable to ANY degree in circumstances such as pregnancies conceived through rape or incest, and when the mother's life is endangered by continuing the pregnancy. However, even in those kinds of circumstances it is not viewed as an automatic thing, but as something that should be prayerfully weighed between the couple and the Lord. It is definitely NOT something to be done casually. So we do very much believe that the Lord should be directing our decisions regarding family size. For some families that means consulting with Him about the timing of birth control measures, and for others that means not using any bc measures at all. A couple who decided to just let things take their course and accept any child who happened along with joy and gratitude would definitely "fit in" among the LDS.

 

I hope this helps with your questions.

 

Amy

:)

[meggie]

So would it be accurate to say the LDS view of "hell" is really more similiar to the Catholic view of purgatory- no real torment or fire? Just a place of "limbo" of sorts that they will eventually get out of, anyway?

 

Also, how would a person thinking of converting get over the fact that so much of your religion is based on what one man thinks he saw and heard from God? How do you know Joseph Smith was trustworthy, what was so special about him to base a whole religion around him? Lots of people think they get revelations and such from God, kwim? (I'm sorry, you probably hear these questions all the time, thank you for humoring me and answering :) )

 

Someone more eloquent than I can talk about purgatory. Although I had a friend in HS who said our spirit world was similar to their view of purgatory. Whether that statement is true or not, I have no idea. I'm not really familiar with Catholic purgatory and I'm not sure how familiar she was with the spirit world.

 

But since I know more about LDS history, that's what I'll talk about. Enough things make sense logically. Joseph Smith's mother wrote a book about him. She talks about what he was like as a child and adolescent. He was not a liar. When he told his family what happened, they believed him. I don't know that many 14 year olds could tell a story like that and have their own family believe them.

 

Second, it's not all that unheard of; Moses saw a burning bush, Samuel heard a voice. Visions do happen. And yes, I'm with you, I do believe most of them are fake. (ETA: Oops, poorly worded. I do believe the visions in the Bible actually happened. I do believe in Joseph Smith's visions. I do believe there are other people throughout history who really had visions. But for the most part, I do believe a lot of people are making them up/lying/deceived. I follow the Matthew 7:15-20 "by their fruits ye shall know them")

 

Third, according to him, he only had basic reading, writing, and math skills. He came from a poor farming family. They didn't have much education. Yet he somehow managed to translate and publish a book that no one with that little education could have ever pulled off. His own wife Emma even said he couldn't write a well worded letter on his own.

 

Fourth, the Book of Mormon has 11 other witnesses besides Joseph Smith. Three of those witnesses claim to have seen the plates, seen an angel and hear the voice of God testifying that it had been translated by the power of God. Eight different witnesses claim to have seen the plates and look at them without the heavenly messenger or voice. Out of those 11 men, 8 would fall away from the church (at least 2 came back, but I'm not sure about any of the others). Even when they were no longer members of the Church, not one would ever deny that they had seen the plates and/or seen the angel and hear the voice of God. And believe me, it would have been greatly to their advantage if they had. Their testimonies can be found here.

 

Fifth, 11 other men who never deny their testimony, claim that Joseph had an obscene amount of gold (the gold plates). And he and his family were very poor. And yet he never used it for financial gain.

 

Eek, there is so much. But in the end, it does come down to faith and a personal revelation. Nothing I've said here could be enough to "convince" someone logically. It could be enough to make them think about it more or start to wonder if it's true, but even that could be rationalized away.

 

If you want to know more about the History of the Church you could read this book. It's our manual for LDS history. I would also recommend the biography by his mother. The leading authority on Joseph Smith's history is Richard Bushman who wrote this book. Others might have good recommendations.

Edited July 18, 2011 by meggie

[MamaSheep]

So would it be accurate to say the LDS view of "hell" is really more similiar to the Catholic view of purgatory- no real torment or fire? Just a place of "limbo" of sorts that they will eventually get out of, anyway?

 

Also, how would a person thinking of converting get over the fact that so much of your religion is based on what one man thinks he saw and heard from God? How do you know Joseph Smith was trustworthy, what was so special about him to base a whole religion around him? Lots of people think they get revelations and such from God, kwim? (I'm sorry, you probably hear these questions all the time, thank you for humoring me and answering :) )

 

Other people have already given good answers to this. I just wanted to point out that you could ask the exact same question about Noah and Abraham and Moses (just as examples), and really even about Jesus if you didn't already believe.

 

How would a person get over the fact that the only reason to get on the ark was because of what Noah thought he saw and heard from God? How do we know that Abraham was trustworthy? What was so special about Moses that a whole religion was based around him? How do you really KNOW that Jesus was the Son of God and that His death and resurrection really happened as they are reported? What makes Jesus, the son of the Hebrew God different, really, from Heracles or Perseus, sons of the Greek god Zeus?

 

The same Source that testifies to me of the truth of Jesus' claims, and the validity of Moses's visions, and the reality of Abraham's covenant with God, and so forth--the same Source testifies to me of the truth of Joseph Smith's claims. As Jesus taught, the Spirit of truth "will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13). And "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you". (Matthew 7:7) And also, from Luke 11:11-13, "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

[I.Dup.]

Thank you all :) You have definitely helped answer my questions!!

[meggie]

Also I really like this interview by Professor Steven Harper of BYU. He's the man I took my LDS history class from and can I just say how amazing he is? He sure knows his stuff. He talks about how he wants his students to make him verify his facts. He doesn't just want them to passively accept everything he says, he wants them to question what he knows and how he knows it. And learning is an exercise in study AND faith. I think that's very important. That's probably what I was trying to get at in my last post. In any kind of learning you need to study and you need to have faith.

[Shellydon]

There is a famous couplet by Lorenzo Snow (I think?) that goes "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become."

 

The idea that God was once a man is universal throughout all of Christianity. All Christians (as far as I know) believe that God took the form of man and dwelt on the Earth as Jesus Christ. He experienced pain and sorrow, peace and joy, temptation, betrayal, and all the other experiences that make up the condition in which "man now is". He walked on the Earth as one of us.

 

We've already talked about the second part of the couplet on this thread, so I won't belabor that point. If I understand you correctly your question is more about that first bit about God being a man.

 

The part where we differ from mainstream Christianity on this issue is that we believe that God, the Father (who we believe is a separate being from Jesus Christ, the Son) ALSO experienced mortality at some point in His eternal existence. This was taught by Joseph Smith:

 

" It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did..."

 

Now, one thing that stands out to me here is the phrase "the same as Jesus Christ Himself". We believe that Jesus was God (Jehovah, creator of the world) and a member of the divine Godhead BEFORE His mortal ministry. He did not BECOME God as a result of His mortal experiences. He was God before He was born, He was a God the whole time he lived as a man, and he is still God today and will be for all eternity. Also, Jesus lived a perfectly sinless life during His tenure in mortality, which is something none of the rest of us who have lived on this earth have been able to accomplish. So, if the Father also had a mortal experience as a man dwelling on an "earth", and He did it "the same as Jesus Christ", then He would have been God before that experience, during it, and after it. Our believe that the Father lived as a man at one point in His eternal existence in no way is meant to imply that He started out as a flawed, sinful, depraved being and "worked his way up" to being a God.

 

In the Bible, John recorded Jesus as saying:

 

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

 

Now, if we believe that Jesus was a God who became a man, took up a mortal body, died, was resurrected and ascended into heaven, AND if we take this verse from the gospel of John literally and understand it to mean that Jesus literally did NOTHING that He had not first seen the Father do, then it logically follows that at some point the Father became a man, took up a mortal body, died, was resurrected and ascended into heaven as well. And the Son observed and emulated this act of the Father.

 

Does that help?

 

In June of 1840, Lorenzo Snow (5th president of the church) declared, "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." A few other early leaders talked a little bit about it. Not much was said on the topic and it is not talked about at all today.

I know Christ was perfect and never sinned, yet learned line upon line during his life on earth. I know God the Father and Jesus Christ each have a resurrected body. How God the Father received His resurrected body, nothing is said.

I also know, like what was said earlier in the thread, that we can become gods, but not GOD Himself or usurp his power. He shares is glory with us.

 

We believe that mankind, as the children of God, can eventually (if worthy) become like God. We also believe that is how God came to be God. God is our only God, the God of this Earth and our only Heavenly Father, but we do believe that He became a God through the same sort of process. As one of our past prophets, Lorenzo Snow, put it, "“As man is God once was; As God is, man may be." That's one of the rather mind-blowing bits for me (like trying to imagine eternity), going back to the origin of God. I don't pretend to be able to grasp all of it, lol, the origin of the origin of all mankind & the solar system & all that. Whew.

 

 

So God was once human then became God and created (re-created) humans? Is that what you are saying? Just trying to clarify.

[MamaSheep]

So God was once human then became God and created (re-created) humans? Is that what you are saying? Just trying to clarify.

 

The problem is that there is very little in the way of clarity in this area. Not much has been revealed, and the church doesn't like to go beyond what is revealed. There are some areas where God has not yet chosen to shine a bright light. We might see clearly up to a certain point, but after that we can only speculate about what lies beyond. And church members do tend to speculate rather freely. Much of what has been said on this topic, even by early LDS church leaders, falls into the category of speculation. And they'd be the first to admit it.

 

However, as I said in my earlier post, if Jesus truly did nothing He hadn't seen the Father do, as the Bible says, then it stands to reason that at some point Jesus "saw" the Father enter into a mortal experience through the process of birth, go through some sort of mortal life (presumably without sin, as Jesus did, since Jesus was doing what He saw the Father do), experience death and resurrection and so forth. As I said, though, if Jesus did only what the Father had done before Him, and if Joseph Smith was right when he said that, "God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did," then the Father was already God when He became man, just as Jesus was already God when He became man.

 

So the progression would be that the Father was always God, then became man (without ceasing to be God--just like Jesus), then returned to heaven, still God but with the addition of a perfected, glorified, immortal, resurrected physical body (like Jesus did). At some point, God had spirit children (don't ask by what process, or what the timing was on this, that's something else He hasn't shared with us). Christ's divine Firstborn Son, a member of the Godhead, was chosen to be the Savior of the world. Then He helped create the world. When it was time, the Son entered into mortality through the process of birth into a body, the mother of which was the virgin Mary, and the father of which was God, the Father (thus becoming the Only Begotten Son of the Father). Once again God became man, the Son following in the pattern he'd observed in His Father. And that man, Jesus, fully human (while still fully divine) experienced mortality, death, and resurrection, and returned to heaven to sit again in His place at the right hand of the Father.

 

What happened BEFORE the Father experienced mortality? We don't know. (And really all we know about the Father's mortal experience is that there was such a thing. We have NO details.) How did God get to be God? We don't know. What will happen in the eternities AFTER this life? Other than a broad general outline, we don't really know. God gives us the most information about the time we're in here and now, and what we need to be doing in the here and now. He lets us know there was a before and there will be an after because it helps give perspective to the here and now. But He doesn't give us details that will serve no purpose other than to distract and confuse us.

 

I'm sorry not to be able to be more help, but you are asking us to clarify things about which there are no real clear-cut answers in LDS theology. And to us, this is not really one of those "salvation issue" hills to die on.

[TKDmom]

Can I ask though what thread this one spun off of?

 

It's from this one.