i.love.lucy Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 YES! I feel put down when friends tell me, "I just love Jesus. All that other stuff doesn't matter." I love Jesus too but I like to study these things and have a need to rectify in my mind what are preceived discrepancies. I have never studied so much than when I am wrestling with these ideas. It sparks me afresh to study. I do get tired sometimes but it's not wearing on my faith. I have seen so much scripture used out of context and abused so it really does matter what is there. I don't want to stay at a first tier understanding of scripture. I desire the deeper levels. :iagree::iagree::iagree: LOL. Wow. What you believe on the issue of dispensationalist or covenant theology permeates the Christian culture more than some of you might think. For example the Left Behind books are dispensationalist. Either you believe that version of end times events is plausible or not. If you didn't believe that way I don't imagine you'd encourage your children to read the young child versions (or maybe you would. I don't know). It came up frequently on my last trip home. My parents are dispie and I was raised dispie and they were rather surprised that I hadn't gone into a detailed description of the rapture and tribulation with my children. I explained that we've talked about Christ's second coming and what heaven will be like, etc but haven't covered specifically the doctrine of a rapture of the church or a 7yrs tribulation. (#1 because it scared the crap out of me as a child and #2 because we don't believe events will look like anything in the Left Behind books). Bottom line, I think the issue is at least worth thinking about and wrestling with. Hubby and I are Reformed and we do lean towards Covenant theology, BUT we attend a nondenominational church that is dispensationalist. It hasn't been an issue. This is definitely a secondary doctrinal issue, in our opinion. I hope my children learn a balanced view of it. That they read Scripture and understand that CHRIST COMES BACK and those who are part of his kingdom will live with him forever. I hope they are gracious to those believe differently then they do on the subject. Whether it is a dispie, a covenant theology, or new covenant theology. Whether amill, premill, or post mill. So. wise. :) I am solidly reformed and we are members of a Reformed So Baptist Church. But we've only been there a year or so (since our decent to the dark side;)) so I am not sure yet where further studies of all this will go. My dh adores John MacArthur so he might argue for the dispie side, but when I read that chart I see things on both sides I believe. DRAT! More studying to do...:auto: Presbyterians are reformed covenental types, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I am at a fork in the road so to speak. I don't want a debate at all. I have a million questions. There are verses to back up both views. I lean more towards one view than the other, but I can't seem to figure out how to discern the truth. :confused: How can I biblically make a decision about my beliefs? I am praying about this as well. This decision will either keep my family at our church or we'll be looking elsewhere. Dispensationalist and Reformed speaks to two entirely different subjects. There are Dispensationlist Reformed folk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesmere Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Maybe it is just me, but this came across as condescending. FWIW, I didn't think it was condescending. I read it as just asking, as there is a big difference between someone who doesn't know what they believe yet or knows but hasn't found the label for it. But that's just my opinion. Tone is hard to read, and I'm not saying I know for sure. But that's how I read it. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 This puts me on both sides. I agree with some points on either side. So what does that make me?:confused: I am just plainly a sinner who believes in Christ. You can come over to the dark side and be Catholic with me. :D:lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 LOL, I've heard a variety of numbers, so like to stay on the conservative side. No matter -- two is too many. ;) Amen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna A. Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Or maybe he already came back! :lol: Sorry, I couldn't resist. That is what I'm messing with now - preterism, lol. Oh man. Talk about going over to the dark side! :lol::eek::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proverbs356lady Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I need to do my research to see where I fall in all of this too. I grew up under dispensational teaching and don't know enough about covenental theology to know what I believe in this area. Basically I fall into the reformed baptist camp for most of what I believe. Any suggestions on good books to read that give a clear explanation of both schools of thought? I've noted the links and books already suggested so far. Any others I can consider? Maybe I can spend some time this summer with some "light" reading. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristineW Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I need to do my research to see where I fall in all of this too. I grew up under dispensational teaching and don't know enough about covenental theology to know what I believe in this area. Basically I fall into the reformed baptist camp for most of what I believe. Any suggestions on good books to read that give a clear explanation of both schools of thought? I've noted the links and books already suggested so far. Any others I can consider? Maybe I can spend some time this summer with some "light" reading. LOL Me too. I grew up dipsy. Teachings about the rapture and tribulation gave me nightmares. I was afraid that if I lied or sinned at all, Christ would come back that very minute and I'd be left behind. Dipsy theology isn't a very comfortable for overly anxious pre-teens. But I don't know what I believe now. I know that I don't believe anything in the Tim laHaye books but I don't really know the alternative so I've just avoided the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 LOL, I've heard a variety of numbers, so like to stay on the conservative side. No matter -- two is too many. ;) Yup, you're right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in WI Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I grew up under dispensational teaching and don't know enough about covenental theology to know what I believe in this area. Basically I fall into the reformed baptist camp for most of what I believe. Any suggestions on good books to read that give a clear explanation of both schools of thought? I grew up dispensational, too. The movie "A Thief in the Night" (and the three subsequent films) scared me for a long time. I still remember the song from the film, "there's no time to change your mind, the Son has come and you've been left behind...." Sigh. I thought The End Times Made Simple by Sam Waldron was pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proverbs356lady Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Me too. I grew up dipsy. Teachings about the rapture and tribulation gave me nightmares. I was afraid that if I lied or sinned at all, Christ would come back that very minute and I'd be left behind. Dipsy theology isn't a very comfortable for overly anxious pre-teens. But I don't know what I believe now. I know that I don't believe anything in the Tim laHaye books but I don't really know the alternative so I've just avoided the issue. I had nightmares too. My salvation was very fear driven as a teen. I grew up dispensational, too. The movie "A Thief in the Night" (and the three subsequent films) scared me for a long time. I still remember the song from the film, "there's no time to change your mind, the Son has come and you've been left behind...." Sigh. I thought The End Times Made Simple by Sam Waldron was pretty good. I remember that movie and song too! Sang it all the time in youth group. "I wish we'd all been ready...two men walking up a hill..." Thanks for the book suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnitWit Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 "What is Reformed Theology?" by RC Sproul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna A. Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I grew up dispensational, too. The movie "A Thief in the Night" (and the three subsequent films) scared me for a long time. I still remember the song from the film, "there's no time to change your mind, the Son has come and you've been left behind...." :iagree: It scared me right up to the altar at about age 12, and then again a couple years later. :glare: I STILL had no idea what it meant in the grand scheme of things, aside from hopefully not missing the Rapture. :001_huh: I remember that movie and song too! Sang it all the time in youth group. "I wish we'd all been ready...two men walking up a hill..." Great. Now I'm going to have that tune stuck in my head all day. Along with images of a bunch of young adults in bell bottoms being chased by men in uniforms. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i.love.lucy Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 There was a lot of good stuff at the site that the comparison chart came from. Lot's of "light" reading! LOL http://www.theologue.org/ There is a page there that has more recommendations for books and other articles. I still think I am on the side of Disp because I don't think the "Church" of the NT is Israel. But I do think Revelation is a book of allegory, just not the whole Bible. Lots and lots more studying to do. I was on both sides of that chart. OP, I wonder that this is such a big deal in the church you are in? Don't you all think end times are a not a crucial salvation issue and so the odds are it won't be taught every week at church? That's been my experience anyways. There's just too much else to cover. I hope you find your answers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proverbs356lady Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 "What is Reformed Theology?" by RC Sproul I've read this in the past and don't remember it talking much about eschatology. Maybe I'm wrong, I'll have to pull it and scan it again. Thanks. I'm scarred by the balloon drifting up into the sky at the end of one of those movies. :eek: It's funny the things that stick with us. There was a lot of good stuff at the site that the comparison chart came from. Lot's of "light" reading! LOLhttp://www.theologue.org/ There is a page there that has more recommendations for books and other articles. I still think I am on the side of Disp because I don't think the "Church" of the NT is Israel. But I do think Revelation is a book of allegory, just not the whole Bible. Lots and lots more studying to do. I was on both sides of that chart. OP, I wonder that this is such a big deal in the church you are in? Don't you all think end times are a not a crucial salvation issue and so the odds are it won't be taught every week at church? That's been my experience anyways. There's just too much else to cover. I hope you find your answers! Like you, I have a hard time seeing where the "church" in the NT is Israel. I was on both sides of the chart too. I'll have to check their reading list. In my church the pastor doesn't believe that eschatology is a "hill to die on" type issue. I agree that it's not as crucial as other doctrines such as salvation. But, on the other hand since it is addressed in Scripture it must have importance. As I listen to sermons and various other teachings I'm beginning to see how it does color how we interpret the Bible. I sure have much to study and learn. I have the book God of Promise on my shelf by Michael Horton. I think I'll start there and see if I can't figure out the whole covenent theology thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proverbs356lady Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I am at a fork in the road so to speak. I don't want a debate at all. I have a million questions. There are verses to back up both views. I lean more towards one view than the other, but I can't seem to figure out how to discern the truth. :confused: How can I biblically make a decision about my beliefs? I am praying about this as well. This decision will either keep my family at our church or we'll be looking elsewhere. Just re-read your post and thought I'd mention to you that I'll be praying that God would give you clarity and peace of mind on this issue. I too have lots of questions and see how the Bible in a sense backs up both views. I'm the kind of person who likes all my ducks in a row so when pieces of a puzzle don't fit perfectly in place I get frustrated. I can't help but wonder if this issue is one of those that will never be perfectly clear to me. That doesn't mean I won't dig in and learn as much as I can. But I may have to just trust that God is infinitely greater than I, and I will never (this side of heaven) completely understand Him and His ways. In the mean time I continue to read the Bible and pray for understanding. Just a few thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnitWit Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I've read this in the past and don't remember it talking much about eschatology. Maybe I'm wrong, I'll have to pull it and scan it again. Thanks. I apologize, I was distracted as I began to post. I didn't think I hit post. LOL! I was going to tell the OP that it is a good book to explain Reformed Theology. I'm sure someone can recommend one for Dispensationalism and then she can make an informed decision. I was not recommending it for a study of *end times*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onceuponatime Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Neither. After looking at the chart I've tended to be much more on the covenant side, but I am not covenant or reformed. Right now, I'm just trying to figure out who or what God is. After 40 + years of Christianity, you would think I have a handle on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Right now, I'm just trying to figure out who or what God is. After 40 + years of Christianity, you would think I have a handle on that. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proverbs356lady Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I apologize, I was distracted as I began to post. I didn't think I hit post. LOL! I was going to tell the OP that it is a good book to explain Reformed Theology. I'm sure someone can recommend one for Dispensationalism and then she can make an informed decision. I was not recommending it for a study of *end times*. :iagree:Yes, it does explain reformed theology well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athomemom Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 There was a lot of good stuff at the site that the comparison chart came from. Lot's of "light" reading! LOLhttp://www.theologue.org/ There is a page there that has more recommendations for books and other articles. I still think I am on the side of Disp because I don't think the "Church" of the NT is Israel. But I do think Revelation is a book of allegory, just not the whole Bible. Lots and lots more studying to do. I was on both sides of that chart. OP, I wonder that this is such a big deal in the church you are in? Don't you all think end times are a not a crucial salvation issue and so the odds are it won't be taught every week at church? That's been my experience anyways. There's just too much else to cover. I hope you find your answers! I am not certain that it is a 'big deal' in the sense that it will be taught every Sunday. However, your view on this topic does color the way that the church thinks about evangelism and teaching overall, imho. I think it is talked about more so than not. At least in my experience it has been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tntgoodwin Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 OP, did you ever find clarity on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athomemom Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 OP, did you ever find clarity on this? Yes, I did! We joined a reformed congregation a week ago. It's a long story, but we as a family are so happy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tntgoodwin Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Great news! I am happy for you and your family. Would love to hear the long story at some point too. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Neither. I can't really imagine getting into dispensationalism - it was pretty much invented in the 19th century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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