How would you grade this?

[choirfarm]

I just gave a quarter test in history and it consisted of short answer, identification, a map, timeline and an essay. Here is my son's essay. It could be worth as much as 30 points.

 

Martin Luther King Jr. and Ghandi were very similiar. While their situation and goals were different, their methods were the same and the results of their leadership were both mixed. While they lived in different countries, both men lived and died for the cause of nonviolence and were great men.

 

King's and Ghand's situaions and goals were slightly different. King fought for equality and Ghandi fought for Independence. King wanted to help end segretation in the South and prove that blacks were equal to ****es. Ghandi, while he did want to end racism agains Indians, mainly wanted to secure independence from Britain. Ghandi's dream was a free and independent India.

 

While their goals and situations were different, their methods were the same. Both promoted civil disobedience and nonviolence. However, they did not want to disobey and get away with it. Both gladly went to jail to make a point. They wanted people to see that the laws were unjust so that they could be changed. Both did not want their followers to use violence. Both were not trying to get revenge. They were trying to do what they believed was right.

 

King and Ghandi's results were mixed. Martin Luther King saw a civil rights bill passed, but he did not see the end of segretations. And because of the black power movement, tensions between white and blacks increased, and are still around today. While Ghandi did see an independent India, he alswo saw a civil war between Hindus and Muslims and the separation of India into a Muslim India nad a Hindu India.

 

Martin Luther King Jr. and Ghandi were both great men. They had different situations and gols, but both used the same method and had different results than they planned.

 

 

 

So what would you give this for a 10th grade history exam worth a possible 30 points. I'm trying to decide if I am too picky or not. I already pointed out the various errors I saw in the paper like Pakistan instead of a Muslim India. I thought he needed to be more specific and put in very specific things they did like the salt march, Birmingham jail, etc. What do you think? This was handwritten and was nearly 2 pages. Sure looks short here when I typed it.

 

Christine

[IsabelC]

Not sure, but like you, I would have expected it to go into a bit more detail. The structure looks good and logical, however some elaboration and examples to demonstrate the points made would have been nice. I guess how much to include would depend on how much time he had, though.

[ilovemy4kids]

What was the original essay question?

[Halftime Hope]

: )

[choirfarm]

Compare Martin Luther King and Gandhi with regards to their situation and goals; methods used to achieve their goals, and the results of their leadership.

[Murphy101]

Not sure, but like you, I would have expected it to go into a bit more detail. The structure looks good and logical, however some elaboration and examples to demonstrate the points made would have been nice. I guess how much to include would depend on how much time he had, though.

 

I agree. I'd also like to see variation in word use. It sounds rather repetitive.

 

How much time did he have for the test, or just the essay portion?

 

It looks like a decent quick 15 minute essay and he does hit each segment of the question.

 

If he spent significantly longer on the essay, I'd be expecting more.

[Teachin'Mine]

Compare Martin Luther King and Gandhi with regards to their situation and goals; methods used to achieve their goals, and the results of their leadership.

 

In framing the question, I'd add something about needing to support it with specific examples.

 

Instead of grading the essay as it is, I'd use it as a learning experience and teach him that he needs to support everything in an essay, even if the teacher doesn't specifically state that examples are needed.

 

He might want to set it up as a five paragraph with the three paragraphs directly addressing the three areas outlined in the question, with clear examples showing their similarities and/or differences. Then when he's re-worked it, then grade. :) He'll know better what you expect next time - if what I've written is even what you expected. I would think that three paragraphs could have worked nicely too.

[choirfarm]

I agree. I'd also like to see variation in word use. It sounds rather repetitive.

 

How much time did he have for the test, or just the essay portion?

 

It looks like a decent quick 15 minute essay and he does hit each segment of the question.

 

If he spent significantly longer on the essay, I'd be expecting more.

 

There was no time limit. I think he spent over an hour on the test. There were 10 identify like Rosa Parks, Thurgood Marshall, The Great Society and then 10 short answer questions: Give two points in Truman's Fair Deal. He had a map where he had to label 20 places and a timeline with about 20 dates.

 

He is my math kids and wants to follow a formula. I'm trying to work on his using better vocabulary, and varying introductions on regular papers but it take him days to reword them...

[Murphy101]

There was no time limit. I think he spent over an hour on the test. There were 10 identify like Rosa Parks, Thurgood Marshall, The Great Society and then 10 short answer questions: Give two points in Truman's Fair Deal. He had a map where he had to label 20 places and a timeline with about 20 dates.

 

He is my math kids and wants to follow a formula. I'm trying to work on his using better vocabulary, and varying introductions on regular papers but it take him days to reword them...

 

Okay, so the entire test probably took a bit over an hour, and of that he probably spent about 20ish minutes on the essay portion.

 

If he likes a formula, I would give him one for writing. It looks like you already have, as he does follow a basic structure. So that's a good start.

 

Did he have scratch paper? I find that helps my sons. It gives them something to scribble a very quick and brief outline on. Once they have that done, their structure and basic content is already formulated. Then they can focus on the actual wording of putting it together. Before I taught them to do this, and they hated having to do it btw, they would spend more time thinking of what to write, than actually writing. Bc it was a test and they couldn't edit like normal, they got mild brain freeze.:). My oldest is in 10th and without a brief outline and if he only spent 20 (grueling to him) minutes on that portion - I think he would have written a similar paper.

 

Since this is a history test, not an English paper, I would be gentler in my grading and my focus would be different.

 

Did he hit each of the target areas of the question? +1 for each target

Did he give a concrete specific example for each target? +1 for each

General grammar/punct. -1 = poor +1 = average +2 = only a couple or no errors

Is the paper cohesive and logically arranged? -1, +1, or +2 for excellent.

 

This way I am grading the writing, but the bulk of his grade is based on the specific subject of history, not English.

 

For my oldest, I would have given +1 on this paper for the grammar and arrangement, noting what he could do to improve it next time.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Martha

[April in CA]

Hi Christine! When I assign TOG tests, I always review with my guys (some of this is past tense now, since one is in college close to you!). We sometimes use the weekly quiz questions as review (we don't generally do the quizzes weekly), and I typically review the actual test with them orally to make sure they are on the right track.(this is actually fun) We discuss the essay questions at length, and both guys generally have lots to say about them. The discussion helps them frame answers to all the questions, and then they decide which ones they want to answer in writing. I also let the guys decide how long to make each essay, so I sometimes need to adjust the point value of various components of the test. I also award extra credit for giving more than required on short answer questions. We also extend the time limit.

 

In this case, I think I would go back and discuss the question with your son, prompting him for specifics. Then show him how those specifics can make his essay stronger, even if he is laboring under a strict time constraint. Do you let him type his answers? My guys always type their essays (everything on the test except the time-line and the geography) -they typically give a much more complete answer that way!

Hope this helps!

Blessings,

April

[Ester Maria]

Two things.

One, there is too much repetitiveness and "demagogy" in the essay (no need to state twice that they're great men, the opening and the closing paragraph are nearly the same, the actual content is minimal).

Two, I second the idea of the scratch paper to organize one's though - structurally, this isn't bad at all (it has a beginning, a middle and an end and it follows through a certain coherent idea, albeit it doesn't address the situation issue, only the goal / method / result issue), but he gets side-tracked in repeating things and not being specific enough. Half of the essay is a sort of "empty speech", stating generalties he already stated or commonplaces, rather than focusing on specifics.

 

For a quick History answer rather than a premeditated English response, it isn't bad, but my problem with it is that it's not specific enough, and this is the type of subject that tests primarily content knowledge rather than how one wraps it.

[Murphy101]

For a quick History answer rather than a premeditated English response, it isn't bad, but my problem with it is that it's not specific enough, and this is the type of subject that tests primarily content knowledge rather than how one wraps it.

 

I agree. I don't know how well the topic was covered, tho it sounds thorough, so only the instructor would know where to score him on what specifics should have been mentioned in his essay. I gave a simple rubric for it, but as to whether he met that - that would be up to the teacher. It sounds as tho he would have missed a +1 for each lack of specific example for each target. But I can't say for sure as I'm not the teacher.:)

[choirfarm]

But none of you answered the question.... What score would you give it?? I already suggested he use a piece of paper to outline his answer as he was taking the test. ( He didn't.) Afterwards, we discussed how he can use the test to help him answer a question like that. Skim through and when you see Rosa Parks you will think, "Oh, the bus boycott." You see Salt march on the identify and go, "Oh.. that would be good for Ghandi." That said, his essay was much better than the 8th grade 1/2 a page one. Then I think to how pitiful my students were in ps. So then I think is giving 20 out of 30 or 15 out of 30 too harsh?? Or is it too easy?? GRR. I already used the teachable moment right after it happened and we wrote one together that would be much better. I just don't know how to grade it if that makes sense. Sorry, I didn't make my question very clear.

[Murphy101]

But none of you answered the question.... What score would you give it?? I already suggested he use a piece of paper to outline his answer as he was taking the test. ( He didn't.) Afterwards, we discussed how he can use the test to help him answer a question like that. Skim through and when you see Rosa Parks you will think, "Oh, the bus boycott." You see Salt march on the identify and go, "Oh.. that would be good for Ghandi." That said, his essay was much better than the 8th grade 1/2 a page one. Then I think to how pitiful my students were in ps. So then I think is giving 20 out of 30 or 15 out of 30 too harsh?? Or is it too easy?? GRR. I already used the teachable moment right after it happened and we wrote one together that would be much better. I just don't know how to grade it if that makes sense. Sorry, I didn't make my question very clear.

 

No, it's not too harsh. I'd give 14-15, he hit each target, for mechanics/structure, but zero concrete specifics.

[jld]

I think a 21 or 23 over 30 would be fine. My gosh, it wasn't terrible. It just needs some improvement. A 21 or 23 would be a C, right? Average. It might even be better than an average history test essay in some schools, right? No need to totally destroy the kid. Just show him how he can improve, and give him the motivation to do so next time (a higher grade that he will have indeed earned). Obviously, this is jmho, because I don't grade history essays.:D

[Amy in CO]

I usually have a rubric of some sort that helps me to grade essays. But in my mind I will think that is about a B paper, or a C paper, or whatever. But I still go through the rubric and use that. If both my thought and the rubric come up with the same grade, that is what they get. If they don't match I try to see if I was too strict in my thoughts or if the rubric wasn't grading what I wanted it too, is so I adjust it.

 

As far as what I would grade this paper, if it was my daughter, I would probably give her a B-. But we would discuss it alot so that she would be clear as to what I expected next time. And the next time I would grade a little harsher, expecting her to applied what we discussed. Meaning that if she turned in a similar a second time, it would be a C or C+. I would continue to grade harsher if she didn't meet the expectations of the assignment.

[Koerarmoca]

I agree with the B-

 

I think it was well written. I think he just skimped on some of the details you wanted him to add. I know for my kids when they have a writing assignment from school I have to take the essay question and elaborate on it because they just don't know how to make a 500 word essay on "who was Helen Keller" I need to prompt them more than that. More of a who, what, where, why, when, how kind of approach. I think maybe just adding "explain in detail" or "elaborate on" to the essay question might of helped to form his thoughts better. If he is a child like mine that takes it so personal when the get less than perfect marks. Is a re-do acceptable? or maybe having him write on one of the important parts he missed for extra credit.

[Ester Maria]

But none of you answered the question.... What score would you give it??

If you insist on that scale - it is actually the Italian university scale LOL - I would give it 18-19, which would correspond to a D.

 

The essay satisfies all the criteria needed to be promoted, even to be promoted with 19 maybe, but it doesn't offer anything which would further the vote to a C or a B, it stays on the level sufficient for a promotion only. So, 18-19, not above that, I'm afraid - but not below either, because on that scale being below 18 would not make him pass that part of the exam (18/30 is the lowest sufficient grade on that scale).

Edited March 24, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Murphy101]

If you insist on that scale - it is actually the Italian university scale LOL - I would give it 18-19, which would correspond to a D.

 

The essay satisfies all the criteria needed to be promoted, even to be promoted with 19 maybe, but it doesn't offer anything which would further the vote to a C or a B, it stays on the level sufficient for a promotion only. So, 18-19, not above that, I'm afraid - but not below either, because on that scale being below 18 would not make him pass that part of the exam (18/30 is the lowest sufficient grade on that scale).

 

Ohhhh. I change my mind. I agree with EM.

 

And to be fair, I didn't bother calculating the grade. I just tallied the rubric I proposed and moved on. Sorry if that offended anyone.

[jld]

It's good to see how people grade, and to understand why. I think we're all learning from each other.

[Murphy101]

It really is.

 

I probably grade the way I do bc I always hated having my writing graded up through high school. It seemed grades were based almost entirely on whether the teacher "liked" it. So vague and useless a barometer to me bc I never particularly cared about their opinion. WHY did it get that grade? WHAT would have changed that? What SPECIFICLY were they wanting from me? It was very frustrating.

 

I was in college freshman comp before I ever had a teacher give very clear and detailed rubrics as well as clearly defined requirements in the writing assignments. It was very freeing to know my work was not based on some vague abstract feeling of it looks or feels like a B or whatever paper.

 

Obviously other people, judging by the groans in my college English classes, would disagree and I am the odd duck out on yet another topic.:tongue_smilie:

Edited March 24, 2011 by Martha

[LauraQ]

I'd say 15-20 out of 30 would be about right, and not too harsh. Sure you can use this as a teaching opportunity yada yada but bottom line he didn't meet your expectations, and your expectations were not unreasonable for that age. He had LOTS of fluff and filler in that essay, but no specific examples to back it up, no meat and facts. That wouldn't cut it for me, either.

[jld]

I think it's really important to provide encouragement as well as correction to kids. A grade that seems fair to the grader, but harsh to the student may discourage further interest in the subject and a belief that he just can't do the subject well, so why bother trying? Students have feelings, too.

 

You know, I'm wondering how many of us have experience teaching average public high school kids. We all teach our own kids, and some have said that they tutor, or teach co-op classes, though I'm not sure exactly what that means. Do these co-op classes meet once a week for an hour, or more often? Do the moms do some of the teaching on their own? Do the moms have professional teaching experience, or a degree in the subject, or what?

 

It has been a long, long time since I taught in public schools, but I don't remember lots of geniuses running through the corridors. Most kids were average, some hard-working, some not. All of them had feelings, and most responded to kindness and empathy. I'm not saying we shouldn't share the truth with kids about where they are right now and where we want to help them to get to, because they do need that. We don't want them crying in their dorm room after their college instructor has ripped apart the first paper they write. We want them to go in already having an idea of what is expected. But I bet it is possible to do this in a kindly, positive, encouraging way.

 

Christine, I agree with the pp who suggested this just be a practice essay. (It was probably TM; she is always so kind.:)) I would probably just grade the test without the essay, or give him a chance to redo it before you grade it. The grade isn't the point, anyway; learning is.

[choirfarm]

I guess since it was part of a big quarter test, I'm not really concerned. I mean he only missed 5 points on the rest of the test. What I did even before I posted was to take off 10 out of the 30 points on the essay. That means his grade on the whole exam was an 85. I did explain how it wasn't specific enough. ( He said he knew I would say that!) I then showed him how to use the test as a way to help you take an essay test. We skimmed through and found the name Rosa Parks... that should make you think bus boycott for Martin Luther King. You see Salt March for an identify and think, oh that would be a good example for Ghandi. You add these notes to your outline on your scratch paper before you ever start writing!! If he doesn't have an outline next test, I will hand it back to him. He didn't dissolve in tears. He took it well and agreed with my grade. I just didn't know if it was too easy. Sounds like maybe a little... But I'm not too far off.

 

I just second guess myself. Am I too hard? Am I too easy?? It is hard to be objective with your own child.

[Teachin'Mine]

Jld you are way too kind! I don't think my dd would agree with you. :lol:

 

I would have given him another try at re-writing the essay using specific examples. As was said, this is a test showing what he's learned about these two people and then using this knowledge to draw a comparison. In order to show a likeness, or a difference, there has to be substantial evidence given. What makes it hard is that only you know how far in depth you covered this subject, but being that you made it an essay question, I'm guessing it was covered fairly well.

 

Considering that, then IMO there should be much more than two examples. There should be examples of their specific reasons for doing what they did, their philosophy regarding how to achieve their goals, what guidelines they set up for themselves and others to follow, how they engaged others in their efforts, what they specifically did, how they handled opposition to their cause, and the outcome. I know that all these areas probably wouldn't be addressed in a high school essay, but at least two or three of them should have been - again IMO. I'd suggest that when starting an essay like this that the student make a list of what they know about each of them and then use that within the essay. So, from his essay, it's hard to tell whether he just didn't know what should be included in the essay, or whether he hadn't studied about the two of them well enough to include specific information. I remember writing a few test essays which sounded very nice, I think, but said very little. It was usually reflected in the grade. :tongue_smilie:

 

To be honest, I think I'd be too hard in grading writing and it's one of the reasons I wanted to have someone else do the grading. Dd lets me read her papers after she's sent them to be graded. :lol:

[choirfarm]

Jld you are way too kind! I don't think my dd would agree with you. :lol:

 

I What makes it hard is that only you know how far in depth you covered this subject' date=' but being that you made it an essay question, I'm guessing it was covered fairly well.

 

. :lol:[/quote']

 

Well, we used TOG and this test covered Truman, Korean War, Civil Rights, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Vietnam War and LBJ. They could choose this essay question or one that compared Eisenhower and Kennedy. I was surprised he didn't choose that one as I saw he had made a study sheet for each president that was substantial.

[Murphy101]

I think it's really important to provide encouragement as well as correction to kids. A grade that seems fair to the grader, but harsh to the student may discourage further interest in the subject and a belief that he just can't do the subject well, so why bother trying? Students have feelings, too.

 

You know, I'm wondering how many of us have experience teaching average public high school kids. We all teach our own kids, and some have said that they tutor, or teach co-op classes, though I'm not sure exactly what that means. Do these co-op classes meet once a week for an hour, or more often? Do the moms do some of the teaching on their own? Do the moms have professional teaching experience, or a degree in the subject, or what?

 

What in the world?:confused: What does that have to do with anything?:001_huh:

 

If the grade is fair, the grade is fair whether the student likes it or is discouraged by it or not. Grades are based on the quality of the work, not how emotional the student might become about the grade.

 

I haven't seen anyone suggest to not provide encouragement. Sure everyone needs to be encouraged. The best encouragement, IMHO, is insight and tips on how to improve the next time around so they do know they can do better and exactly how to make that happen.

 

And no, I have never taught professionally. I've had my share of teachers and unfair grading, same as others I imagine.;)

 

We aren't teaching a class.

 

We are teaching our own children.

 

If they are discouraged by a grade, it is our job to encourage them by explaining the simple remedy: listen to what the teacher says to do to improve it next time and assist them in practicing those skills until it is easier.

 

This is one essay. And it is only one part of the test, which it appears he did okay with overall.

 

Nothing to cry about, just another learning opportunity.

 

To OP. It sounds like you handled it just fine to me.:)

 

I freely admit I am harsher on my kids than most professional public school teachers would be and my kids know it. Yet it doesn't seem to be much of an issue here.

 

I'm not upset, just honestly baffled as to why any teacher would put so much emotion into grades, particularly for any one assignment. That is just... An illogical manner of grading that would not occur to me as a teacher, nor be appreciated by me as a student.

 

Obviously YMMV.

[Teachin'Mine]

I remember in ps being graded by a very tough teacher in senior year based on what he thought our ability was. We were asked our SAT scores at the beginning of class, and all grades were based on those scores. If you scored low, you usually got an easy A. If you scored well, you fought hard to come out above a C. Fair? Not really. But he was the teacher and had been grading this class that way for years. Can't say my writing didn't inch up a notch to try to meet his expectations. :tongue_smilie: And I'm sure it was a huge boost to some of the students who usually got C's in English to be getting good grades. It would be interesting to know what impact it had on them.

 

All that to say that all teachers are different. No one way is right and another wrong, especially when it comes to teaching our own children. To me the goal of schooling is to learn. How each teacher helps her students to learn is a matter of personal preference and catering to each student's particular needs.

[Ester Maria]

I completely agree with Martha's response, though I thought I would add a word or two myself.

I think it's really important to provide encouragement as well as correction to kids. A grade that seems fair to the grader, but harsh to the student may discourage further interest in the subject and a belief that he just can't do the subject well, so why bother trying? Students have feelings, too.

Grades are based on concrete knowledge demonstrated on an exam (rather than the student's feelings, the current weather, the political circumstances, your own feelings towards the student, etc.) - please note that basing a grade on anything else, anything other than concrete knowledge, is an instance of INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY (and this is in caps not because I am "yelling", but because I truly want to emphasize the weight of those words).

 

Of course, I realize that it is highly unlikely that you wanted it to come across the way I read it, but I suppose that this is what makes Martha and me a bit confused / baffled. Grades cannot be based on sympathy, emphathy, encouragement or any other of the intangible categories that belong to the "private" (rather than "professional") sphere - of course that to everyone their own kids are the most awesome and always a bit fragile creatures in our minds, it's understandable ;), but we cannot take that into account when we grade things. The grade has to be fair - how we're going to communicate that grade is where your observations enter, but the grade itself has to be fair.

 

Imagine encouragement like a distinct category, the one which deals with effort, persistence, fostering a positive relationship with work and academics, etc. The grade being fair isn't antithetical to encouragement, the two are simply separated categories. Encouragement enters in how you communicate the grade, not in the grade itself. The grade itself is like justice, blind to all those "personal" things. :)

It has been a long, long time since I taught in public schools, but I don't remember lots of geniuses running through the corridors. Most kids were average, some hard-working, some not. All of them had feelings, and most responded to kindness and empathy.

Maybe offtopic, but an average student with an average (assumed) effort should earn an average grade, i.e. a C - that is how a good scale is supposed to be set up.

 

What happens though is that we often have a grade inflation in our schools, so the situation of an average student with an average effort usually corresponds to a B or even an A. In such a system, grades lose their true value. As are supposed to be exceptional rather than a rule in nearly every class. Every passing grade is worth of recognition and its dignity if a student's knowledge backs it up. I am always baffled when my daughters tell me of their private school friends who "you know, mom, if they get a C, they don't want to say it out loud" in their schools. It just completely escapes me, the whole "everybody needs to be able to get an A" mentality, "let's rewrite the part of the test so you get that A/B and we won't count this", students crying over passing grades, etc. That's what grade inflation leads to. Just my .02 though.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Teachin'Mine]

I wonder what grades Abraham Lincoln and other self-educators got??? He turned out to be a not-too-shabby writer. ;)

[Murphy101]

I wonder what grades Abraham Lincoln and other self-educators got??? He turned out to be a not-too-shabby writer. ;)

 

Abraham Lincoln was not entirely self taught, though his formal classroom exposure was minimal, likely less than a couple years, until he sought his education in law. According to his own words, he deeply regretted his lack of formal education and thus worked hard to make up for it's lack as best he could and as necessity required of him.

 

It is all well and good to suggest we do like him, but we shouldn't ignore the fact he repeatedly stated he deeply regretted and even resented his father for not giving him a better education.

[jld]

Martha and EM, the reason I asked what teaching experience people have is that I think it may color the way we grade. I think it's fine for home educators to grade their children any way they like, and it's fine to be what other people may consider harsh. They're your children, you know what they can handle, and you have a plan for getting them where you want them to be.

 

But I think that when we are offering grades of other people's writing, it can be helpful to have some perspective. It's not essential, and everyone's opinion is valuable. But I bet a teacher who has read essays from 500 kids may grade a little differently than a tutor who has occasional students, or a mom of one or two high schoolers.

 

And certainly, some teachers, like some mothers, or some tutors, are more sensitive than others. I started teaching when I was 22, and I was really interested in the purity of the grades. Gosh, I see that differently now. If I were to go back to teaching, I would certainly care about giving the kids a quality education, but I would be just as concerned about being kind and caring, and treating them with respect and consideration.

 

And TM, I totally agree with the spirit of your last post. Thank you for saying it. Home education really has the freedom to be about learning, and not grading.:)

 

One more thought: Dh grew up in France and was really delighted to get a 10/20 in anything. It's not like that here in America. The cultural context must be taken into account. I could not have used the same standards when I was teaching that dh's teachers used and not had mutiny from the students and their parents. Different cultures really are different.

[Murphy101]

 

But I think that when we are offering grades of other people's writing, it can be helpful to have some perspective.

 

I would certainly care about giving the kids a quality education, but I would be just as concerned about being kind and caring, and treating them with respect and consideration.

 

And TM, I totally agree with the spirit of your last post. Thank you for saying it. Home education really has the freedom to be about learning, and not grading.:)

 

Different cultures really are different.

 

Again. What in the world...?:001_huh: In a nutshell, you don't want Ester and Martha to post here.

 

We all have perspective, different though they might be, and we all care about giving our kids a quality education, different though our opinions on that might be. I presume that much general good will of each poster here until proven otherwise. You insinuate that EM and I do not care about being kind and caring and treating our students/children with respect and consideration because we insist on fair grading? Seriously? You type it nicely, but it is still insulting and untrue. And illogical as one does not cancel the other in any circumstance I can think of at the moment.

 

ANY decent education is about the learning. Grading is a means to determine what has been learned and what is yet to be learned. Fudging grades, or inflating if that terms suits better, out of some misguided sense of niceness does nothing more than distort the usefulness of grading and the value of the grade.

 

As for culture. I suppose this was intended as discouragement (irony there eh?) to ester bc of her Italian culture background? She isn't the only one with this perspective, in or out of the US. Time and again, there are conversations on this board about how Americans should learn from the positive education models from Europe and Asia. Good grief. I'm in Oklahoma. It might be a very different culture than LA or DC, but it isn't like I'm introducing foreign ideas on grading or writing here either.:confused:

 

This sub forum, I thought, was a way for us to give insight to help each other - to garner different perspectives, styles, opinions, and tips to help us help our children. Yet this is the second time it has been used to disparage as harsh, inconsiderate, and unkind those perceived as too strict.

 

I see no benefit to this for the OP or anyone else. No poster is required to only take the advice of any one of us or any of us. If the opinion does not seem to reflect the need of their child, then by all means don't take it. If a poster has a different teaching style or requirements, no other poster is required to adopt it. The purpose here, in theory, is to share and encourage. No judgement of parent/teacher or student needed. I find it ironic the very posters claiming Ester and I are not encouraging are actively discouraging us.:001_huh:

 

And this was why I purposely tried to avoid giving a grade to the OP until she point blank requested it. Rather I said what my requirements would be and how I would tally and wrote she should use her own judgement to go from there, as she best knows what is reasonable for him to have accomplished based on what she has presented to him.

 

And back on that topic.

 

OP, I cannot tell you how many times I have handed a paper back to my sons for redo for vague content empty writing. It seems to be a typical hurdle that they will over come with due practice and diligent instruction. Neither of you should feel badly about it. It's just yet another learning journey that years from now will be remembered ruefully as glad to have moved past.;):grouphug:

[jld]

Martha, it might be a good idea to avoid making accusations of other people's motives.

 

If we want, we can come here to offer our thoughts, consider another perspective, challenge our own thinking, and maybe finish at the end with greater understanding, even if we ultimately disagree.

 

I am indeed concerned about the feelings of young people. But certainly others may be concerned in different ways. Explaining how different approaches can demonstrate concern might be enlightening.

 

I can tell you that I was not nearly as concerned with how the young people I taught felt as I am now. Back then, I was just focused on academics. I really regret that I didn't have the maturity to nurture the whole person, meet him where he was, and yet gently encourage him to improve. But I didn't have it, and so I couldn't be what I think I could be now. But now I have all these kids, and I probably won't go back to classroom teaching any time soon, if ever. But maybe someone reading out there can learn from what I perceive to be my mistakes.

 

It really is tricky to balance encouragement with enlightenment. If we are never corrected, we can't grow, or we grow more slowly than we otherwise might. Criticism truly is a gift.

 

At the same time, we probably need the emotional security to be able to hear the criticism in the first place, decide what is helpful from it, and leave the rest. I'm not sure all young people have this, and I think it's worth keeping in mind as we offer correction.

[Ester Maria]

Dh grew up in France and was really delighted to get a 10/20 in anything. It's not like that here in America. The cultural context must be taken into account. I could not have used the same standards when I was teaching that dh's teachers used and not had mutiny from the students and their parents. Different cultures really are different.

Haven't we opened that can of worms already? :D

 

The notorious cultural differences issue inevitably enter the discussion at some point, as no education occurs in a vacuum. However, that doesn't mean that some common practices - such as grade inflation - cannot be condemned even from a viewpoint of that culture itself. I find that the American culture, indeed, has VERY high academic honesty standards regarding many things (being caught in some practices in Italy would "only" make you fail, with a warning, while the same thing might actually get you permanently kicked out of some institutions in America), so obviously the concept of academic honesty not only exists, but is indeed fixed in stone (well, paper) in nearly every institution. Why then such a shock when some of us argue that it be respected and that grades be fully merited?

 

Now, standards... that's a true can of worms. ;) I don't like Gauss, I never did, and I fully believe that exceptional classes filled only with As and Bs may occur, but if with some professor they're a rule more than exception, I do find something is wrong with the scale and expectations used. Just like I am suspicious of university professors who boast the passing rate of something like 10% of students per exam session - not that there isn't a theoretical possibility that what they're doing is correct, but if in every generation only 10% of people manage to pass at the first try and then only another 10% on the second try, then maybe something needs to be reexamined there, the criteria might be slightly off. But keep in mind, the reverse is true too. The classes in which consistently nobody fails and consistently half of the class gets promoted with flying colors are equally suspicious to my eyes and I don't think it's fair to bulge our eyes for the former and close them for the latter. Both are instances of "something is probably wrong".

I can tell you that I was not nearly as concerned with how the young people I taught felt as I am now. Back then, I was just focused on academics. I really regret that I didn't have the maturity to nurture the whole person, meet him where he was, and yet gently encourage him to improve.

Are you talking about teaching in an institutional setting? In such circumstances, you are much more a "slave" to an outside form, for better and... for worse. You often have to assume a "business only" approach, as there is usually no time for anything else, and it truly isn't your fault if students aren't prepared academically or don't have the emotional maturity or guidance needed. As the institutions dictates where they "should" be, you have to meet them there and grade them based on that. Homeschooling is a lot more flexible in all aspects... but it doesn't mean it may be devoid of the fairness part, especially if you issue your own grades rather than leave the grading part to a third party.

 

I have a love-hate relationship with the institution, personally. I get some of your frustration, I really do, probably more than you can imagine - one truly breathes more freely outside of it. However, I get their perspective too and I get the "why" of such a rigid way of thinking. Often a teacher, even mature ones, can basically choose between two evils - the blind formalism towards the student (not taking into account where he is, how to "pad up" the feedback for him to respond positively, basically not caring for anything other than formalities and presenting those as the ultimate goal, etc.) or compromising one's own standards and those of the institution, thus maybe helping him, but at which cost for your own integrity? It's hard, life can get so unfair.

 

I still choose integrity - with many sighs, many "but"s, many realizations of how deeply meaningless an education without a moral / personal sphere is, and of how life is much broader than an academic sphere... But ultimately within that academic sphere, that one small isolated moment of life, I insist that things be graded according to knowledge demonstrated only.

 

(I may be totally misreading your post, though, as you didn't give specifics. If so, disregard the reply on the second quote.)

[Teachin'Mine]

Abraham Lincoln was not entirely self taught, though his formal classroom exposure was minimal, likely less than a couple years, until he sought his education in law. According to his own words, he deeply regretted his lack of formal education and thus worked hard to make up for it's lack as best he could and as necessity required of him.

 

It is all well and good to suggest we do like him, but we shouldn't ignore the fact he repeatedly stated he deeply regretted and even resented his father for not giving him a better education.

 

Yes, I've read this in previous threads on similar topics. I would never suggest that we raise our children in a like manner; we are here because we educate our children. I was simply trying to find a nice way of supporting Jld while not crossing the line myself. There are many ways of teaching our children. Grading is involved in some of them, but not all, and even then to varying degrees. We need to share our own ways and opinions, but I also think we need to respect each other as well.

[Jean in Wisc]

What grade would I give?

 

If I had handed this to my son and he had to write the test and do the essay in a class period (about an hour or so), I'd say he had done quite well. Yes, he could have added more details and supported it better, but would anyone have had time to go into more detail in such a small time period? (Or was he given as much time and as many days as he needed?) Was there a suggested length? There is a structure that is easily followed and he answers the questions that shows he knows something about both.

 

I have not read the whole thread, but it looks like a lot of the moms don't like the essay. I've given short essay exams for all of my history classes in high school--they usually have to answer 5 to 7 questions. Mine never get anything near this long--but maybe what I am asking of my dc is much different.

 

Did you expect a 5-paragraph essay? Did you expect him to take much more time on this? If this was a 1-hour test and there were a number of other questions he was answering, I would not expect a student to be able to produce a lot more than this--there simply wasn't time. If those were the conditions I would not consider giving him anything lower than a B+, depending upon how much studying of this subject he had done. Sitting down and writing a paper off the top of my head would not be as great as a paper that was allowed to simmer and be rewritten over several days. If that were the case (if he were given as much as he needed), this would get a C for sure.

 

Maybe I'm just a easy grader. ??? My kids are doing GREAT in college English and history, so I guess they survived me. :001_smile:

 

Jean

Edited March 26, 2011 by Jean in Wisc

[jld]

EM, I appreciated your post. Thoughtful explanation of positions is always enlightening and stimulating. I grow from having my own pre-judgments challenged, and am convinced we have to be willing to consider changing our thinking if stronger evidence can be found for a different point of view. Thank you for contributing to this discussion.

 

Jean, you taught English and Spanish before you had your children, right? Do you think having that experience influenced how you graded? Have you found yourself weighing a student's or child's feelings against the absolute veracity of a grade? Which direction did you tend to lean in? Why?

 

And btw, I think your methods must have worked, too. :D Congratulations!

[Jean in Wisc]

Jean, you taught English and Spanish before you had your children, right? Do you think having that experience influenced how you graded? Have you found yourself weighing a student's or child's feelings against the absolute veracity of a grade? Which direction did you tend to lean in? Why?

 

I taught English as a 2nd Language in the public schools.

 

I'm not sure why I grade as I do. I think some of it is from my experience of homeschooling. My 1st child couldn't write her way out of a box if her life had depended upon it, and I was SOOOO afraid she would never be able to do anything. We worked and studied and worked...and then she got a good enough ACT to go after a 4-year scholarship and the scholarship committee dubbed her essay "smokin' hot"--and she got the scholarship. I was floored. Her honors English prof asked her several times if she wanted to major in English.

 

My 2nd child is a good writer but he did not do fantastic work for me--I had to pull it out of him. But he worked hard in his college English class, and he has had more than one comment about his skills. One English teacher said he is handing in papers that are as good or better than anything she's seen at this school.

 

Also, I've worked with public school kids from this area. I've been aghast at what they write (awful) and the grades they get (A's and B's). I have a hard time giving my kids C's and D's for work that is better than their peers'. What benefit is it to my children to have a lower grade point average for better work? They need to be able to compete with other students who are applying for college scholarships, so why would I want to deflate their grades?

 

Perhaps some areas of the country have better schools than ours. Perhaps some folks are trying to get into more competitive schools than what we are. I don't know. But I do know that there are a lot of people on these boards that have expectations that make me wonder--wonder how they get their children to work 12 hours a day on school (they must when I see the book lists!) or wonder about the expectations they have on how much and how well a child should be able to write at fairly young ages (maybe my kids are poorer students?). I'd love to get into some of these homes and see how they do it! My kids are ready to expand into college writing by the time they get to college. I've not figured out how to get them to do college level work earlier. I marvel at those of you who do.

 

Generally, I look for improvement over the years and I try to teach them what they need. I drill and teach and work with them so that they can do in college what their grade point average suggests they will be able to do. Sometimes I refuse to grade a paper--I tossed my ds's research paper back at him and had him start over because it was obvious he did not understand what I expected of him. If he learns to write a good research paper and if he gets it figured out by the end of the year, he will get a good grade. I not only give them credit for what they write but for what they learn...if the 1st essay stinks, I don't just give them an F but keep giving them essays until we get to the quality of writing that I want (or finally decide this is the best they can do). THEN I give them an essay that I will grade.

 

Nope. Public school kids don't get these kinds of opportunities. But my dc's grades reflect what they know and what they can do. If I have a kid who will not put his nose to the grind stone and learn what I expect out of him or if I have a child who simply cannot learn what I think is necessary, the grades reflect that.

 

And, perhaps, in view of the original post...I had a ton of essays on tests when I was in college. I did a quick outline and then wrote like mad, trying to get as much on the page as I could. There was no time to go back and try to add and rewrite and rethink. There was, perhaps, 20 minutes to come up with a basic answer and put it into coherent thought. Most of the time there was not enough time to flesh the topic out. Their was a limit to how fast a pencil could move across the page.

 

Have any of you sat down of late and tried to write a 5 paragraph essay with supporting evidence in 20 minutes or less?

 

On the other hand, each of us is dealing with students we know. We know how much we can push them. Each of them is different. That is the joy of homeschooling. What is right and works for me may not be your choice.

 

I'm O.K. with that.

 

:) Jean

 

P.S. Oh--a child's feelings aren't as important to me as a child's willingness to push and work hard and move forward and do the best work he is able to do. A child who goes from doing F work at the beginning of the year and ends up knowing how to write A papers by the end of the year has learned what I want him to know--and I make his grade reflect his ability.

 

I struggle more with giving good grades to kids who do great work but are lazy and do not reach their potential.

 

(And now, I shall hit submit without a final proof...hopefully it is not too dreadful of an example of writing, but I'm tired and I really need to go to bed!!! LOL!)

Edited March 26, 2011 by Jean in Wisc

[jld]

Thanks for taking the time to write that out, Jean. Lots of points to ponder there . . .

[Jean in Wisc]

You're welcome.

 

:) Jean