About to sign up for CC chem, physics, math - Intro or general? Backup or not?...

[Nan in Mass]

Sorry - this is long and it contains lots of information all mushed together.

 

My son has two more years of high school left. We are slowly working our way through Blitzer Precalc and Dolciani Algebra 2 this year and are working on our second year of very loosely structured natural history for science. The year before that we did a very little chemistry (very little). The year before that, he followed along with his older brother and me when we did Conceptual Physics. Last fall, he took drawing and speech at the community college, just to get him used to being in a classroom. He is headed for engineering school, hopefully, when he goes off to four-year college. It looks like he is going to do fairly well on the SATs, not spectacularly well, but not too badly either.

 

So - from now on out, he is going to take his math and science (and anything else he wants) at the community college. We are not worried about whether the classes he takes transfer to his 4-year college. We have already decided that we are not going to try to have him do the 2-year transfer program. He is brightish, but I am not sure he is so bright that he can successfully go to engineering school a year or two early.

 

We are having him take the community college classes because:

-We want him to have more classroom experience before engineering school.

-I don't feel confident teaching calculus, physics, and chemistry to a future engineering student. (I've had them but I don't remember them and I'm not a very good teacher.)

-We want the classes for college entrance purposes.

 

The question is - which science and math do I sign him up for?

 

He has almost no experience with textbook science. He has done very little formal physics and chemistry and that was years ago. He will have finished the sections of Blitzer that the CC covers for pre-calculus, but his retention is horrible. If he gets bad grades, it will severely hamper his ability to get into college because I don't give grades and colleges will have only this and his SAT scores by which to judge him. I seem to remember some people here saying that students who try to take engineering classes at CC and then continue on with their sequals at a polytech or university flounder badly and quit. We are not sure we want him to start his engineering science and math higher up in the sequence. It might be better to start with his classmates and have things be less hard while he is adjusting to college. We are hoping he goes somewhere interesting, in other words, not the easiest of engineering schools. He is likely to struggle even if he starts with the beginning classes. I also remember some people here saying their students restarted the math sequence once their student began at CC. On the other hand, that seems a bit extreme, considering my son will be 17 and 18 for those two years and is fairly good at math. (Any math problems are probably my bad teaching and a naturally bad memory.) Backing up in math would require doing Intermediate Algebra, Precalc 1, Precalc 2, and then our CC's three semester calculus sequence. We have heard that it is not a bad idea to take some of those huge lecture classes at community college instead, where the classes are smaller. Ours has transfer agreements with our state university and various other univerisities. It has an engineering transfer program and a nursing program. If some of the classes did transfer, it might let him take some cool other electives. I don't want him to be so bored that he gives up, either, or doesn't study and flunks.

 

Do we sign him up for introductory chem 1+2? This is the one my other son took. It assumes no previous experience in chemistry.

Do we sign him up for general chemistry, the one that might transfer to engineering school?

Where do we put him in math? I have no faith at all in the placement test. It put both my children, the non-mathy tests badly one and the mathy tests well one, higher than the amount of math they had studied.

 

Does anybody have any thoughts about this? Or any suggestions for finding out more information so I have a better chance of getting this right?

 

I am in a total panic about this.

 

-Nan

[Tullia]

Does your CC allow students to transfer to an intro course early in the term if they enroll in but find out they're not ready for general classes? That's an option at our CC. I think there's also an option to move from intro to general courses, too.

 

I'm a terrible source for this kind of advice; there have been times when I was tempted to give it up and use the dart board method. :tongue_smilie:

[Dana]

A student can sign up for a lower math than they place into. At my cc, students also can test out of a course in the first three days of classes. I'd suggest taking a look at the math texts in the bookstore along with syllabi (probably online) to get a better feel for which course is the best fit.

[AngieW in Texas]

I had my oldest sign up for the lowest level chemistry class the cc offers (Introductory Chemistry) and the 2nd lowest physics class (General College Physics rather than Conceptual Physics). These will actually complete my dd's science requirements for college.

 

My dd should have been able to place into Calculus because we did Precalculus last year, but she didn't retake the placement test (originally taken when she was just halfway through Algebra II) until 4 months after we finished Precal and she forgot all her trig, so that's what she placed into. That's the math she's taking this semester. The only math she has to have for her degree is one semester of statistics (took it last semester) and one semester of any math College Algebra level or higher, so she's completing her math requirement for college this semester as well.

 

My middle dd is going to be in a science field. I'm doing things differently for her. She's doing AP physics B this year (same level as what my oldest is doing at the cc). She's going to do an honors level chemistry next year (same level as the Intro Chemistry my oldest is taking this year). She's going to do all her math at home and finish up with AP calculus for her senior year. She's going to take biology and chemistry for her sciences at the cc.

[jld]

I'd start him in the intro to chem classes, and a math course lower than you think. This way, you know the material won't be too hard for him, and he'll be able to just focus on taking responsibility for his own studies without relying on Mom.

 

Dh is a mech eng., and was in the top track at that time in France, the math/physics track. Even with that good instruction, and obviously natural aptitude in math/science, dh said engineering school was really hard. He studied every day, and was happy to get Cs.

 

If your son doesn't have much formal science education, I would think buckling down and getting it at the CC would be an excellent start.

 

Didn't your oldest son tell you to tell his brother to study hard? He's in engineering school, right? What does he think his brother should take at the CC?

[Nan in Mass]

Asking the oldest is a good idea.

[Miss Marple]

I was asking my oldest son (junior in Engineering) this same question in relation to his brother. He suggested that the science classes would be best taken in the engineering school rather than CC. Also his particular school asks that students take calculus at the engineering school because they do it differently (and any other calculus won't transfer). Ds#2 is looking at a business degree and they ask that the students take their economics courses there rather than transferring courses.

 

I think if I were in your position I would enroll him in the more introductory courses and let him take the "core" science courses at the engineering school.

 

As far as math goes, my sons began taking concurrent courses when they were ready for pre-calculus. They took College Algebra then trig. DS#1 went on to take Calc. 1 which didn't transfer except as an elective. Ds#2 took statistics because we knew that calc. would not transfer and statistics will.

 

Personally, I would shoot for courses that I felt more confident that the student would preform well in because we've had some poor instructors recently.

[Nan in Mass]

The math would be easier to repeat if precalc weren't a year-long class and calc a 3 semester class at our CC. That stretches the whole thing out more. It also becomes problematical if you are off season and taking a 1 in the spring and a 2 in the fall.

[Mom22ns]

When I was in college Gen Chem or any of the other sciences was the majors level class that assumed you had high school or 100 level college course first. The math was more demanding, but the pace was even more so. I wouldn't put a student into that level without confirming with the school that it is ok as a first formal class in the subject.

[Sonshine]

I can only relate our experience. This is in regards to CC courses while in high school. Ds took chemistry - a hybrid course - listens to lectures online - once a week lab and periodic tests in class. He didn't think he needed to listen to lectures until he made a D on the first test. Ended up with a C in course. Tested into pre calc. retook test, tested into Calc. Dropped calc on last drop day or would have made a D. Best friend took course with him, studied harder and made an A. Son went to highly rated state school, is majoring in engineering and has a 3.2 average after 3 semesters and calc 3 and physics 2 in CC summer school (not bad for engineering), doing fine in all courses. Son is a good student, plenty smart, a little overconfident at times. His friend is a worrier and overstudies . My son made a much higher score on the SAT by the way, but that didn't directly correlate to better grades. I think it's better to start further back and do better.

[Gwen in VA]

It depends on the kid.

 

My guys all found their first community college classes to be fairly straightforward. Their main complaints against the classes were that they were much much easier than they expected. Homework was generally done in class.

 

You know your son best -- Does he thrive with challenge? Will he actually do worse if he is bored in the class? Or does he need to feel comfortable in order to do his best? Some kids genuinely enjoy the "jump into the deep end" approach to education!

[Nan in Mass]

I wish we didn't have to worry about his getting good CC grades in order to get into engineering school. If it weren't for that, I'd throw him into the deep end. It would keep him from getting overconfident and make him develop those study skills I've been trying to emphasize as necessary. If it turns out that they aren't necessary (and I can see how he might possibly be able to get away with minimal studying in a subject that went over lots of things he is interested in and has already heard of, even if he doesn't really know them). It certainly would be easier to develop those skills and habits if he weren't totally overwhelmed and in a panic, with easier material, but I seriously doubt that he will if he can manage to get away without doing it. Then engineering school might come as a nasty surprise.

But these grades are going to be the only ones he has. Ug.

-Nan

 

ETA - That is a very good point. Thank you.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[Brenda in MA]

Nan,

 

I would definitely ask your older son for his thoughts. But this is what I'm thinking, if you think he is ready for PreCalc 1 this fall:

 

Jr yr fall

 

Intro Chemistry 1

PreCalc 1

 

Jr yr spring

 

Intro Engineering (if he likes this & the teacher is good, this might be a good prof to ask for a college recommendation)

PreCalc 2

 

Sr yr fall

 

General Chem 1

Calc 1

 

Sr yr spring

 

Physics 1

elective that will transfer (English 101, Psych, History, etc.)

possibly Calc 2 or Statistics

 

Here are my thoughts. If you're worried about him starting with the harder science, then Intro Chem 1 would help him adjust to the CC and give him some background and hopefully a good grade. I suggest the intro to engineering to help him "try out" different areas and see where he might focus.

 

Then for the fall, if he does not want to major in ChemE, and if General Chem will transfer, then taking it at the CC and getting it out of the way will be a huge help for him. General Chem is usually a hard and "weeder" course at engineering schools, so if he can get that credit done, it would really help him that first year at engineering school. If he's going to major in ChemE and needs more Chemistry, then I'd defer General Chem I to his engineering school. I'd also suggest having him repeat the Calc sequence at the engineering school unless he's really strong in math.

 

I only suggested Physics for the introduction to the material that will help him do well in college physics. This cc doesn't seem to have a lower level intro physics.

 

My thoughts --

Brenda

[Nan in Mass]

So you would have him repeat pre-calc at the CC?

We have the option of intro physics (at least in theory). There also is a year-long physical science class (even lower level).

He is interested in taking an intro human anatomy class, too (not the general one for nursing majors). That also might make a good beginning class.

That is a good point about getting general chem out of the way. If he thinks he is going the mechanical route, we will keep it in mind. At the moment, he is more interested in materials, which means that chemistry is going to be very important.

My middle one did the intro chem. It looked like the general chem I did except with a rather frightening amount of organic chemistry mixed into it. The second semester was all organic chemistry. I suppose I should ask the department head exactly how much difference there is between the two classes.

 

His older brother said, "He's like me, not like middle one (in other words, not math-handicapped). You should just have him take the higher classes. He'll have to work hard but he will figure it out."

 

How do colleges feel about students retaking things when they arrive freshman year?

 

-Nan

[JennW in SoCal]

Hi Nan,

 

I hadn't responded to this thread because it seems there are so many choices for science classes at my son's community college.

 

They've got a couple of chemistry courses for the non-major which will satisfy core requirements for humanities types. They also created a prerequisite for general chemistry, which is what my ds is in now. It is more than high school or intro chemistry, but less than the 2 semester general chem course. It is perfect for my ds -- basic enough that it covers all the chem he never had, but challenging enough. He has to study.

 

The math department has numerous higher math choices, too. There are the courses for all the nursing and EMT majors, there are the courses for education majors and there is the calculus sequence for the science and engineering major. All of these latter courses transfer within the CA college system for engineering majors.

 

So -- my son's experience doesn't match with your situation! I don't know how to answer your question. And now I have to head out to the freeways to get my ds off to a day of chem lecture and lab!

[Gwen in VA]

I would never ever have my kid retake a class at the CC. That sounds like a recipe for a bored student!

 

Again, you know your son best, but I would be very cautious about repeating a class. If your kid is bored to tears, that could result in more serous issues of deciding that school in general is "boring."

[Nan in Mass]

He's doing precalc with me right now, with the same book the CC uses. He needs my help figuring it out, and he forgets it again dismayingly fast, but he can do the problems once I've read him the chapter. He doesn't want to retake precalc, saying if worse comes to worst, he will just have to have lots of help getting through it. In the end, the decision is his. I think he will probably test into calc when he retakes the placement test next month. I am willing to make him take things, but I am not willing to refuse to let him try a higher or lower level of something. So far, my husband has been all for taking whichever path is most likely to lead to A's, but I don't think he has thought about the boredom factor.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I feel like almost every single decision I have ever made concerning teenagers, from whether or not they should go to school here to whether or not they can go to so-and-so's house, has been made without all the information, dartboard style. Sigh.

I will ask if he can drop down in science if need be.

[memphispeg]

I agree with the posters who warn against boredom. Let him hold onto his pre-calc text and go for the cc calc. For chem. though I would have him take an intermediate level intro. class (if there is such a thing) to begin with and go from there. College chem is v. hard and he should get a nice solid foundation while he can at cc.

[Nan in Mass]

The physics series is three classes. How important do you think it is to have all three before college? That is another thing that is worrying me. And non-calculus based physics seems only to be offered sometimes, like in the summer when students from other colleges use it as a make-up class because they have flunked physics the first time round.

-Nan

[Teachin'Mine]

This opinion is given without any knowledge of CC classes and all, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents anyway. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'd be less concerned about boredom than with putting him into his first CC class in one that's too challenging and has the potential to frustrate and discourage. To me, the first CC class is about learning to take more responsibility for your own education and learning how to show up on time when no one is taking attendance, how to learn in a lecture environment, how to get help when needed, how to keep up with assignments when no one is checking, and how to prepare for and take timed tests.

 

Regarding the pre-calc, I would think re-taking it at CC would be ideal. He's learned with you reading the lessons to him. This would be a great opportunity for him to learn from the class lectures and reading the text lessons on his own. He'll already have a pretty good idea on the material, and this would help to cement his knowledge even better. In my opinion, succeeding is important especially with the first couple of CC classes.

 

Regarding the chemistry, I personally wouldn't put someone into the general level class if they haven't had any chemistry in high school. That's what the intro classes are for. Again, I'd set him up for success and let him take the intro. He can always opt to go to the general the next semester. I wouldn't worry so much about the requirement transferring, but would want him to get a good foundation to make it easier when he gets to the college of his choice.

 

I hope he has a great CC experience whatever way you decide. And definitely check with his brother since he's BTDT and knows him well. :)

[Nan in Mass]

Well I agree with you about the first classes and he took drawing and speech last fall. GRIN I think he'll remember to put his name on his paper and he now knows that room numbers in the 300s are on the third floor. I would have put him precalc this year at CC but I didn't want to start him with a precalc class in the fall (when he took his first classes) and this spring he was in Japan for the first few weeks of classes.

 

I spoke to the school yesterday. They are setting us up to speak to someone.

 

The dean of math and sciences said that she thinks the problem with their CC engineering transfer students is mostly that the class format is different, not necessarily that they didn't cover the material at CC. It would be interesting to see what our particular receiving 4-year colleges think, but I'm not sure how I would go about finding that out.

 

-Nan

[Miss Marple]

The dean of math and sciences said that she thinks the problem with their CC engineering transfer students is mostly that the class format is different, not necessarily that they didn't cover the material at CC.

 

This is what we found. The calculus at the CC and the university used the same textbook, but the CC did it in 3 courses and the engineering department did it in 4 courses. The material was covered, but the depth and application was far greater in the engineering dept. at the university than what was done at the CC. This is why the university does not accept transfer credit except as an elective. So DS took Calc. 1 again at the university, but felt it was very different. He was glad he took it earlier and had a bit of a heads-up. The university had no problem with him retaking the course.

Edited April 1, 2011 by CynthiaOK

[regentrude]

The dean of math and sciences said that she thinks the problem with their CC engineering transfer students is mostly that the class format is different, not necessarily that they didn't cover the material at CC. It would be interesting to see what our particular receiving 4-year colleges think, but I'm not sure how I would go about finding that out.

 

You could just ask the 4 year college. Either the admissions people may be knowledgeable or, more likely, the individual department your son is interested in can advise you.

[Musicmom]

Do we sign him up for introductory chem 1+2? This is the one my other son took. It assumes no previous experience in chemistry.

Do we sign him up for general chemistry, the one that might transfer to engineering school?

Where do we put him in math? I have no faith at all in the placement test. It put both my children, the non-mathy tests badly one and the mathy tests well one, higher than the amount of math they had studied.

 

Does anybody have any thoughts about this? Or any suggestions for finding out more information so I have a better chance of getting this right?

 

I am in a total panic about this.

 

-Nan

 

This opinion is given without any knowledge of CC classes and all' date=' but I thought I'd throw in my two cents anyway. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'd be less concerned about boredom than with putting him into his first CC class in one that's too challenging and has the potential to frustrate and discourage. To me, the first CC class is about learning to take more responsibility for your own education and learning how to show up on time when no one is taking attendance, how to learn in a lecture environment, how to get help when needed, how to keep up with assignments when no one is checking, and how to prepare for and take timed tests.

 

Regarding the pre-calc, I would think re-taking it at CC would be ideal. He's learned with you reading the lessons to him. This would be a great opportunity for him to learn from the class lectures and reading the text lessons on his own. He'll already have a pretty good idea on the material, and this would help to cement his knowledge even better. In my opinion, succeeding is important especially with the first couple of CC classes.

 

Regarding the chemistry, I personally wouldn't put someone into the general level class if they haven't had any chemistry in high school. That's what the intro classes are for. Again, I'd set him up for success and let him take the intro. He can always opt to go to the general the next semester. I wouldn't worry so much about the requirement transferring, but would want him to get a good foundation to make it easier when he gets to the college of his choice.

 

I hope he has a great CC experience whatever way you decide. And definitely check with his brother since he's BTDT and knows him well. :)[/quote']

:iagree:Hi Nan! I haven't read all the responses, and I don't have first hand experience with CC, but I agree with Teachin'Mine. I think for chem, I'd put him in the Introductory chem 1 and 2, and not worry about any transfer of chem credits. The introductory course would build his foundation and set him up for success in whatever general chem is required by the engineering school. General chem at the CC could be overwhelming if he doesn't have high school chem background, and that would not set him up to do well. For math, I would go ahead and have him do Precalc 1 and 2. His previous exposure to it will set him up to do well at the CC, and a really good foundation in Precalc is necessary for Calc. Then senior year, I'd go ahead and have him start the CC's calc sequence, but not worry about him getting through all 3 semesters of it--2 is plenty. When he gets to engineering school, they will place him appropriately into their calculus sequence, and figure out what credits transfer, etc. Prospective engineering students come in at various levels in math, so colleges are used to this. At least, that was ds's experience with registration and placement for last fall (he's a freshman this year--in comp sci, but with a foot in engineering too.)

Edited April 1, 2011 by Musicmom
Clarification

[Susan C.]

I'll have to read later, but intro!! And take advantage of the drop period if it isn't going well.

[MomsintheGarden]

It sounds like you are pretty familiar with at least the precalc book the CC uses. Could you dig a little deeper into what exactly is covered in the classes? For instance, you could both visit the bookstore together and look through the texts side by side, like genchem vs. intro. Maybe you could get syllabi from some of the profs to see exactly what's covered. And I especially agree with checking with the uni first. I know that VA Tech lists on its website exactly which courses from VA CCs transfer in, and for which courses. Be careful believing what the CC folks say. I'm sure they tell you things in good faith, but aren't always informed well.

 

Do all this digging with your son. Perhaps you both can figure out what will be the best course of action.

 

GardenMom

[Nan in Mass]

Asking the individual department is a good idea. UMass's admissions department is pretty busy. I doubt they would be helpful about this. The other schools might be more helpful, but I don't know how much experience they have with CC transfer students.

Thank you.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

My older son took the CC precalc, so I have a syllabus and his textbook. The syllabus isn't very detailed. It covers functions, logs, and trig, and then says that if there is time, they will cover polar coordinates, combinations and permutaions, matrices, and probability. I don't know how far they actually got and my son doesn't remember. The tick marks next to the problems stop after the trig. If so, when do they do things like polar coordinates? Do they assume their students have had the basics in algebra 2?

-Nan

[Julie in MN]

I'm a terrible source for this kind of advice; there have been times when I was tempted to give it up and use the dart board method. :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol::lol::lol: