Socratic Method in Grammar Stage

[Tracy]

In another thread, we were talking about the use of the Socratic method in the Grammar stage. So I was wondering if any of you out there are using it for your little ones and if you could give some examples of how it works for you.

[jewellsmommy]

In another thread, we were talking about the use of the Socratic method in the Grammar stage. So I was wondering if any of you out there are using it for your little ones and if you could give some examples of how it works for you.

 

 

:lurk5: just curious.

[kalanamak]

REad this wonderful article.

 

http://www.garlikov.com/Soc_Meth.html

 

I used it today introducing equivalent fractions. Our session was 45 minutes, and I'll find out tomorrow if it stuck. :)

 

I tried it on Mind Benders A1, but we'll need a second session. "Process of elimination" is still cloudy.

[Guest]

In another thread, we were talking about the use of the Socratic method in the Grammar stage. So I was wondering if any of you out there are using it for your little ones and if you could give some examples of how it works for you.

 

OK, here I am :).

 

Like you said in the other thread it was one of the reasons why BFSU appealed to me also. The approach made me think of the Socratic method but I did have to modify it to fit my family's needs. Anyway, I have been following my own approach for the G age group with my son. I use it for science, history, our daily life... and the list goes on. I rarely answer his questions directly. I am always asking him "Well, what do you think?" and if he has difficulty reasoning I guide him with further questions like "Well, what would happen if this were true?" or "What would happen if we did not do this this way and we did it this way instead?". I had an amazing middle school teacher (for history and LA) back home where the Socratic method originated from :) that used this approach and I loved her for it. She was very demanding and not well liked by most. I loved how she challenged me and I try to do the same with my son. Sometimes I wonder if I have patterned my approach after my teacher :lol:. She is one of two teacher's I will never forget.

[~Amanda~]

OK, here I am :).

 

Like you said in the other thread it was one of the reasons why BFSU appealed to me also. The approach made me think of the Socratic method but I did have to modify it to fit my family's needs. Anyway, I have been following my own approach for the G age group with my son. I use it for science, history, our daily life... and the list goes on. I rarely answer his questions directly. I am always asking him "Well, what do you think?" and if he has difficulty reasoning I guide him with further questions like "Well, what would happen if this were true?" or "What would happen if we did not do this this way and we did it this way instead?". I had an amazing middle school teacher (for history and LA) back home where the Socratic method originated from :) that used this approach and I loved her for it. She was very demanding and not well liked by most. I loved how she challenged me and I try to do the same with my son. Sometimes I wonder if I have patterned my approach after my teacher :lol:. She is one of two teacher's I will never forget.

cool, this is what i do with my kids. didnt know it was called anything :lol:

[Guest]

cool, this is what i do with my kids. didnt know it was called anything :lol:

 

Amanda, the Socratic method is far from being as simple as that. What we are discussing here is ways of implementing the idea behind it with younger kids (G level) since TOG does not encourage it for the age group.

 

One thing that is a concern where the Socratic method is concerned, at least in my point of view, is that it can be a very powerful weapon in the wrong hands, especially where young children are concerned. While I had a great middle school teacher that tried in her own way to introduce the philosophy behind it to us, using it as a tool to lead us to logical reasoning on for example the reasons behind the Trojan war, in later years I also saw it used by teachers to push their own agendas (political mostly). Not sure, but this may be one of the reasons why the authors of TOG do not encourage it for the younger group. Disclaimer: I am not saying this is the reason, just making an assumption here :).

 

In my case, I try to use it as loosely as I can. Being the teacher-mom it is unavoidable not to have an agenda, to a certain degree. It is very difficult to draw a line and not pass on your own biases to your child. I try really hard but I am not always as successful. Good thing I have taught my son to be a thinker from a young age though. He questions/ challenges me every step of the way sometimes :tongue_smilie:.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Guest

[Guest]

In another thread, we were talking about the use of the Socratic method in the Grammar stage. So I was wondering if any of you out there are using it for your little ones and if you could give some examples of how it works for you.

 

Tracy, how do you approach this in your own home?

[Guest]

REad this wonderful article.

 

http://www.garlikov.com/Soc_Meth.html

 

I used it today introducing equivalent fractions. Our session was 45 minutes, and I'll find out tomorrow if it stuck. :)

 

I tried it on Mind Benders A1, but we'll need a second session. "Process of elimination" is still cloudy.

 

I was just checking out your link. Interesting! Thank you for posting it :). I have a lot more reading to do on this but I have some other things to deal with and research first. I had a discussion on this with my dad the last time we spoke on the phone. My dad is old school educated in Greece. I wish I had his books here! Anyway, keeping the link to read again when I don't have half a million things hanging over my head. Thanks again.

[peacefully]

I have The Art of Socratic Questioning and many other books from The Critical Thinking Community (http://www.criticalthinking.ORG as opposed to The Critical Thinking Company at the dot com). Highly recommend their materials!

[Tracy]

Tracy, how do you approach this in your own home?

 

We do a lot of what you describe. We try not to always directly answer our dc's questions if the answer can be discovered by them with a little guidance. I observed something interesting with dd6 the other day. We read something that referred to the Law of Moses as a "dead law," and she asked what that meant. As I was formulating the answer, she answered her own question. "Latin is a dead language, and that means that people don't use it anymore, so the Law of Moses is "dead" because it is not used anymore." Of course, that was not entirely true, but I was really proud of her for using her own powers of reasoning. She was able to do this in part because she is naturally good at it, but I would like to think that is also the result of growing up in a house where this kind of thinking is taught and encouraged. (However, I admit that in this example, I was not thinking about using the Socratic method and was just going to answer her question directly.:tongue_smilie:)

 

In addition to answering my dc's questions with Socratic questions, I also try to come up with questions that I think they may enjoy finding their own answers to. "Why are male and female cardinals colored differently?" "Why does the ball always roll in the same direction when you set it on the floor?" "Why are windows made out of glass?"

 

We know that Grammar stage is the point where children are soaking up information like sponges. But I also think that young children need and want to make connections between those bits of information. They want to organize it and make it more meaningful. Dr. Nebel, the author of BFSU, talks about this in his book Nebel's Elementary Education. He suggests that making these connections is what makes learning exciting. As an example, while studying geometric solids in math, "What does this solid (the pyramid shaped one) remind you of?" Dd6 was able to say that it looked like an Egyptian pyramid.

 

Of course, all of this is easier when you use curricula that utilize the Socratic method. BFSU is top-notch when it comes to this method of teaching. CSMP math also uses it a lot. I do wish that TOG included it for the G stage. Does anyone know of any others?

[Guest]

We do a lot of what you describe. We try not to always directly answer our dc's questions if the answer can be discovered by them with a little guidance. I observed something interesting with dd6 the other day. We read something that referred to the Law of Moses as a "dead law," and she asked what that meant. As I was formulating the answer, she answered her own question. "Latin is a dead language, and that means that people don't use it anymore, so the Law of Moses is "dead" because it is not used anymore." Of course, that was not entirely true, but I was really proud of her for using her own powers of reasoning. She was able to do this in part because she is naturally good at it, but I would like to think that is also the result of growing up in a house where this kind of thinking is taught and encouraged. (However, I admit that in this example, I was not thinking about using the Socratic method and was just going to answer her question directly.:tongue_smilie:)

 

In addition to answering my dc's questions with Socratic questions, I also try to come up with questions that I think they may enjoy finding their own answers to. "Why are male and female cardinals colored differently?" "Why does the ball always roll in the same direction when you set it on the floor?" "Why are windows made out of glass?"

 

We know that Grammar stage is the point where children are soaking up information like sponges. But I also think that young children need and want to make connections between those bits of information. They want to organize it and make it more meaningful. Dr. Nebel, the author of BFSU, talks about this in his book Nebel's Elementary Education. He suggests that making these connections is what makes learning exciting. As an example, while studying geometric solids in math, "What does this solid (the pyramid shaped one) remind you of?" Dd6 was able to say that it looked like an Egyptian pyramid.

 

Of course, all of this is easier when you use curricula that utilize the Socratic method. BFSU is top-notch when it comes to this method of teaching. CSMP math also uses it a lot. I do wish that TOG included it for the G stage. Does anyone know of any others?

 

You sound so much like me and your girl like Adrian :lol:. We have such discussions all the time and this is why I am considering starting a slow transition to UG next year.

 

Now you had to go and mention Nebel's Elementary Education didn't you :tongue_smilie:? I have been trying to find that book for a while now. The site says that it is available through Amazon only but it is now only available through the marketplace, which would mean huge shipping for me. This is why I have not bought it yet. I wish Dr. Nebel offered it as an ebook. I would definitely get it. I hope he does some time soon, it's what I have been waiting for.

 

I love Dr. Nebel's science but the back and forth between threads just won't work for me or Adrian. We learn best by sticking to a topic. If it were just me I would not hesitate to set up a schedule for Adrian based on this approach but Adrian is the same way so I have to follow what is best for us. I will be using it as a resource though because we love the approach otherwise. Our math combo (Horizons/ Singapore) works great for us also, so I wouldn't change that. I am looking to apply the Socratic method my own way for this age group really, so personally I am not too concerned about the curricula offering it at this level. My dad has a huge collection of books. Yes, he was fascinated with Socrates also and owns and has read Plato's and Aristotle's works. Most of his books he has had leather binding put on with his initials on the spine. His books will be passed onto my family as I have always wanted :). Anyway, I would love to hear if you find other curricula that incorporates it, in the higher grades mostly in my case.

[Tracy]

You sound so much like me and your girl like Adrian :lol:. We have such discussions all the time and this is why I am considering starting a slow transition to UG next year.

 

I know, we keep meeting up on these same threads. It is too bad we don't live closer. I am not sure how far away you are, but I couldn't help but notice that you were having dinner last night while I was lamenting that I was up past my bedtime.:lol:

 

Concerning a transition to UG level, I didn't think there was any more in the way of Socratic discussions for UG level than LG level. Did I miss something, or is your dc just ready for the next level?

 

Now you had to go and mention Nebel's Elementary Education didn't you :tongue_smilie:? I have been trying to find that book for a while now. The site says that it is available through Amazon only but it is now only available through the marketplace, which would mean huge shipping for me. This is why I have not bought it yet. I wish Dr. Nebel offered it as an ebook. I would definitely get it. I hope he does some time soon, it's what I have been waiting for.

 

Well, I noticed that you can get it on Amazon used, and it ends being a little less than buying it new, even after shipping. Or you can do what I did and ask your library to buy it for you. :D

 

I am looking to apply the Socratic method my own way for this age group really, so personally I am not too concerned about the curricula offering it at this level.

 

Anyway, I would love to hear if you find other curricula that incorporates it, in the higher grades mostly in my case.

 

I like to do it on my own a lot, too. It is just nice sometimes to have someone else give me the ideas for what to ask or focus on.

 

I don't know about other curricula, but have you read the book Socratic Circles? It is for a classroom experience, but it is nevertheless very inspiring.

[Guest]

I know, we keep meeting up on these same threads. It is too bad we don't live closer. I am not sure how far away you are, but I couldn't help but notice that you were having dinner last night while I was lamenting that I was up past my bedtime.:lol:

 

We are many hours apart... by plane :tongue_smilie:, so closer is not much of an option. We are on the Pacific (British Columbia). It was almost 9pm here at the time (I think?). We have dinner late. A habit we picked up while overseas :lol:.

 

Concerning a transition to UG level, I didn't think there was any more in the way of Socratic discussions for UG level than LG level. Did I miss something, or is your dc just ready for the next level?

 

Nope, you didn't miss anything. The comment was unrelated to the Socratic discussion :lol:. I was just sharing that Adrian appears to be getting ready for the next level.

 

Well, I noticed that you can get it on Amazon used, and it ends being a little less than buying it new, even after shipping. Or you can do what I did and ask your library to buy it for you. :D

 

It seems to be out of print so I am not sure how my library would find it. I tried one of the sellers that ship outside the US and I would have to pay $12.50 on shipping alone :lol:. That would make it $37.50, a little more than I am prepared to pay right now. I would snatch it up if he were to put out an ebook. I would pay regular price for it if I could find it as an ebook but not prepared to pay $12.50 on shipping for it though. I periodically check Dr. Nebel's website to see if it has been added as an ebook but so far nothing.

 

I like to do it on my own a lot, too. It is just nice sometimes to have someone else give me the ideas for what to ask or focus on.

 

I don't know about other curricula, but have you read the book Socratic Circles? It is for a classroom experience, but it is nevertheless very inspiring.

 

Nope, I knew nothing about it. Thanks for posting it, I will keep it in mind :).

 

ETA: Do you own the book? If you have read it, did you find is useful?

[jewel7123]

Just bumping this up for you guys. :001_smile:

 

Oh, and Marie, I just checked Amazon, and it doesn't show Nebel's book to be out of print (or out of stock?) ???

 

Building Foundations of Scientific Understanding

[Guest]

Just bumping this up for you guys. :001_smile:

 

Oh, and Marie, I just checked Amazon, and it doesn't show Nebel's book to be out of print (or out of stock?) ???

 

Building Foundations of Scientific Understanding

 

This is the book we were talking about:

 

Nebel's Elementary Education

 

I already own and use BFSU

[jewel7123]

Oh, gotcha. My mistake! :001_smile:

[Guest]

Oh, gotcha. My mistake! :001_smile:

 

Yeah, it's an interesting book and a portion of it is dedicated to teaching science. My friend has it. I wish I had bought it back then when it was still available. Not sure why it is no longer in print :(.

[mamalbh]

In another thread, we were talking about the use of the Socratic method in the Grammar stage. So I was wondering if any of you out there are using it for your little ones and if you could give some examples of how it works for you.

 

My favorite example is when my oldest dd was 2yrs old. We had made a snowman while visiting my parents' house and it was time to leave. She asked me if we could take it home because she didn't want to leave it. I then asked her, "What happens to snow when it gets warm?" She smiled at me and said "It melts." I asked her if it was warm in the car - she said "yes." Then I asked her if we could take the snowman home in our car. She looked at me like I was the biggest idiot in the world, and with great pride said "No, it will melt."

 

I love this method to avoid tantrums in young children - this way it is them who makes the decision, not the parent or teacher (I worked in childcare many years.)

 

Oddly enough I find it harder to implement with my 7 & 9 yr old dds. I think I wore them out of it - they just want the answer. BUT I do notice they take time to figure things out a lot on their own instead of asking at all.

[Tracy]

My favorite example is when my oldest dd was 2yrs old. We had made a snowman while visiting my parents' house and it was time to leave. She asked me if we could take it home because she didn't want to leave it. I then asked her, "What happens to snow when it gets warm?" She smiled at me and said "It melts." I asked her if it was warm in the car - she said "yes." Then I asked her if we could take the snowman home in our car. She looked at me like I was the biggest idiot in the world, and with great pride said "No, it will melt."

 

This is exactly what I am looking for. At 2yo, you are helping them figure out their own immediate little world. But by 5-6yo, you can ask the same questions as they apply to other people, such as characters in a book, and you can explore alternate theories. "If you do "A," this will happen, but if you do "B," what will happen instead?"

[Flux]

My daughter and I had a fun "session" yesterday, not 100% socratic but mostly. She was digging her heels over math, being generally argumentative and writing all her numbers backwards on purpose. Very tiring. I asked her if she knew how the Romans wrote their numerals. She was VERY curious, I think because she thought she would get out of math! We use Rightstart, and I am sure they cover this in the future, but we haven't hit it yet. I drew a quick chart with 3 blocks for each number 1-10. Then we started wondering how she would write a number, if she had never seen a number? I put my bottle of water in front of her and asked her how she might show someone else that I had 1 bottle of water, if she had never been taught numbers. She decided she would make a check mark. I told her that that is very similar to what the Romans did and showed her an I and a 1 underneath. I asked her how she would show someone that I had 2 water bottles? She drew 2 checks. Rinse and repeat up to 3. Then I asked her to show me five. I commented that I couldn't easily tell whether there were 4, 5, or 6 checks. I used the line from RS asking What's special about 5? Her whole hand. And (unsocraticly!) told her they used a different symbol for 5 and showed her V. She looked at her hand and very excitedly said her hand had many Vs and that her pinky and thumb made one big V that held all her fingers! I asked her how she might draw a 4. 4 checks. I said I could tell it was 4, but maybe if I was distracted I might get it wrong. I asked what was special about 4 (pulling again from what RS teaches about what's special about 9). She said it was 1 less than 5. So I wrote IV while saying, 1 less than 5. At this point I stopped asking her to give me her version, because she was putting it together so well. I asked her, If she was a Roman, how might she draw a 6? She had no idea and looked frustrated. Again I pulled from RS and said, 6 is...? 5 and 1, says she. Ok...VI. I hadn't even finished writing it down, when she yanked the pencil out of my hand and wrote VII in the next slot. She was thrilled with that one! Again, I asked how she might write a 10, if she were a Roman? She was positively vibrating at this point! She drew two fives stuck together, like this 55, but one was backwards. I wondered out loud if maybe that's what they did, but reminded her we are Romans and 5 is V. She excitedly drew a W. I told her that was very close, but no tomato and asked how else she could stick 2 Vs together. She drew a diamond. I asked her if there was another way? An X! Sweet! I asked how she would write a 9 and at first she took a line away from the X to make a Y, all I had to do was show her the 4 and we were done! She was shaking her head in wonder at the paper and sighed to herself tiredly, "That was awesome." I was giddy myself. I said, "You told me you didn't know Roman numerals! Did you tell me a fib?!" She exclaimed, "I didn't know I knew!"

 

Now, I know they say Roman numerals came from tally marks and that IV is just an abbreviation for IIIIV, and IX is similarly abbreviated from 1111V1111X, and that I didn't "teach" them to her in precisely the right way from that perspective. BUT, it was very easy to intuitively figure out the way she did, and her sense of pride over it is HUGE. I will go back over it at a later date.

 

Sorry for the disjointed nature. I am a rambler and a horrible writer and am hurrying to type while making breakfast. I just wanted to share because we had so much fun and was an easy "lesson" to get your Socratic feet wet.