Wanting to improve cursive handwriting...

[Greta]

for both myself and my daughter. I've always written a weird mixture of print and cursive, with some letters joined and others not. My handwriting isn't pretty, it is always vertical (is slanting important?), and my hand/wrist tires very easily and begins to hurt pretty quickly when I write.

 

My daughter basically knows cursive, though she sometimes forgets how to make the weird capitals (by that, I mean those that look nothing like their manuscript counterparts - G for example) and the lowercase j and z. She usually writes in plain print/manuscript, but she wants to improve her cursive too, and get more comfortable and fluent with it.

 

Is there a program that we could both use? I'm giving serious thought to SmithHand. I would love to hear feedback about it, and also about any other programs that you would recommend.

 

Thanks!

[Guest]

Look at Getty Dubay Italics program. from your description, your handwriting is very similar in style to it.

[Critterfixer]

I have always heard that slowing down when you write is probably one of the most important things you can do to improve your handwriting. So whatever style you chose to imitate, make sure you give yourselves the time you need to practice. Speed can make the best handwriting sloppy. You can't rush art!

[Guest]

I wish I could convince my 12 yr old son of that!

[Ellie]

Often, the reason someone's hand hurts when he's writing is that he's holding his writing implement improperly, the paper is slanted incorrectly, and that he is pressing way too hard on the paper.

 

You could do the italic handwriting, but whatever you choose in the end, try using a fountain pen instead of a pencil or other kind of pen. You canNOT press to hard with a fountain pen.

 

I like a traditional cursive, such as Zaner-Bloser. ZB used to have an adult course for people who wanted to improve their penmanship. I don't know if that's still available or not, though.

 

You might also consider Spencerian. It's such a pretty hand that you'd impress yourself. :001_smile:

[Critterfixer]

I wish I could convince my 12 yr old son of that!

 

We have turtle awards. A sticker only for the best work, not for the fastest work. And I will make them stay in at break and do it again if it is sloppy.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

... try using a fountain pen instead of a pencil or other kind of pen. You canNOT press to hard with a fountain pen.

 

 

 

Do you have any recommendations? A quick amazon search shows a range of $50 for one pen, or $15 for 7 different colors.

[Aurelia]

I've been heavily considering Spencerian myself. It's a really pretty looking script.

[Ellesmere]

Look at Getty Dubay Italics program. from your description, your handwriting is very similar in style to it.

 

nm

[Greta]

Often, the reason someone's hand hurts when he's writing is that he's holding his writing implement improperly, the paper is slanted incorrectly, and that he is pressing way too hard on the paper.

 

Yes, I've wondered about things like this. I have very weak wrists which can be easily hurt by something as simple as trying to open a tightly sealed jar. I can type quite comfortably and quickly, but handwriting has *always* been hard for me. (I remember my second grade teacher telling me that was my weakest area in school, and I don't think I ever improved much.)

 

The way I hold my pen, as far as I can tell from what I've read online, is fine. But I have been intrigued by the "adaptive tripod grasp" (third one here: http://www.mcpasd.k12.wi.us/northweb/OT/motorgroups.html). I've never actually tried it, though, at least, not for a long enough period to get accustomed to it. I'd love to hear if anyone else has transitioned to this.

 

What is the proper amount of slant for the paper position?

 

I don't think that I press too hard, but I'd certainly be willing to try out a fountain pen to see if that helps.

 

The funny thing about all of this is that while my grip is allegedly the right one and yet I have pain when I write, my daughter's grip is totally "wrong" and she writes with comfort and ease. She has a "thumb wrap" grip, and no amount of teaching, and none of the half dozen different "therapeutic" pencil grips I bought have made any difference. :confused:

 

You might also consider Spencerian. It's such a pretty hand that you'd impress yourself. :001_smile:

 

I was looking at this one too. It's lovely, but I fear it might be far above my skill level!

[nansk]

Here is an article by Getty and Dubay on handwriting improvement.

 

As for slant (slope), in their book Write Now, Getty and Dubay use a 5 deg slope. In their Italics Letters calligraphy book, they advise choosing a slope - between 0 to 15 deg - that is most comfortable to you.

 

HTH

[Ellie]

You don't need to spend lots of money (although I confess that I love writing with an expensive fountain pen :001_wub:). Parker makes a good one...can't remember what it's called, but I'll bet Amazon sells it. :-)

 

Remember that *children* learn to write Spencerian. If you can make lines and circles, you can learn it. :-)

[Critterfixer]

Yes, I've wondered about things like this. I have very weak wrists which can be easily hurt by something as simple as trying to open a tightly sealed jar.

Although personally, I think that is what DH is for, I would see if it would be possible to strengthen your wrists. I imagine anything to help with carpal tunnel would be good for the wrist.

 

What is the proper amount of slant for the paper position?

Nearly all handwriting books will show how to slant the paper for writing comfortably. My Spencerian text has a lot of information on angles. If the vertical line intersected with the horizontal line is 90, or a right angle, then the slant of main strokes is about 52 and slants right. I get all bent out of shape over angles. If it were a two by four on my miter saw, the letters are at a twenty.

A trick to position your paper is to first place one piece of lined paper directly in front of you and then take the lined paper you intend to write on and angle it at a 45 to the vertical paper.

 

I was looking at this one too. It's lovely, but I fear it might be far above my skill level!

What is nice about the Spencerian Theory Book is that it is very technical on how the letters are made. Like an art text it divides letter formation into the kinds of lines used in creating the letter. So you are not just trying to imitate a form.

 

I remember my second grade teacher telling me that was my weakest area in school, and I don't think I ever improved much.

The only thing I ever got a D in was fourth grade penmanship. My teacher literally crushed my hand trying to change my pencil grip. But I never hated writing because I loved to write creatively. So I ended up getting lots of practice. I get compliments on my handwriting now. Practice, practice, practice.

[Sugar Fly]

Greta, I write with a mixture of print/cursive as well and it is also painful. My DS11 was never taught cursive in PS. We liked the Italics samples we saw, but then I looked at ZB, and that looks more like the way I was taught cursive so I went with ZB. We have not started the book, but it is just what I was looking for. DS and I plan to use it over the summer.

http://shop.zaner-bloser.com/p-905-self-instruction-in-handwriting.aspx

They also have a workbook for middle school:

http://shop.zaner-bloser.com/p-69-self-instruction-for-middle-school.aspx

The fountain pen idea sounds good, maybe we should give that a try as well!;)

[Greta]

Thank you everyone, for all the great replies, links, and help. I appreciate it!

 

I hold my paper at an angle when I write. The angle I comfortably use is very similar to what you (Critterfixer) described. But the funny thing is that my writing still ends up vertical on the page. Is that normal??

 

I appreciate the advice to slow down and just keep practicing and practicing. Makes sense, though of course I wish there was a shortcut to beautiful penmanship. :001_smile:

 

 

My Spencerian text has a lot of information on angles.

 

. . .

 

What is nice about the Spencerian Theory Book is that it is very technical on how the letters are made. Like an art text it divides letter formation into the kinds of lines used in creating the letter. So you are not just trying to imitate a form.

 

My daughter LOVES the look of this one, and I like the way you have described it here (the way it is taught).

[Critterfixer]

The angle I comfortably use is very similar to what you (Critterfixer) described. But the funny thing is that my writing still ends up vertical on the page. Is that normal??

 

 

Might be normal, but it isn't right, is it? There are going to be individual choices in the actual degree of slant. Some people even say that the degree of slant actually says something about you-straight up and down is supposed to convey "sobriety, a bias toward formality.":001_smile:

 

But, to slant a letter properly and consistently it helps to use a guide. Take your paper and decide on the angle from vertical that you want to use and then take a ruler and mark that angle every few spaces with faint pencil. I use this with both my boys now that we are beginning cursive. It helps them maintain a constant slant because they "lean" their letters against the "fence."

[Greta]

Might be normal, but it isn't right, is it?

 

:lol: See, I honestly don't know! If it's wrong to write vertically, I find myself wondering why the school taught me to write vertically first, and then later to change it to slanted. Why not just teach it the correct way from the beginning? And really, it would help motivate me to try to change that if I knew the reason for it. Will it help with my wrist pain? With speed? Is there any reason other than style/appearance why writing should be slanted? I simply don't know.

 

There are going to be individual choices in the actual degree of slant. Some people even say that the degree of slant actually says something about you-straight up and down is supposed to convey "sobriety, a bias toward formality.":001_smile:

 

Gosh, no, that doesn't sound like me at all. :tongue_smilie: :D

 

But, to slant a letter properly and consistently it helps to use a guide. Take your paper and decide on the angle from vertical that you want to use and then take a ruler and mark that angle every few spaces with faint pencil. I use this with both my boys now that we are beginning cursive. It helps them maintain a constant slant because they "lean" their letters against the "fence."

 

Neat, thanks for this suggestion!

[Critterfixer]

Will it help with my wrist pain?

I don't think the actual style of writing has anything to do with your wrist pain. That sounds like a fatigue issue which might have to do with grip or with putting too much pressure when you write, as another post described. I might add that if you experience a great deal of pain when you write I would get that checked out medically, particularly if it gets worse, and not better with more handwriting practice.

 

Gosh, no, that doesn't sound like me at all.

Well, then!:001_smile:

 

Is there any reason other than style/appearance why writing should be slanted?

Good handwriting is an art form as well as a discipline. Style and appearance are important. According to what I have read, in early American schools (prior to 1930) penmanship was so important that a larger school might have a penmanship master to teach it. In the 1930's children used the Palmer Method--which is what I grew up with. I went to a very old fashioned school in first, second and third grade. (Drawing in your penmanship text was punishable by spanking.)

In the late 1930's the Palmer method gave way to ball-and-stick lettering for young children. So manuscript printing is actually rather newfangled in a historical sense.And it's been all downhill from there. I have heard that some schools are doing away with penmanship altogether in favor of typing, I presume. I wonder how the children are going to sign their names.

[Aurelia]

You might want to try some PT exercises to build up your wrist strength. The one I remember doing (healing from a broken wrist when I was 10) was to fill a sock with pennies and do wrist curls. Also squeezing things like putty help to build up the forearm muscles so your wrists get stronger. You can probably find demos of the exercises on the web.

[Hunter]

Quite a few months ago I decided to change my handwriting. It took me months to pick a font and settle down and start to seriously master it. I've ended out using D'Nealian/Modern cursive. I'm using a variety of resources. I have Cursive First in the mail and arriving soon hopefully :-) I also ordered SWR and plan to tackle my spelling along with mastering the strokes of the letters.

 

This has been a very rewarding experience. I look down at my handwriting and smile, barely believing this is MY handwriting :-) It's better than a great new haircut :-) It makes me feel more confident and...I don't know...I feel spiffy :-)

 

I see Italic fonts recommended a lot. Before choosing it, make sure you want such straight, rigid lines to represent you. I wanted something softer and more feminine.

[Greta]

I don't think the actual style of writing has anything to do with your wrist pain. That sounds like a fatigue issue which might have to do with grip or with putting too much pressure when you write, as another post described. I might add that if you experience a great deal of pain when you write I would get that checked out medically, particularly if it gets worse, and not better with more handwriting practice.

 

You might want to try some PT exercises to build up your wrist strength. The one I remember doing (healing from a broken wrist when I was 10) was to fill a sock with pennies and do wrist curls. Also squeezing things like putty help to build up the forearm muscles so your wrists get stronger. You can probably find demos of the exercises on the web.

 

Thank you both for these suggestions. I never thought of seeing my doctor about it, and it didn't occur to me to look for exercises online either. Thanks!

 

I do remember in college -- see, I attended college back in the stone age, when the average student did not own a laptop and had to actually write notes on the lecture -- that my wrist would hurt so much during the first week or two, but then it would get better. So I guess it is a strength issue.

 

Good handwriting is an art form as well as a discipline. Style and appearance are important.

 

Good point! I guess it is rather silly of me to say that I want to improve the appearance of my handwriting, and then object that appearance is not a good enough reason to start slanting my writing. :blush:

 

This has been a very rewarding experience. I look down at my handwriting and smile, barely believing this is MY handwriting :-) It's better than a great new haircut :-) It makes me feel more confident and...I don't know...I feel spiffy :-)

 

Wow, this is so encouraging! I hope that I will feel similarly in a few weeks (months?). It's something that I have always felt self-conscious about. I'd love for that to change.

 

I see Italic fonts recommended a lot. Before choosing it, make sure you want such straight, rigid lines to represent you. I wanted something softer and more feminine.

 

Italic is definitely beautiful in its own way, and I do appreciate those who have mentioned it. But I think the flowing Spencerian script really appeals to the traditionalist and Classical educator in me. :001_smile:

[Greta]

Greta, I write with a mixture of print/cursive as well and it is also painful. My DS11 was never taught cursive in PS. We liked the Italics samples we saw, but then I looked at ZB, and that looks more like the way I was taught cursive so I went with ZB. We have not started the book, but it is just what I was looking for. DS and I plan to use it over the summer.

http://shop.zaner-bloser.com/p-905-self-instruction-in-handwriting.aspx

They also have a workbook for middle school:

http://shop.zaner-bloser.com/p-69-self-instruction-for-middle-school.aspx

The fountain pen idea sounds good, maybe we should give that a try as well!;)

 

I think ZB is pretty, too. I had pretty much narrowed it down to SmithHand, ZB, or Spencerian. I showed dd all three, and she fell in love with Spencerian. But ZB sounds like a great program, and that book you linked to for older students would be perfect for us. Let me know how it goes for you!

[Critterfixer]

I think ZB is pretty, too. I had pretty much narrowed it down to SmithHand, ZB, or Spencerian. I showed dd all three, and she fell in love with Spencerian. But ZB sounds like a great program, and that book you linked to for older students would be perfect for us. Let me know how it goes for you!

 

Good luck with whatever you chose.:001_smile:

[Greta]

http://www.paperpenalia.com/handwriting.html

 

If what this article says is true, then I have found the reason for my wrist pain when I write! I would love for some of you with beautiful handwriting and/or knowledge about handwriting to read this and tell me what you think. (It isn't too long, and I would be really grateful for your time!)

 

The way the author says you should NOT write - putting the full weight of your hand on the paper, finger-writing, then picking up your hand to move it across the paper repeatedly as you write - is exactly the way I write. Honestly, until I read this article, I had no idea there was any other way to write!!! As awful as I feel my handwriting is on paper, I am terribly embarrassed when I have to write on a chalkboard or other vertical surface, and this article says that is exactly what I need to be doing to train the right muscles to do the job.

 

Again, I would love any feedback on this. In the meantime, I think I will start the recommended exercises for retraining my muscles how to write.

[Greta]

Good luck with whatever you chose.:001_smile:

 

Thanks! My daughter's excitement and enthusiasm for Spencerian made the decision pretty easy. I ordered the materials today. :)

[Critterfixer]

Excellent article. Points of interest-yes-the muscles of the forearm, in particular, the extensors seem to move the most. They also get very tight-I feel this a lot when I have the time to go get a massage! So--massage your forearm muscles when you are working to strengthen them. And the shoulder moves a good bit too.

The fingers should never really grip the pencil or the pen. It does just rest on the first phalanx of the middle finger. I've got a little advantage here because in Organic Chemistry I actually severed the nerve to the inside aspect of my right middle finger with a broken distillation apparatus. Aside from learning that one can take a test left-handed in a pinch, I ended up with permanent numbness on the side of my finger. No pain from the pencil rest anymore.:001_smile: It's this huge callus that has actually deformed the nail--but I write a lot.

 

I also agree with sitting straight and tall when you write. I tend to stretch out both shoulders after five to eight pages of writing. I also advise you to take walks where you really swing out your shoulders to prevent tightness in the back of your neck--he didn't mention that, but it's like any other exercise, stretching out and warming up are important.

[Hunter]

One of the reasons I chose D'Nealian was because it has less slant than other fonts. Handwriting Without Tears has no slant and I thought I liked that until I tried it. Different fonts have different degrees of slant.

 

After finishing a handwriting program, I think that slant is one of the things people start to individualize almost immediately, unless they are consciously trying not to. I think that degree of slant says something about us.

 

I highly recommend that you do NOT let your daughter's choice of a font dictate which font you pick for youreself!!!! I made that HUGE mistake with my son :-( I switched to Italic for years, because he wanted me to write in a font that was easier for him to read, and I had such a low sense of self worth that I thought I owed him that.

 

Handwriting says something about us as an individual. It declares to the world something fundamental about our personality. Our handwriting shouldn't tell the world what our children are like :-0

 

It has been a HUGE deal to me to PICK the font that says something about ME.

 

Yes, Spencerian is pretty, but do you want your handwriting to be that ornate? Do you want it to be that slanted? What type of writing instrument have you been drawn to? Have you ever really given yourself permission to pick one? Part of picking a font takes into account your favorite writing instrument.

 

I HATE the REALITY of fountain pens. At times I do a LOT of filling out of tiny boxes on worksheets when attending Post Trauma classes. I have severe memory loss issues, so have a lot of calendars and other organization worksheets to fill out, too. I prefer a thin mechanical pencil with a rubber grip and a thin soft lead. I need my font to be legible when written small and work well with my mechanical pencil. I looked at Spencerian, but it is TOTALLY unsuitable for my lifestyle!

 

It might take you a few tries to find the right font for you. I wasted a little money on a few fonts that didn't work out like I thought they would, after I tried them.

 

Good luck! :-)

[Greta]

Excellent article. Points of interest-yes-the muscles of the forearm, in particular, the extensors seem to move the most. They also get very tight-I feel this a lot when I have the time to go get a massage! So--massage your forearm muscles when you are working to strengthen them. And the shoulder moves a good bit too.

The fingers should never really grip the pencil or the pen. It does just rest on the first phalanx of the middle finger. I've got a little advantage here because in Organic Chemistry I actually severed the nerve to the inside aspect of my right middle finger with a broken distillation apparatus. Aside from learning that one can take a test left-handed in a pinch, I ended up with permanent numbness on the side of my finger. No pain from the pencil rest anymore.:001_smile: It's this huge callus that has actually deformed the nail--but I write a lot.

 

I'm just amazed by this, because it is so opposite to the way I have been writing all these years. Why don't penmanship classes in public schools include this kind of knowledge?? Well, better late than never, I suppose. When I write, I'm using my fingers to create the motion, my wrist doesn't really move at all (though it is what hurts) and my shoulders don't move until I pick up my hand and scoot it across the page a bit. But if I am understanding you, and the article, correctly, my fingers really shouldn't be moving, and shouldn't be gripping tightly - their job is to lightly hold the pen. My wrist and shoulder should be creating the motions. Sounds like a foreign concept, but I'm also excited to try it and see how it change things.

 

Organic Chemistry is dangerous stuff! I stupidly sniffed directly from a bottle once, instead of doing that thing where you wave some of the fumes toward your face using your hand. Stupid! It burned my nose like fire and I lost my sense of smell for a day or two. Luckily, no permanent harm. I remember my TA also burned her fingers pretty badly when she reached for a test tube, not realizing it had recently been held over a flame. I'm glad your injury didn't cause you any permanent pain or problems, though.

 

I also agree with sitting straight and tall when you write. I tend to stretch out both shoulders after five to eight pages of writing. I also advise you to take walks where you really swing out your shoulders to prevent tightness in the back of your neck--he didn't mention that, but it's like any other exercise, stretching out and warming up are important.

 

Great tips, thanks!

[Greta]

I highly recommend that you do NOT let your daughter's choice of a font dictate which font you pick for youreself!!!! I made that HUGE mistake with my son :-( I switched to Italic for years, because he wanted me to write in a font that was easier for him to read, and I had such a low sense of self worth that I thought I owed him that.

 

Handwriting says something about us as an individual. It declares to the world something fundamental about our personality. Our handwriting shouldn't tell the world what our children are like :-0

 

It has been a HUGE deal to me to PICK the font that says something about ME.

 

This is very good advice, and I appreciate you mentioning it. I have to admit, there was more selfishness in my approach to choosing than what I revealed initially. I narrowed it down to three fonts that I liked, and let my daughter choose only from those! Now I'm thinking that may not have been entirely fair to her, though she is very excited about it. I didn't even show her an Italic font, because even though it is pretty, it just isn't what I want my handwriting to look like. It's more similar to the way I write right now, and that's what I'm wanting to change. I LOVE the look of Spencerian, but felt quite intimidated about it. This thread gave me the encouragement to go ahead and try it. And she and I both felt like we wanted to use the same program, to learn this together. So, I guess that is part of both of our personalities. But I will be mindful of this, and try to be honest with myself if I discover that this is not my style. I really liked the look of SmithHand too, but it is so narrow and . . . I don't know, "dense?" that I wasn't sure that I could or would want to write that way. Spencerian to me seems the ideal, so I'm going to at least attempt it! :001_smile:

 

Part of picking a font takes into account your favorite writing instrument.

 

I never thought of this! I don't think I have a favorite writing instrument, because writing is something I've never been excited about before - just a job that needs to be done. I'll start doing some experimenting.

 

Thank you for your insights!

[Critterfixer]

I'm just amazed by this, because it is so opposite to the way I have been writing all these years. Why don't penmanship classes in public schools include this kind of knowledge??

I expect that they felt there were more important "THINGS" to do. Don't get me up on my soapbox.

[Kareni]

Here's a previous thread discussing fountain pens:

 

Can we talk fountain pens for handwriting...

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Greta]

Here's a previous thread discussing fountain pens:

 

Can we talk fountain pens for handwriting...

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

Cool - thanks! :001_smile: